Octuplets

[JustAnotherThou]

** I agree. I’ll pray Thou simply miss-wrote there. A wee bit more careful in wording please. **

I (Thou) was quoting & replying to the person above me. They were the one making the relation, not me, I don’t think I miss-wrote anything

 

[samcarter14]

I am SURE you didn’t mean to relate miscarriages to killing!

No matter how someone becomes pregnant, if we agree with it or not, a miscarriage should NEVER be related to killing IMHO!!!

Here’s a scenario that might put my opinion in perspective:

You have six kids. Someone offers to watch your kids. They say, “You let me watch your kids; oh, but there’s a 99% chance that at least one, maybe five, will die while under my care.”

Are you going to give them your kids? If you do, are you complicit in their death?

I have dear friends and relatives who have endured the pain of miscarriages; all through naturally conceived pregnancies. Of course I would never relate their losses to the Octo-Mom’s situation. I can’t imagine that any doctor who agrees to do IVF for a patient wouldn’t tell them, “There’s a good chance many of the embryos we create will die.”

So she created life, and was complicit in those lives’s death, in the name of creating life.

It’s such a twisted Frankenstein world we live in.

 

[Primrose]

OH AND IF EVERYONE IS SO ANGRY AT THE TIME given for each child (comment from the poster who said each child needs more than 45 mins from their mom) so far I havent seen anyone tear down the Duggar Family. I have heard those children need to make and ‘appointment’ to have mom and dad time. That woman has had almost 20 kids…she isnt even 40 yet, her oldes son about 22 has gotten married and his new wife has been quoted as saying that she will follow dear MIL footsteps and have children until menopause.

Michelle Duggar is 43
Primrose

 

[Primrose]

I’ve been following this thread. I do agree with everyone on here, saying shouldn’t have been allowed to happen. But now that it has happended now we should do something about it. Also we shouldn’t condem her, she’s now got to work hard with all of those kids (I had 3 under 3 and that was hard enough=0)). On the news over here (UK) it’s been reported that she’s gone into hiding because of death threats.

We’ve got to pray for her and her beautiful children.
Primrose:thumbsup:

 

[s_schmude]

Sorry, I have to disagree with the prevailing opinion on the Duggars. Every one of those kids is loved and cared for… they’re all well-behaved and grounded in their faith, they’re healthy, and I think it’s admirable that Jim Bob and Michelle welcome each life God decides to give them.

I don’t think the “buddy system” is much worse than an older sibling babysitting a younger one - spoken from someone who did a lot of babysitting in her time.

 

[Col40]

OK–for the record, yes the Octoplets are here–regardless of circumstances surrounding their conception, their mother’s mental health (I think she suffers from some sort of disorder–no, not because she wanted a big family, but based on some of her interviews–WHY she wanted to do this speaks less of selfless love for children and more of a selfish need to fill some emptiness).

For future reference, I think the answer to this question lies in the Charter of the Rights of the Family in which the determination of family size lies directly with the parents who are the only ones who can decide how large to grow their family based on just and moral reasons, taking into consideration children already born. Just and moral works both ways–it addresses the question for couples who choose to limit the number of kids they have for selfish reasons, but it also addresses those who continue to grow their family without taking into consideration how they will support their children already born–not just physically–but also emotionally.

Like another poster, I too question the intentions of the Duggar family–obviously they are supporting the children they have–quite nicely thanks to their TLC contract and book sales–if large families were common, they wouldn’t be unique and they wouldn’t necessarily have all of those resources. But I’m not so sure about the idea that their children have to “make an appointment” to have quality time with them. Additionally, there is a certain “pride” issue I pick up each time I watch them on a morning show—a sort of bragging—like they’re so much “better” than those of us who, for JUST and MORAL reasons–practicing NFP, have limited our family size to one in which we feel we can responsibly care for our children. I know some of their attitude comes from defensiveness of being judged for having a large family. But size also doesn’t make them better.

The Octo mom situation brings up an entirely different question of medical ethics…IVF is less a medical advancement as it is a question of doctors playing God, creating human life in petri dishes. The ethics of that have concerned me for years. Yes, I realize that infertility is devastating and creates a desperation to do anything to acheive a pregancy. But the concerns it creates—from disgarded embroyos, to dangerous multi-births (the odds of naturally achieving a pregnancy that results in four or more babies is extremely low to non-existant–which should say something about the human body being equipped to support that many fetuses), presents reasons for the medical community to rethink the standards of IVF.

 

[ChristineMac]

It is one thing to honor and value Life and quite another to worship children and make them your idols. Having more children than you can reasonably care for is not valuing them at all. It is selfish.

That woman is insane and does not deserve to have those children, they should be taken away from her. And as far as the Duggars–they do not bring glory to God they bring ridicule and reproach. What happened to modesty (knowing your limits)? It is unbalanced and shameful. It makes Christians look like kooks.

I supposes this is off topic, but WOW – I guess I shouldn’t be surprised, but I would have hoped that devout Catholics would admire the Duggars. I think they are an amazing testimony to large, healthy, God-fearing Christian family life.

I don’t suggest that every faithful Christian family is called to have 15+ children, but prayerfully allowing God to be the Lord of one’s entire life, including one’s fertility should be commended at least by faithful Catholics. Are we not required to purposely avoid pregnancy only for serious reasons to be determined through prayer?

 

[Col40]

I supposes this is off topic, but WOW – I guess I shouldn’t be surprised, but I would have hoped that devout Catholics would admire the Duggars. I think they are an amazing testimony to large, healthy, God-fearing Christian family life.

I don’t suggest that every faithful Christian family is called to have 15+ children, but prayerfully allowing God to be the Lord of one’s entire life, including one’s fertility should be commended at least by faithful Catholics. Are we not required to purposely avoid pregnancy only for serious reasons to be determined through prayer?

Christine–I think what the poster you quoted, myself, and some of the other posters have stated isn’t that the Duggars shouldn’t have had all those kids—but there is an element of “pride”–which itself is sinful–in the manner in which they present their family.

I have been involved with NFP promotion in the past and I can tell you that each family has their own story, own reason for having the family size they do—what’s a serious reason to one person might not seem serious to another–but thankfully, God created us in His likeness, and yet, we’re all different. The people I found hardest to work with were those who came to NFP conferences to promote Providencialism and sat in judgement of those families who limited their family size to something smaller. Heck, they sat in judgement of the mere practice of NFP in general–stating that “good Catholics” would never need to use it. I had to restrain myself, as a mother who has chosen for reasons that are between my husband, myself and God to limit our family size, from not screaming at the top of my lungs to them to go home and sit in judgement of themselves. I was even more upset once when they attacked a priest who said that family size is a personal matter, and you could still be considered a good Catholic without having 8 or more kids.

I admire the Duggars for following their faith to the fullest. I disapprove to an extent of any family that exploits there children for personal gain–which their TLC show and book deals do by putting them in a fishbowl atmosphere for gawkers to stare. It’s one thing to have a story published in a magazine–it’s another to allow cameras to follow you around constantly for “entertainment”. That’s exploitation–and that is exactly how the Octo mom is hoping to support her brood as well–through exploitation and “reality” TV. Does anyone else see the inherent evil in that or is it just me?

 

[Dakota_Maverick]

Do we make ourselves Gods and decide who brings forth life and how much life and how long it lasts?

Do we deem ourselves rulers who decide over life based on it’s cost?

Do we deem ourselves worthy to decide that it’s someone else who is in charge over life like doctors lawyers and governments?

What we need to address are the moral issues.

I have to say the number of comments on cost of kids and pointing fingers at doctors as if we voted them in charge of deciding who gets life and who doesn’t makes me think it’s no wonder Obama is in office trying to control life and why Pelosi thinks finances can be controlled by life control as well.

Who is like God? Is still the question.

Unfortunately a lot of people are raising their hands to answer it.

 

[Col40]

Do we make ourselves Gods and decide who brings forth life and how much life and how long it lasts?

Do we deem ourselves rulers who decide over life based on it’s cost?

Do we deem ourselves worthy to decide that it’s someone else who is in charge over life like doctors lawyers and governments?

What we need to address are the moral issues.

I have to say the number of comments on cost of kids and pointing fingers at doctors as if we voted them in charge of deciding who gets life and who doesn’t makes me think it’s no wonder Obama is in office trying to control life and why Pelosi thinks finances can be controlled by life control as well.

Who is like God? Is still the question.

Unfortunately a lot of people are raising their hands to answer it.

Not everyone who disapproves of Octo-mom is stating the cost as the reason. And certainly even those who talk about cost do not see Obama or Pelosi’s solutions as the answer.

Octomom’s issues raise the question of the creation of life in artificial circumstances. Ultimately, the decision did lie with her–but was it for healthy reasons? Based on her interviews, and what has been published, I think her motives were questionable. Plus, let’s not forget that these children are being denied a father…that role has been delegated nothing more than “sperm donor”…that disturbs me as much as anything.

 

[ChristineMac]

Christine–I think what the poster you quoted, myself, and some of the other posters have stated isn’t that the Duggars shouldn’t have had all those kids—but there is an element of “pride”–which itself is sinful–in the manner in which they present their family. ** **I am in no way being disrespectful toward your opinion, but I have watched many of their TLC shows and have never thought them to seem ‘prideful’. I’ve just always admired them for their commitment to how they feel God has called them to live. ****

I have been involved with NFP promotion in the past and I can tell you that each family has their own story, own reason for having the family size they do—what’s a serious reason to one person might not seem serious to another–but thankfully, God created us in His likeness, and yet, we’re all different. The people I found hardest to work with were those who came to NFP conferences to promote Providencialism and sat in judgement of those families who limited their family size to something smaller. Heck, they sat in judgement of the mere practice of NFP in general–stating that “good Catholics” would never need to use it. I completely agree with you here, I am a big proponent of NFP, and in no way assume all Catholic families are called to ‘tons’ of children. I had to restrain myself, as a mother who has chosen for reasons that are between my husband, myself and God to limit our family size, from not screaming at the top of my lungs to them to go home and sit in judgement of themselves. I was even more upset once when they attacked a priest who said that family size is a personal matter, and you could still be considered a good Catholic without having 8 or more kids.COLOR=“Cyan”]** ( I hope so, the Lord only saw fit to bless me with one child, although we had hoped for a large family **

I admire the Duggars for following their faith to the fullest. I disapprove to an extent of any family that exploits there children for personal gain–which their TLC show and book deals do by putting them in a fishbowl atmosphere for gawkers to stare. It’s one thing to have a story published in a magazine–it’s another to allow cameras to follow you around constantly for “entertainment”. That’s exploitation–and that is exactly how the Octo mom is hoping to support her brood as well–through exploitation and “reality” TV. Does anyone else see the inherent evil in that or is it just me? COLOR=“Cyan”]Again, I guess am of a different opinion, but like "John and Kate + 8, I am glad that these families have been given a way to help provide for themselves while, in my mind, showing large families to a world, who is so used to the family of 4 as ‘normal’, in a pretty good light. (most of the time)/COLOR]]

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Additionally, there is a certain “pride” issue I pick up each time I watch them on a morning show—a sort of bragging—like they’re so much “better” than those of us who, for JUST and MORAL reasons–practicing NFP,

I’m not a duggar fan and I consider myself to be a fairly decent catholic. (how devout I would guess to be up for debate)

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for me, I don’t get the impression they are prideful. I’ve never seen their show and don’t feel a desire to watch it either. I read through their blog/website some time ago. I simply disagree with much of their parenting/family dynamics, same as I do with many other people regardless of family size.

I supposes this is off topic, but WOW – I guess I shouldn’t be surprised, but I would have hoped that devout Catholics would admire the Duggars. I think they are an amazing testimony to large, healthy, God-fearing Christian family life.

there’s no requirement of my faith that I admire the duggars. you see a healthy christian family. I see a mother that is so regimented that her children have to schedule an appt with her. I see daughters doing dishes, but never the sons. (they are very into strict gender roles) I see a mother that puts a LOT of basic child care for her young children onto older children. I’m not talking the occassional babysitting or hand washing either. It seems nearly all the infant/toddler care is handed over to an older sibling. I disagree with that strongly. Do I think any of that makes here a bad mother? no. Do I think any of that is abuse or neglect? no. I just don’t agree with it.

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**Which is why the good lord gave her her kids and me mine. **

I don’t suggest that every faithful Christian family is called to have 15+ children, but prayerfully allowing God to be the Lord of one’s entire life, including one’s fertility should be commended at least by faithful Catholics. Are we not required to purposely avoid pregnancy only for serious reasons to be determined through prayer?

This I agree with completely.

The people I found hardest to work with were those who came to NFP conferences to promote Providencialism and sat in judgement of those families who limited their family size to something smaller.

I have no idea why someone who is not interested in NFP would go to a conference specificly for NFP. The Church is clear that NFP may be an option for some couples, so they should either keep their mouth shut or stay home.

---

**I also have no idea why you would feel a need to work with them on NFP? If they aren’t interested, then leave them alone. There is no requirement that any of us use NFP for any reason, so if they want to leave it to God, let them. **

I disapprove to an extent of any family that exploits there children for personal gain–which their TLC show and book deals do by putting them in a fishbowl atmosphere for gawkers to stare. It’s one thing to have a story published in a magazine–it’s another to allow cameras to follow you around constantly for “entertainment”. That’s exploitation–and that is exactly how the Octo mom is hoping to support her brood as well–through exploitation and “reality” TV. Does anyone else see the inherent evil in that or is it just me?

there is no inherent evil in being on TV.
it’s what is done on tv that can be evil.
nor is it exploitation to tell people that if they want a story, they’ll have to pay for it.
or that if they want to see how you live, they will have to compensate for the inconvienence.
personal gain is also not an inherent evil.

 

[joe_clark]

Here is a thought.

If a women cannot concieve naturally, then nature may telling them something, like don’t? This women has three (3) children out of the first 6 that are mentally challenged. I would listen to mother nature.

 

[Lerin]

Nadya Suleman, from what I have seen of her interviews, seems to have a vast array of psycholigcal problems. I don’t think we can even judge her moral culpability in this situation, as she is clearly suffering from some psychological issues. We need to pray that she will get the mental health care help that she needs.

I pray with all of my heart that her children will get the help that THEY need… I am not just talking about financial help, but the love, affection, and care they need. I don’t think it is possible by any stretch of the imagination for 8 sick newborns to be cared for by one psychologically unhealthy mother… not to mention the six other children (three with disabilities) between the ages of 2 and 7. That isn’t being uncharitable to say it isn’t possible. One woman can’t care for 14 children ages 7 and under… 8 of which being newborns. It isn’t possible.

What I found most disturbing on this thread (yes, I read the whole thing) has nothing to do with the Suleman case… but for those who’ve decided to categorically call large families that come about in a natural way in a loving, faithful Catholic marriage selfish, negligent, etc. I am shocked… I expected more from posters on this thread.

There is nothing I can say to change your mind on that issue, but pray that God will help you to rejoice in large families who are loving and caring for their children. You can’t apply such an outrageous blanket judgement on them. I truly believe this viewpoint comes from ignorance rather than maliciousness. I pray that God will bring many examples of great large families your way.

As Catholics, we need to be in the world but not of the world. Let’s not allow our society’s scorn for large families affect our viewpoint. Guard your hearts against it!

 

[ChristineMac]

As Catholics, we need to be in the world but not of the world. Let’s not allow our society’s scorn for large families affect our viewpoint. Guard your hearts against it!

Amen

 

[Col40]

**

I should clarify…Rob’s wife…when I say “work with” I mean on committees for conferences, as team members. We had a family who had 8 children, and counting, on our team for planning a conference that would have had a broader interest regarding the Theology of the Body. The mother made several deragotory comments about the size of some of our families being “too small” and how she couldn’t justify to God on her last day if she only had two or three kids. The father, as we went around the table introducing ourselves, proclaimed that he knew nothing about NFP nor did he ever see the need for any of us to as it’s God’s will only. It was not a good situation and for other reasons out of any of our control, the conference did not end up happening, something that I think was God’s will itself.

In answer to the “prideful” question–it’s not the show --though there have been some preachy moments. But there’s been a few news segements in which they’ve pushed some comments that I find to be “oh, aren’t we the best? Aren’t we perfect?” And there are some subtle passing judgement things I’ve picked up on .

I do agree with you on the traditional gender role issue–yea, that annoyed me, too–seriously turned me off. That and the delegation of childrearing to the older kids. Overall—if they’re happy, and the kids are happy–I guess I should not comment (or judge!) but I would not chose to live like them.

 

[Arwen037]

I have only three siblings. My parents are divorced, and my mom re-married, so I actually have 3 parents. If my parents don’t have enough time for me, how can a couple with that many, or more kids have time? Maybe if one parent is making enough that the other doesn’t have to work you could have a couple more. But that’s about it. After that to be able to afford the kids you have to start NEGLECTING them. If you have a child YOU should care for it the majority of the time, not force your older children to, that is SELFISH.

Everyone wants to say that the point of this thread is to discuss whatever point of the Octuplets situation THEY want to. For me, it’s just the entire situation. And when people say it’s not fair that we’re criticizing her, and not others, and I say I’m criticizing them all, people have a problem with that. Make up your mind.

But if we are suppose to have lots and lots of children, who plans to criticize Mary? She had only one child. Yes the Bible tells us to be fruitful and multiple, but that doesn’t mean we are called to have more children than we can care for. And caring for is more than just paying for. It is sitting down at bedtime and reading stories. It is teaching children to ride their two-wheelers. It is listening to our children tell us about their fears, their day, the silly story they thought of. When you have tons of kids, how do you find time for all that? If you have can afford a kid, but only by working 18 hours a day, then you shouldn’t have one because you can’t care for them.

 

[Col40]

Yes the Bible tells us to be fruitful and multiple, but that doesn’t mean we are called to have more children than we can care for.

Well said.

 

[sanctamaria17]

No one is saying we’re all SUPPOSED to have lots of children, but that we should depend on God.

I am the oldest of three children, both my parents work, my mom works two jobs, yet they still had time for us kids. They still made us their priority. My mom works weekends and during school hours so that she can be home when my siblings get home from school. My dad makes sure to be home for dinner every night, home on weekends when my mom is not, and does not take many business trips at all. Meanwhile, I may go to school five hours away from home and I also work 20+ hours a week, but I still email and call my parents very frequently.

As the eldest, I did not “raise” them, but I did help around the house! Whenever I’m home, I always help clean the kitchen and vacuum. I do laundry. I keep my room clean. When my brother was little, I babysat so my parents could go out and have time to themselves. I cook dinner when I’m home. No, I don’t think siblings should raise each other, but you bet they should be doing chores!!!

It depends on the family.

No, I don’t approve of the Duggars either, same as Rob’s Wife, but that’s because I believe all kids, boys and girls, should know how to do all chores. I myself have done various forms of manual labor, as acts of service and in paid jobs to pay for school expenses. So no, I don’t believe in gendering chores. However, that’s why God hasn’t given their kids to me!! But then, I’m not even 20 and I’m not married, so for me to have eighteen kids would be a bit of a problem

 

[Lerin]

Arwen, the problem is that you are basing your opinion on only your circumstances and what YOU think a family can manage. Your situation is unique… as are all of us. I’m sorry your parents didn’t have time to read bedtime stories and ride bikes… but that has less to do with the “number” of children they had and maybe more with the life circumstances, talents, and God’s call.

My husband Adam and I have no moral issue with NFP, as we put our faith in the teachings of the Church. We are both converts, so this guidance is even more precious to us as we have never taken it for granted. But as a couple in serious prayer and discernment, we do not have a serious/grave reason to avoid a pregnancy. And no desire to, either. I am currenty expecting our fourth, and am 27 years old. I don’t know if God has planned this to be our last or if he is calling us to 12 or more. I don’t know, and I don’t need to know. We just take one blessing at a time, and if in the future we feel GOD’S call to limit our family, we will. Until then, we are open to His control over our fertility.

God has provided my husband with a great job, and we have the financial means to feed, house, clothe our family… plus little “extras” like two cars, eating out, vacations, extracurricular activities, etc. I don’t think the extras are anything BUT extras… and if we were asked to give up the extras to give our children the gift of an extra sibling, there would be no contest. We store our treasure not on earth where the theif steals and moth destroys, but in Heaven.

I’ve dedicated my life to the vocation of motherhood. I do enjoy hobbies like sewing and photography (which I sometimes get paid for, especially during the holiday season!) but God has asked me to place my children before myself. I will have plenty of time to pursue outside hobbies and vilunteer work as they grow, but now, my place is here with them and I am happy to live out my vocation as He calls.

I am radically different than the rest of the world, and that is okay with me. I am a homeschooling, at-home mother who is dedicated to the Catholic faith. I have a college degree, but choose not to work for money but for God. I don’t expect the world to understand that, but I thought other Catholics could!

As for Mary, her situation was also unique. As a child, she dedicated her virginity to God. This was for a lifetime. Her vocation was not to be an earthly mother to several children, but to be the spiritual mother to us all.

I definitely do not say that “everyone is supposed to” have a large family. But you cannot say that you know the proper number of children that each family is to have. You don’t. Are you married, and a mother? Applying a blanket judgement of other family’s capabilities and limits makes me think you may just be young and still dealing with hurts from your own family of origin.

The Bible also says, Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil. You have to be careful about your judgements on others. They are hurtful and they are not prayerful or Biblical. Again, I know I cannot change your mind, but I will pray for you.

Just be careful, dear sister in Christ. I know you do not know the hurt your words are causing.