Occupy Wall Street?

[Ella]

Tanked as compared to what ??? did he just start investing when he was in his 60s???

Well goodness, tanked as opposed to 5 years ago. Tanked from 2008. Everybody is in that boat. It’s just that I’m younger and am going to at least wait things out - not like I have a choice but I have time. But heck, everyone I know has all lost a lot of value in our retirement.
Anyway, I’m not sure what if any thing is doing good in the investment world. Individual stocks maybe but isn’t that really risky?

 

[estesbob]

Well goodness, tanked as opposed to 5 years ago. Tanked from 2008. Everybody is in that boat. It’s just that I’m younger and am going to at least wait things out - not like I have a choice but I have time. But heck, everyone I know has all lost a lot of value in our retirement.
Anyway, I’m not sure what if any thing is doing good in the investment world. Individual stocks maybe but isn’t that really risky?

They hVe lost value over the last 3 years but should be well ahead over the long term

 

[Leegal]

I wouldn’t want a mess in my front yard either. I am not unsympathetic to your situation. I don’t think people are going to just go away though. They might not assemble as they are now but they are not going to just go away and be happy either.

I am curious how less federal government will help when the lax federal government we have had has spawned such failures as the housing bubble and the collapse of the banking industry. Now some are going to blame Freddie and Fannie for the housing bubble. But those bad loans would not have been speculated on in the first place if they weren’t bundled up and hidden with good ones by - criminals, frankly. Who as far as I know have never been punished or had their ill - gotten profits taken from them for that little scheme.

I should explain. I meant less federal government interference in states’ rights issues and back to the true principles of federalism. It’s gone on too long – decades. And it will continue unless we recognize that the first objective of government is to expand itself. I just don’t want to see the federal government infringing on states’ rights issues that are in the Constitution.

On the other hand, I could stand to see less federal bloat overall. As to the failure of the federal government, I blame Congress most of all. We waste their resources, and that of other agencies. on what I feel are non-issues, while the real problems that face this country never to get addressed. That’s when they go on vacation.

And what other body can you name that can vote itself raises?

Further, every time the Congress tries and regulate the banks (for the little guy), the banks all manage to find a way to hit it to us in another way. With the banks being able to borrow at 0%, why are interest rates that banks charge still high while the interest the banks gives remains so low? It’s free money after all – and ours. If Congress would interfere, the banks would find another way to bleed us. I have no faith in Congress being able to do anything with any real effect.

It came as no surprise to me after BOA announced it was going to charge $60 per year for use of a debit card (yet banks long encouraged the use of the debit card), the OWS protest began soon after. I was in sympathy at first and understood that people were fed up, as I am. However, OWS has descended into other agendas.

And that came about because Congress lowered the amount that the banks could charge a vendor who collects his money from a customer with a debit card – called a “swipe fee.” This misdirected help from Congress resulted in the banks attempting to find other ways to get the money – from the consumer – because the banks are going to make it up somehow even if they have to bleed us dry.

I don’t have the answer, but neither does it seem that Congress has an anwer. Anyway, I’m sure they are ready to go on their year end break any minute now, while leaving the expiration of the unemployment benefits unaddressed.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Look ladies and gentlemen, the system here is corrupt. Why is it that the 1% of this nation has more wealth than the 99% of the rest put together? When you hear of distribution of wealth, people automatically call it communism and wrong, but this doesn’t seem right either. I’ve seen poor neighborhoods where the apartment buildings have signs stating chemicals in apartments are known to cause cancer. These are the cheapest apartments available for the poorest. They have no other option but to live there because that is all they can afford. Now you tell me if that is fair?

The 1% has more because they work harder and they work smarter than the other 99%.

They get more education [formal or informal] and don’t use drugs or alcohol and keep their noses to the grindstones [which means they work a lot of hours … not 40 hours per week; more like 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, with a lot of travel to field locations and a lot of work-related reading at night or while traveling.].

I have friends who started their own businesses … sometimes, franchises … and they put in those kinds of hours and they ended up doing extremely well.

That’s how the 1% got there.

 

[mgoforth]

The 1% has more because they work harder and they work smarter than the other 99%.

They get more education [formal or informal] and don’t use drugs or alcohol and keep their noses to the grindstones [which means they work a lot of hours … not 40 hours per week; more like 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, with a lot of travel to field locations and a lot of work-related reading at night or while traveling.].

I have friends who started their own businesses … sometimes, franchises … and they put in those kinds of hours and they ended up doing extremely well.

That’s how the 1% got there.

Sure, that makes sense. If you dedicate your heart and soul to serving Mammon, you certainly deserve your reward.

"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Matthew 19:24

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Sure, that makes sense. If you dedicate your heart and soul to serving Mammon, you certainly deserve your reward.

"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Matthew 19:24

It’s also known as work.

Some people seem to be allergic to doing work. Which is called “work”; it’t not called “fun and games”.

But you wanted an explanation of the 1%.

Work.

Be a producer, not a non-producer.

Nothing to do with Mammon; still plenty of time for Church and charitable volunteer activities.

Not a lot of time for goofing off, though.

Envy seems inappropriate, somehow, just because some people are producers and we can get the benefit of their production, but some people want it for free.

And here, for those who didn’t seem to recognize it, is a discussion of Cloward-Piven:

discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2505

• which a form of political-economic sabotage.

 

[mgoforth]

It’s also known as work.

But you wanted an explanation of the 1%.

Work.

Be a producer, not a non-producer.

And if I was to become a producer, would I deserve to be rich? Does anyone deserve that when even one person in the world is suffering because they don’t have enough?

And even if every human on the planet could be rich and have anything they desired, would that really be a good thing? The verse I posted is simple. It is hard for a rich man to get to Heaven, because you have to spend so much time serving your wealth (yourself) and ignoring God and your fellow man in order to ever become so rich.

Hard work is one thing. Devoting your life to serving yourself is another. There are plenty of hard-working volunteers who will die poor, but they have “produced” something far better for their neighbors through love than the 1% will ever have in their bank account.

Instead of admiring the 1% club members for their hard (self-serving) work, just say a prayer that the club members will start to care more about others than themselves.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

And if I was to become a producer, would I deserve to be rich? Does anyone deserve that when even one person in the world is suffering because they don’t have enough?

And even if every human on the planet could be rich and have anything they desired, would that really be a good thing? The verse I posted is simple. It is hard for a rich man to get to Heaven, because you have to spend so much time serving your wealth (yourself) and ignoring God and your fellow man in order to ever become so rich.

Hard work is one thing. Devoting your life to serving yourself is another.

Every laborer is entitled to his pay and if he is really productive, then he is entitled to really good pay.

Some people seem to want to argue both sides … not entitled to be well rewarded because it’s not fair. But also not entitled to be well rewarded because they might be selling their souls … OR, they might NOT be selling their souls.

Not YOUR job to make that determination.

YOU are not the judge of he or she who works hard.

Some people thing hard work is merely showing up.

 

[mgoforth]

Every laborer is entitled to his pay and if he is really productive, then he is entitled to really good pay.

Some people seem to want to argue both sides … not entitled to be well rewarded because it’s not fair. But also not entitled to be well rewarded because they might be selling their souls … OR, they might NOT be selling their souls.

Not YOUR job to make that determination.

YOU are not the judge of he or she who works hard.

Some people thing hard work is merely showing up.

That’s true, Monte. It won’t be me judging “he or she who works hard”. As I said, hard work is not wrong. “…store up for yourselves treasure in Heaven.” Hoarding wealth for oneself on Earth IS wrong. That’s not my judgment…it comes from Christ. Although I’m sure a rich person could pay to have their own Bible printed without all those offensive passages about sharing and giving everything to the poor.

And wasn’t I the one who said that if someone works hard for Mammon, he or she is certainly entitled to his/her pay?

 

[cmforte]

That’s true, Monte. It won’t be me judging “he or she who works hard”. As I said, hard work is not wrong. “…store up for yourselves treasure in Heaven.” Hoarding wealth for oneself on Earth IS wrong. That’s not my judgment…it comes from Christ. Although I’m sure a rich person could pay to have their own Bible printed without all those offensive passages about sharing and giving everything to the poor.

And wasn’t I the one who said that if someone works hard for Mammon, he or she is certainly entitled to his/her pay?

Why all this hate for “rich people”? Lots of “rich people” give to charity. Do you know a rich person personally? One that outright refuses to donate anything to is/her church or a charity? It just seems like these “Occupiers” are stereotyping and generalizing all so-called “rich people” without differentiating between individuals …(except for Oprah and Kenye West…somehow those rich people or “1%” have immunity!!)

-Chris

 

[mgoforth]

Why all this hate for “rich people”? Lots of “rich people” give to charity. Do you know a rich person personally? One that outright refuses to donate anything to is/her church or a charity? It just seems like these “Occupiers” are stereotyping and generalizing all so-called “rich people” without differentiating between individuals …(except for Oprah and Kenye West…somehow those rich people or “1%” have immunity!!)

-Chris

I don’t hate rich people. Yes, plenty of rich people do give to charity and that’s good, but how much do they give? I don’t mean how many dollars, I mean do they give enough that it actually affects the luxury of their lives? I’m sure you know the parable of the rich man and the poor widow. And I do know some people who would be considered wealthy. They’ve always been kind to me but I don’t know the details of what they do with their money. I would say they seem to be disconnected from the problems of poor people when we’ve talked about them…but that’s just my opinion. I really try not to judge any individual because as Monte said, that’s not my place.

I do think our society is wrong (and yes, evil) for idolizing wealth and materialism. It’s hard not to question the love of someone who feels like they need to keep millions of dollars for themselves, even if they earned it through hard work, rather than help people who really could use their help to survive. And it’s even harder not to question people who think they deserve to be rich. There’s no such thing as a “self-made man”, every one of us is given talents and abilities by God. To use those gifts and then think “I did this all by myself so I deserve to praise myself with so much more money than I really need”…well I don’t know…it just seems wrong on many levels. Sorry if that offends, but it’s how I feel.

 

[Captain_America]

I honestly believe the bulk of people do not at all hate rich people.

But it’s incorrect to think lobbyists working on behalf of the wealthy are not being successful. Read Don Peck’s book Pinched, which cites a serious study done on lobbying and class interests: over the past 20 years, the rich have won on EVERY issue.

The fall out, or consequences, have been pretty disastrous for the nation’s economy.

But I don’t think there’s genuine hatred. It’s just recognition that group behavior has been causing dysfunction in our economic system, and that the economic system has important tasks to fulfill for our entire nation, rather than a relative handful of fat-cat operatives.

 

[JimG]

Well, we could do what our fore-fathers did in the U.S. and revolt, and start another government. Not being an ocean away from the current government would make it much more difficult.

We could do like the French and set up guillotines and chop off heads.

BUT a better thing to do would be to re-instate laws like Glass-Steagall, and create new legislation that prevents things from happening like Bear Sterns and Enron. Make it illegal to bundle together things like bad housing loans whilst hiding them with what look like good housing loans, and speculate on them in the market, with only the few at the top knowing that the product they’re selling is based on fraud. BTW wall-street is starting to do the same sort of thing with bad car loans. That’s just a couple of things we could do, and I think we should do them. But make no mistake. We dismiss the growing number of people who are unhappy at our peril. If we do nothing to correct the economic and social inequities that are challenging us we will only make a revolt of some kind more likely. Thus history repeats itself again. THAT is why it should matter to you.

But prohibiting the bundling of loans would do nothing to stop the housing bubble. When a market is severely overpriced, the bubble will eventually burst, whether there exists a secondary market or not.

(The French revolution merely declared war on the Catholic Church, massacred innocent peasants and innocent nuns, shed a lot of blood while merely paving the way for Napoleon to become a dictator.)

 

[Nate13]

I honestly believe the bulk of people do not at all hate rich people.

But it’s incorrect to think lobbyists working on behalf of the wealthy are not being successful. Read Don Peck’s book Pinched, which cites a serious study done on lobbying and class interests: over the past 20 years, the rich have won on EVERY issue.

The fall out, or consequences, have been pretty disastrous for the nation’s economy.

But I don’t think there’s genuine hatred. It’s just recognition that group behavior has been causing dysfunction in our economic system, and that the economic system has important tasks to fulfill for our entire nation, rather than a relative handful of fat-cat operatives.

So wait I’m confused. George Soros does not fit into your, “rich have won every issue” idea here not to mention all the other far left rich people. I think a lot of rich people out there would disagree with you haha. Even the occupiers are smart enough to know there are rich conservatives and their are rich liberals. If you want proof that this is a far left group that is as far as you need to look. The occupiers at Wall St. walked right by George Soros’ house to go protest in front of a conservative rich guys house haha. This is a group with a majority of far-left minded people, with an agenda.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Why all this hate for “rich people”? Lots of “rich people” give to charity. Do you know a rich person personally? One that outright refuses to donate anything to is/her church or a charity? It just seems like these “Occupiers” are stereotyping and generalizing all so-called “rich people” without differentiating between individuals …(except for Oprah and Kenye West…somehow those rich people or “1%” have immunity!!)

-Chris

Entertainers, sports figures, and other liberals get a blanket exemption from criticism. Unless the individuals happen to be conservatives.

If you ask people whether the wealthy pay more or less a share of taxes now than 30 years ago, I would bet because of all the talk from the liberal press that most people would say less. The actual numbers from the IRS indicate the top 1% of income earners paid roughly 20% of income taxes in 1980 and paid about 40% of income taxes in 2007. A friend of mine was making a post on facebook about the disparity in income between people and implying that was why our government was in trouble financially. When I posted the facts, I was unfriended on facebook because he wasn’t interested in the facts, only that which was emotionally satisfying to him. I refuse to keep feeding the beast before much less rational people than you make a bigger mess of our country than it already is.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

I don’t hate rich people. Yes, plenty of rich people do give to charity and that’s good, but how much do they give? I don’t mean how many dollars, I mean do they give enough that it actually affects the luxury of their lives? I’m sure you know the parable of the rich man and the poor widow. And I do know some people who would be considered wealthy. They’ve always been kind to me but I don’t know the details of what they do with their money. I would say they seem to be disconnected from the problems of poor people when we’ve talked about them…but that’s just my opinion. **I really try not to judge any individual because as Monte said, that’s not my place. **

I do think our society is wrong (and yes, evil) for idolizing wealth and materialism. It’s hard not to question the love of someone who feels like they need to keep millions of dollars for themselves, even if they earned it through hard work, rather than help people who really could use their help to survive. And it’s even harder not to question people who think they deserve to be rich. There’s no such thing as a “self-made man”, every one of us is given talents and abilities by God. To use those gifts and then think “I did this all by myself so I deserve to praise myself with so much more money than I really need”…well I don’t know…it just seems wrong on many levels. Sorry if that offends, but it’s how I feel.

Well, sorry, but you need to work harder at not judging others.

Those highly compensated individuals operate companies that employ millions of people to provide goods and services for everyone in our society.

So, to your mind, in your thinking, managing and operating and providing those employment opportunities don’t count for anything?

There are literally thousands of companies out there that reward their top people very well. What part of your experience tells you that you are smarter than those folks and their boards of directors in terms of compensation?

What part of your experience qualifies you to be dictator … [or to think like a dictator].

Maybe you could start up your own company and provide a service or product that other people would voluntarily pay for with their own money … meaning: no government subsidies … and show us … demonstrate for us … how you employ the principles that you advocate.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

I don’t hate rich people. Yes, plenty of rich people do give to charity and that’s good, but how much do they give? I don’t mean how many dollars, I mean do they give enough that it actually affects the luxury of their lives? I’m sure you know the parable of the rich man and the poor widow. And I do know some people who would be considered wealthy. They’ve always been kind to me but I don’t know the details of what they do with their money. I would say they seem to be disconnected from the problems of poor people when we’ve talked about them…but that’s just my opinion. I really try not to judge any individual because as Monte said, that’s not my place.

I do think our society is wrong (and yes, evil) for idolizing wealth and materialism. It’s hard not to question the love of someone who feels like they need to keep millions of dollars for themselves, even if they earned it through hard work, rather than help people who really could use their help to survive. And it’s even harder not to question people who think they deserve to be rich. There’s no such thing as a “self-made man”, every one of us is given talents and abilities by God. To use those gifts and then think “I did this all by myself so I deserve to praise myself with so much more money than I really need”…well I don’t know…it just seems wrong on many levels. Sorry if that offends, but it’s how I feel.

Re-reading this … I think you need to look inside yourself.

What is your deep inner motivation for judging others?

[sorry … you are entitled to your opinions … and to your feelings … but you need to ask if your feelings are reasonable … or if perhaps your emotional response is being manipulated by some outside influences … I don’t know … the media? … some personal need.]

[sorry, again, but you stated “it’s how I feel” … so the question needs to be asked: is the use of *feelings appropriate in what is basically an economic policy discussion?]

 

[mgoforth]

Well, sorry, but you need to work harder at not judging others.

Those highly compensated individuals operate companies that employ millions of people to provide goods and services for everyone in our society.

So, to your mind, in your thinking, managing and operating and providing those employment opportunities don’t count for anything?

There are literally thousands of companies out there that reward their top people very well. What part of your experience tells you that you are smarter than those folks and their boards of directors in terms of compensation?

What part of your experience qualifies you to be dictator … [or to think like a dictator].

Maybe you could start up your own company and provide a service or product that other people would voluntarily pay for with their own money … meaning: no government subsidies … and show us … demonstrate for us … how you employ the principles that you advocate.

Monte, I’m sorry that you seem to be taking this so personally. Let me try to be as clear as I can with my replies to you from now on.

Which individual did I “judge”? I can’t recall naming any names. “Those highly compensated individuals” are a class of people…I’m speaking in generalities, never specifically about any one person. Also, I’m not judging that class of people. Judgment means to condemn someone. I never said that any individual or any class of people are 100% guaranteed to end up in hell. That would be a judgment and a sin. What I did say is that if they don’t change their ways, they’re in danger of ending up there. That’s called warning or admonishing a sinner, and it comes from love believe it or not. It’s also something all Catholics are called to do.

“He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins” James 5:20

I actually feel sorry for the rich. I don’t believe a person could be very close to God and at the same time feel the need to keep millions sitting in their personal bank account. Please note I said “personal account”…as in not used to create jobs, but used for the personal pleasures of the owner of that account.

In the latter part of your response, you went off on a bit of a tangent about job creation, me thinking I’m smarter than board members, me wanting to be a dictator, advising me to start a company, etc… I’m not sure what the purpose of all that is other than to distract from the main point I was trying to make? You’re perfectly aware that I never made any of those statements.

Monte, I have no desire to be rich or to start a company and make millions of dollars. Why would I want that temptation? I’m not sure I would handle having a lot of personal wealth any better than most people in that situation do (not very well). Perhaps you could stop attacking me, and at least attack my message directly - although if you could manage to discuss it without attacking anything, that would be ideal.

 

[mgoforth]

Re-reading this … I think you need to look inside yourself.

What is your deep inner motivation for judging others?

[sorry … you are entitled to your opinions … and to your feelings … but you need to ask if your feelings are reasonable … or if perhaps your emotional response is being manipulated by some outside influences … I don’t know … the media? … some personal need.]

[sorry, again, but you stated “it’s how I feel” … so the question needs to be asked: is the use of *feelings

appropriate in what is basically an economic policy discussion?]

I probably shouldn’t even respond to such blatant attempts to bait me, but I’ll do my best to keep the response charitable.

My inner motivations are love and hate. Love for sinners, hatred of their sins.

My “emotional response” is being “manipulated” by the words of our Lord:

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal." Matthew 6:20-21

"I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings." Luke 16:9

…and by the example of the apostles:

"Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need." Acts 2:45

"For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales and lay them at the apostles’ feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need." Acts 4:34-35

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to post these verses.

 

[Ella]

They hVe lost value over the last 3 years but should be well ahead over the long term

What long term? He’s retirement age now.