Octuplets

[Angels_Unaware]

I am more upset over this article

latimes.com/news/local/la-me-octuplets15-2009feb15,0,4935931.story

than the fact that there are 14 children who are healthy and alive and a mother who needs help raising them because she made the poor decision to have them alone without resources.

If there are people on this thread who think it is acceptable to tell the mother’s publicist that they want her to die and that they want to rip out the mother’s womb, then I don’t think you have much business calling yourself a Christian.

The woman caught in adultery that Jesus forgave was no saint, I am sure. We don’t stone people for making poor, misguided, narcissistic decisions. If we did, we might be stoning you or someone in your familly as well who was lucky enough not to have these kinds of consequences from their poor decision making.

I am disturbed by this precisely because women and children are vulnerable, and people are vicious to families who don’t have husbands. That bothers me. They get to be scapegoats for everyone.

 

[adelore]

As I read all the postings, it just amazed me on how much Bashing of this women there was.

Ok I will agree how she got pregnant is against Catholic Teaching and wrong. But is she Catholic?

As Catholics, since we do vaule life as a gift from God, **Shame on anyone **who was so busy bashing this women for what she did to get this children, enough to let it Blind you to the fact these children are now here and need our Prayers!

Where is the Catholic love and prayers at? Can all the bashing and out rage change the facts? No! Can how it happened be undone? No!

Forgive us our Tresspasses as we forgive other’s who have Tresspassed against us… I guess we all need to be reminded of what Jesus said in this prayer. Whom among us has not Tresspassed? Let him cast the first stone, who has never sinned…

May the first Catholic/Christian please step forward who has Never sinned. What…where is everyone now? Ok we have all sinned.

Now is the time to be the Catholics we profess to be and start sending Prayers up to our Heavenly Father to Help this women and her 14 children. We don’t need to stand in judgement of this women, (that is not our job) we need to pray for her and those children.

Start turning around all the anger, outrage, and judgemental attitude and use that same amount of energy and Pray your hearts out for this women and her children.

For those of you who just can’t seem to get past how and what she did to recieve these children may I remind you again…

Forgive us our Tresspasses as we forgive other’s who have Tresspassed against us… I guess we all need to be reminded of what Jesus said in this prayer. Whom among us has not Tresspassed? Let him cast the first stone, who has never sinned…

 

[lynnareyno]

If there are people on this thread who think it is acceptable to tell the mother’s publicist that they want her to die and that they want to rip out the mother’s womb, then I don’t think you have much business calling yourself a Christian.

No one on this thread has even remotely suggested such harsh treatment. The news article does not identify the writers of these messages as Christians.
As Christians we love her and the children, but do not like her actions.
I would like the taxpayers to pay for a Cruise and expensive clothes…should you? Of course not…I don’t need these things, but I want them. Just like she didn’t need more children but wanted them. So why should we pay for them?
Correction: These children are not healthy and neither are several of her other children. And she knew that before the IVF.
So yes, she is selfish.
And a married woman should not be considered selfish if she is bringing children into a family environment where there is an income. Having children is not selfish…but expecting others to care for and pay for them is. Children are not a right, but a blessing in the right circumstances.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

So yes, she is selfish.
And a married woman should not be considered selfish if she is bringing children into a family environment where there is an income. Having children is not selfish…but expecting others to care for and pay for them is. Children are not a right, but a blessing in the right circumstances.

You have a reading comprehension problem. Why don’t you try to read the post you are trying to respond to again. The point, which you have failed to grasp, is that a married couple can be selfish and narcissistic, can have inadequate income to raise multiple birth children, and can immorally produce children with IVF, and while it is somewhat better that at least two parents are there rather than just one, it is not OK for them to produce children through IVF just because they are married. And yet, they don’t receive threats from strangers to dis-embowel them. Apparently, that threat sat just fine with you. Why? Because she is single? That’s the point. You just don’t seem to get it.

I have a sneaking suspicion that you have the same hateful attitude toward anyone who doesn’t come from a “perfect family”, regardless of whether or not it is their fault or they chose it or what kind of character they have. God help my 42-year old single friend who adopted a child with special needs if she meets anyone with this attitude in Church.

The point is that what she did was misguided, immoral, and a burden on society but we do not threaten and hurl insults at people for being misguided and immoral. I would help this woman, which would include helping her with her psychological problems, not threaten and sneer at her. This is another reason to stop IVF.

 

[lynnareyno]

You have a reading comprehension problem. Why don’t you try to read the post you are trying to respond to again. The point, which you have failed to grasp, is that a married couple can be selfish and narcissistic, can have inadequate income to raise multiple birth children, and can immorally produce children with IVF, and while it is somewhat better that at least two parents are there rather than just one, it is not OK for them to produce children through IVF just because they are married. And yet, they don’t receive threats from strangers to dis-embowel them. Apparently, that threat sat just fine with you. Why? Because she is single? That’s the point. You just don’t seem to get it.

I have a sneaking suspicion that you have the same hateful attitude toward anyone who doesn’t come from a “perfect family”, regardless of whether or not it is their fault or they chose it or what kind of character they have. God help my 42-year old single friend who adopted a child with special needs if she meets anyone with this attitude in Church.

The point is that what she did was misguided, immoral, and a burden on society but we do not threaten and hurl insults at people for being misguided and immoral. I would help this woman, which would include helping her with her psychological problems, not threaten and sneer at her. This is another reason to stop IVF.

How totaly rude, unChristian and presumptious of you. I do not have a reading comprehension problem, but you appartently do. I stated that no one on on this thread, including myself has condoned the viscious attacks on this woman. I think they are terrible and unthinkable. How you could assumed that I agreed is beyond belief. Why these horrible comments were made, I don’t know. I don’t presume to read the hearts and minds of others as you seem capable of doing.
You have assumed that they are being made because she is single and then you disparage married women for having large familier. Your logic if faulty.
Again, no one on this thread has threatened or sneered at her.
Quoting a news article, assuming intent and then accusing like-mindedness to the posters does nothing to add to the discussion. Keep on topic of what is said in this thread.

And we agree…this whole mess started with the IVF process and shouldn’t be allowed.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

How totaly rude, unChristian and presumptious of you. I do not have a reading comprehension problem, but you appartently do. I stated that no one on on this thread, including myself has condoned the viscious attacks on this woman. I think they are terrible and unthinkable. How you could assumed that I agreed is beyond belief. Why these horrible comments were made, I don’t know. I don’t presume to read the hearts and minds of others as you seem capable of doing.
You have assumed that they are being made because she is single and then you disparage married women for having large familier. Your logic if faulty.
Again, no one on this thread has threatened or sneered at her.
Quoting a news article, assuming intent and then accusing like-mindedness to the posters does nothing to add to the discussion. Keep on topic of what is said in this thread.

And we agree…this whole mess started with the IVF process and shouldn’t be allowed.

You either have a reading comprehension problem or you willfully twisted and ignored my point. Which is it?

You said,

So yes, she is selfish.
And a married woman should not be considered selfish if she is bringing children into a family environment where there is an income.

In response to this,

The point is that because she is single, people feel comfortable calling her “sinful and selfish”, but if she were married, she might have been just as self-absorbed and narcissistic, but nobody would portray her that way.

Or do you just have problems admitting that maybe its true that people wrongfully judge married couples as having valid reasons for having IVF, and refrain from threatening to dis-embowel them, while single parents have an additional burden of prejudice that is not fair?

Do you believe that married mothers can be narcissistic and self-absorbed, or is that just for single mothers?

 

[lynnareyno]

AngelsUnaware;

You are a brick wall with a one track mind…single vs married motherhood. Start a thread on that subject if you wish to discuss that topic. This topic is the recently born octuplets in CA.

Do you believe that married mothers can be narcissistic and self-absorbed, or is that just for single mothers?

Yes, I believe that married mothers, single mothers and in fact all people can be selfish and naccissistic.
IVF is always wrong.

FYI:
I am a single mother
I was addressing posts regarding large families not created by IVF
I do not believe in bullying, threatening or sneering at any one in any circumstances at any time.

Can I make myself any clearer???

 

[Angels_Unaware]

AngelsUnaware;

You are a brick wall with a one track mind…single vs married motherhood. Start a thread on that subject if you wish to discuss that topic. This topic is the recently born octuplets in CA

I am shocked. I am outraged. What a un-christian comment. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Actually, the topic of single v. married mothers was not the point.

I was observing that I doubt people would be heaping scorn and death threats on her if she were married. That was the only point. Not that she should be applauded, or that it’s ok to choose to allow a child to go without a father. I obviously don’t agree.

The point is that married families have done this sort of thing, and it is just as unnatural and wrong in those families. It was inherently selfish of those married women to refuse to accept their infertility as well, and to expect their bills to be paid for by lifetime donations from Pampers. Even though these families are much less extreme examples, because they are two-parent homes, they still were imperfect people making wrong fertility choices and they still have been some burden on society.

But they don’t get death threats. I think at least part of the reason why Suleman has is because people are comfortable bullying single women. I am sorry, but I do believe single mothers are vulnerable and get bullied and taken advantage of by people.

 

[lynnareyno]

I am sorry, but I do believe single mothers are vulnerable and get bullied and taken advantage of by people.

I am a single mother and I know many others. None of us have been bullied, sneered at or taken advantage of because of it.
I don’t buy into the “I’m such a victim” philosophy. But to each his own and we can agree to disagree on this point. We may have had different life experiences.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I am a single mother and I know many others. None of us have been bullied, sneered at or taken advantage of because of it.
I don’t buy into the “I’m such a victim” philosophy. But to each his own and we can agree to disagree on this point. We may have had different life experiences.

It does not make a person a victim to acknowledge that people are treated differently on the basis of superficial things.

Prejudice exists. Denying that it exists is not equivalent to overcoming it. In fact, I don’t think anyone can overcome prejudices against them until they acknowledge them.

 

[Col40]

I think she has some serious issues. I think her doctor was irresponsible. Who agrees to implant 8 embryos in any woman, period? The health concerns for all involved is the biggest red flag!

This woman is not equipped to care for 14 children—financially or otherwise. Her own mother has already said she doesn’t support this decision.

The whole thing should have stopped before she had her first child–let alone all 14. What she’s doing is by-passing God’s intention for having children—that a mother and father create those children as an expression of love (I refuse to use the term “make love” because you can make a lot of things–but you don’t “make love”). But even if these doctors didn’t believe in God’s will–they should have asked themselves–is this woman physically, emotionally and supportively ready to be a parent of 14 children? Obviously, there is doubt in that regard.

At this point though—these children are here for whatever reason, so let’s hope that those who normally embrace families of such a large size (hello–17 and Counting) will offer these children the same support–even if their mother’s thought process (that she can mother 14 without a husband or any noticeable means of income) is decidely flawed.

 

[lynnareyno]

does not make a person a victim to acknowledge that people are treated differently on the basis of superficial things.

Prejudice exists. Denying that it exists is not equivalent to overcoming it. In fact, I don’t think anyone can overcome prejudices against them until they acknowledge them.

I’m not looking for a discussion on social justice tonight.
Peace be with you!

Let us pray for 14 children in CA.
And children everywhere.

 

[Sarabande]

As I read all the postings, it just amazed me on how much Bashing of this women there was.

Ok I will agree how she got pregnant is against Catholic Teaching and wrong. But is she Catholic?

As Catholics, since we do vaule life as a gift from God, **Shame on anyone **who was so busy bashing this women for what she did to get this children, enough **to let it Blind **you to the fact these children are now here and need our Prayers!

Where is the Catholic love and prayers at? Can all the bashing and out rage change the facts? No! Can how it happened be undone? No!

Forgive us our Tresspasses as we forgive other’s who have Tresspassed against us… I guess we all need to be reminded of what Jesus said in this prayer. Whom among us has not Tresspassed? Let him cast the first stone, who has never sinned…

May the first Catholic/Christian please step forward who has Never sinned. What…where is everyone now? Ok we have all sinned.

Now is the time to be the Catholics we profess to be and start sending Prayers up to our Heavenly Father to Help this women and her 14 children. We don’t need to stand in judgement of this women, (that is not our job) we need to pray for her and those children.

Start turning around all the anger, outrage, and judgemental attitude and use that same amount of energy and Pray your hearts out for this women and her children.

For those of you who just can’t seem to get past how and what she did to recieve these children may I remind you again…

Forgive us our Tresspasses as we forgive other’s who have Tresspassed against us… I guess we all need to be reminded of what Jesus said in this prayer. Whom among us has not Tresspassed? Let him cast the first stone, who has never sinned…

Actually, I think many of the posters have continually said that this woman and her children need our prayers. Based on my own reading, most, if not all of the posters, have gotten past how she conceived these children and are very concerned on how she will be caring for these children. At the same time, because this thread was started when the news first came out, it was very new and shocking and people were expressing their initial sentiments on the whole situation, which is a very natural thing. As we all know, feelings and sentiments change as they get more information, ponder the situation more, etc. Those who have just been reading it now, may look at it with the eyes of someone who has past those initial sentiments, forgetting when the thread was begun. In my view, most of the discussion presented feelings of more shock and sadness for the mother and her children. I know that is how I’ve felt regarding this situation from the very beginning - sadness and anxiety for the children, as well as for the psychological well-being of the mother.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Children are not a right, but a blessing in the right circumstances.

**actually children are a blessing. the end. **
circumstances do not affect their blessing status.
people sadly unable to see a blessing for what it is does not make the blessing any less so.

It does not make a person a victim to acknowledge that people are treated differently on the basis of superficial things.

True, but I don’t think the purposeful unwed motherhood is superficial. Rather I think it a major sin.

---

And those children are going to need lots of help.
Which it is our christian duty to provide to at least some degree if we are able.
If we aren’t helping sinners, then there’s no one to help.
The beatitudes do not come with a disclaimer of, “Unless you feel the naked and hungry and sick deserve it.” to let us off the hook for doing our christian duty. frustrating though it admittedly can be at times.

 

[lynnareyno]

actually children are a blessing. the end.
circumstances do not affect their blessing status.
people sadly unable to see a blessing for what it is does not make the blessing any less so.

You are right…I stand corrected.
Children are always a blessing.
Let us pray for them!

 

[Gerard_Nadal]

Humans were not designed by our Creator to have litters.

When IVF emerged in 1978, we were told that this would be liberating for couples who were otherwise barren. We were told that this would enhance fertility and family growth. We were told that government should have no say in family planning.

Now we see that through this same technology, in the Suleman case, there are calls for the government to step in and regulate through ethics how many babies are too many in one pregnancy, or for one family.

This may yet provide the government with the precedent it needs to begin regulating reproduction. The full immorality of IVF has yet to blossom. When it does, far from liberating us as promised, it will enslave us all.

 

[queen_anne78]

Humans were not designed by our Creator to have litters.

When IVF emerged in 1978, we were told that this would be liberating for couples who were otherwise barren. We were told that this would enhance fertility and family growth. We were told that government should have no say in family planning.

Now we see that through this same technology, in the Suleman case, there are calls for the government to step in and regulate through ethics how many babies are too many in one pregnancy, or for one family.

This may yet provide the government with the precedent it needs to begin regulating reproduction. The full immorality of IVF has yet to blossom. When it does, far from liberating us as promised, it will enslave us all.

exactly. The Church is so wise to teach against IVF.

 

[samcarter14]

Do you know one more thing that bothers me… If she would have just implanted a couple embryos, maybe just given birth to one or two of them, and destroyed the rest, even if people would have known she destroyed the rest, it wouldn’t be a big deal. But since she actually implanted every single embryo they “created” for her, everyone is up in arms. Either way, the root of the problem was that these embryos were created in a manner totally contrary to natural law, in an immoral manner, thus allowing for a situation that should not have occured. Once they were created, why do so many people think it was so much worse for these babies to be born as opposed to left frozen somewhere perhaps to be used for experiments, totally contrary to human dignity, and destroyed. I do agree that implanting 6 at once sounds risky (although the guideline for women 40 and over is at most 5, so there is a chance that even following the guidelines, a woman could end up with a large number of children at once), but I don’t know what the reasoning behind it was (she said they had done it before and never had such a large pregnancy, she also wanted to make sure she implanted them all). My point is, had a woman in her same situation decided to create the same amount of embryos but just have one child and destroy the rest, it wouldn’t have been a big deal, and some might have even thought it was great that a woman could “fulfill” herself or what not without even needing a man. I don’t know what the solution to all these frozen embryos is, except for DON’T create them to begin with!

Yes, she implanted all of them. She claims 6 with each pregnancy. Let’s do the math, shall we?

6 pregnancies (before the octuplets), one of which resulted in twins.

So for each singleton pregnancy, 5 of those implanted embryos died. 5x5=25.

For the twin pregnancy, let’s assume it was two embryos implanted (rather than one that doubled), so “only” 4 embryos died.

25+4=29.

In this woman’s quest to have the siblings she never had as a child, she’s effectively killed 29 babies. I don’t see her as a pro-life symbol like some do.

Being pro-life is not about creating life at all costs; it’s about being open to the life that God creates.

 

[JustAnotherThou]

Yes, she implanted all of them. She claims 6 with each pregnancy. Let’s do the math, shall we?

6 pregnancies (before the octuplets), one of which resulted in twins.

So for each singleton pregnancy, 5 of those implanted embryos died. 5x5=25.

For the twin pregnancy, let’s assume it was two embryos implanted (rather than one that doubled), so “only” 4 embryos died.

25+4=29.

In this woman’s quest to have the siblings she never had as a child, she’s effectively killed 29 babies. I don’t see her as a pro-life symbol like some do.

Being pro-life is not about creating life at all costs; it’s about being open to the life that God creates.

I am SURE you didn’t mean to relate miscarriages to killing!

No matter how someone becomes pregnant, if we agree with it or not, a miscarriage should NEVER be related to killing IMHO!!!

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

I am SURE you didn’t mean to relate miscarriages to killing!

No matter how someone becomes pregnant, if we agree with it or not, a miscarriage should NEVER be related to killing IMHO!!!

** I agree. I’ll pray Thou simply miss-wrote there. A wee bit more careful in wording please. **