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TexanKnight
Guest
The 12 are always successful business men. They are almost always very well-off. Poor people can’t be prophets…except when God calls them in the Bible…
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gazelam
Guest
Turn the question around - If it is doctrine, why do 2 of the 12 apostles not come from descendents?
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twopekinguys
Guest
The mormon first presidency is also largely based on seniority.
The first counselor to the president is most usually the next one to take power.
Whereas, the Holy Spirit guides the College of Cardinals to select the next Pope.
Money, stock holdings, seats on board of directors has nothing to do with being elected Pope.
The first counselor to the president is most usually the next one to take power.
Whereas, the Holy Spirit guides the College of Cardinals to select the next Pope.
Money, stock holdings, seats on board of directors has nothing to do with being elected Pope.
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LongJourney
Guest
- At least one of them is married to a descendant. 2. This practice is not founded on LDS doctrine, but is present within Mormon culture. Such non-doctrinal beliefs are to be expected in a gnostic religion (again getting back to the topic of the thread). 3. They are tokens-- especially Uchtdorf, who is popular among LDS commoners, for his urging of ethical behavior. 4. They are wealthy, the other criterion, which is fostered by the Mormon “good old boy network”
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gazelam
Guest
Not so, mon frere.
FIRST PRESIDENCY
Thomas S. Monson - Advertising, Printing
Dieter F Uchtdorf - Aviator
Henry B. Eyring - Educator
QUORUM OF 12 APOSTLES
Boyd K. Packer - Educator
L. Tom Perry - Businessman
Russell M. Nelson - Heart Surgeon
Dallin H. Oaks - Law Professor, University President, Utah Supreme Court Justice
M. Russell Ballard - Businessman
Richard G. Scott - Nuclear Engineer
Jeffery R. Holland - Educator
David A. Bednar - University Professor, College Dean, University President
Quentin L. Cook - Corporate Attorney, Businessman, City Attorney
D. Todd Christofferson - Corporate Attorney
Neil L. Anderson - Businessman
I only see about 6 of 15 that are full blown businessmen. You may be right on the “successful” part.
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kimg901
Guest
Now can you trace their family members before them and see what their lives were like? Also, here in Utah you better be better than the average mo if you want a calling. Im only saying this because alot of ex-mormons I know were at one time “successful” and had “callings” but when the bottom fell out, they were not looked upon again.
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gazelam
Guest
Not sure what the point of that would be.
A calling in the LDS Church is simply a position of responsibility or service within an organization. A calling may entail much responsibility, such as, the Bishop who runs an LDS ward (congregation), or a calling may be very simply, such as, ensuring that the hymnals are stored in the proper place are a worship service. Ideally, all able and worthy adults have some sort of calling in an LDS ward. When wards get to big, new wards are created so that more people have an opportunity to serve in a calling. Also, Bishops have leeway to invent a calling that may meet a special need. A calling may be “prestigious” in the eyes of mere mortals, but we believe that in the eyes of the Man upstairs what matters is how diligently one carries out his calling, not what the calling was. I hope that helps.
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TexanKnight
Guest
Like I said…all successful…the LDS god only likes well-to-do white guys as apostles and prophets
which brings up another point…with 60% or so of the LDS church outside of the USA…why does the LDS god only call Americans to be prophets?
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Porknpie
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That doesn’t answer the question. The facts are…
- LDS has ~60% of its church members from outside of the USA
- none of the apostles are from outside of the USA
- 10 of the apostles are from descendents
This is new to me. I’m just trying to understand why the church leadership is structured this way. I can read the Catholics answering the questions but is there a LDS stated reason? Anything formally from the church?
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kimg901
Guest
Typical response. You didnt answer my question. Why are “callings” for the ones who are doing well in their lives and not for the person who doesnt have money? Wouldnt a faithful lds person who has less be just as good? And as for your first reply, i was curious as to what these past peoples families were like in the way of status in the church, if they were well off or just an average joe.
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LongJourney
Guest
According to LDS thought, their god blesses the good and worthy with material wealth. Therefore, when the person is wealthy, he is worthy. They see suffering as a punishment for the sins of the individual.
Prosperity theology on steroids. That is the reason why so many are on the far right, politically.Again, Mormon doctrine is minimal, and fluid. Mormonism is a gnostic religion. Their prosperity theology is not explicitly stated in Mormon doctrine, but it is present in Mormon culture. It arose during the Nauvoo era, because the people who had money could get out of the Nauvoo swamp, therefore they were blessed. Joe couldn’t admit that he made a mistake. Then the hand-cart companies, the same thing.
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gazelam
Guest
OK. I’ll share experiences from my family. My LDS father is 84 years old and he has had one calling or another his entire adult life. He retired from teaching school at age 60 and now lives on a school teacher’s retirement check. I assume this qualifies them as someone who has less. I personally have served in callings where assigning callings to others was part of my responsibility. When considering candidates I never heard anyone suggest that one individual is better suited for a calling over another due to the perceived size of a stock porfolio, gold stash, or large inheritence. It’s always possible that one’s professional experience makes that individual well-suited for a calling. For example, someone who owns a landscaping business may be called to oversee maintenance of the grounds of a chapel. I hope this helps.
Sorry. I just haven’t explored much of the families of the LDS church leaders.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
Well it makes perfect sense then, apostles and prophets need to be called from families that had apostles and prophets, then couple that with FIFO and viola God has a pool (very small) to work with.
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gazelam
Guest
There are many short thoughts in this post and I’ll attempt some sort of response to some of them.
Some suffering seems to be put in place in order to show the power of God. John 9:1-3 (KJV) 1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
Some suffering seems meant to refine the soul. 1 Peter 1:6, 7 (KJV) 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
D&C 3:5-10
5 Behold, you have been entrusted with these things, but how strict were your commandments; and remember also the promises which were made to you, if you did not transgress them.
6 And behold, how oft you have transgressed the commandments and the laws of God, and have gone on in the persuasions of men.
7 For, behold, you should not have feared man more than God. Although men set at naught the counsels of God, and despise his words—
8 Yet you should have been faithful; and he would have extended his arm and supported you against all the fiery darts of the adversary; and he would have been with you in every time of dtrouble.
9 Behold, thou art Joseph, and thou wast chosen to do the work of the Lord, but because of transgression, if thou art not aware thou wilt fall.
10 But remember, God is merciful; therefore, repent of that which thou hast done which is contrary to the commandment which I gave you, and thou art still chosen, and art again called to the work;
That sometimes may be the case. Abraham was wealthy. The Widow of Zarephath was dirt poor. And sometimes God blesses the wicked too! Matthew 5:45 (KJV) …for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Not so! Psalms 73:3 (KJV) For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
Some suffering seems to be punishment because of wickness, such as, the case of the 10 tribes of Israel being taken captive by the Assyrians.
Some suffering seems to be put in place in order to show the power of God. John 9:1-3 (KJV) 1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
Some suffering seems meant to refine the soul. 1 Peter 1:6, 7 (KJV) 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
The widow of Zeraphath begs to differ…
I personally disagree with that assessment. This topic could take up several threads. For purposes of this thread let me just say that Mormons preach self-reliance and do take care of their own and see less of a need for governments to care for the less fortunate. When we are judged of our actions in this life Mormons are taught that care for the poor and needy will be part of the judgement. However, I personally don’t think that God cares whether charity is funneled through a government or not. And since governments tend to waste resources I prefer that an efficient organization deliver relief instead of a government, but that’s just me.
The point of this is what? Are Gnostic Prosperity Gospel oriented?
You may a great case why prosperity gospel is NOT LDS doctrine.
The best response is probably one of the emoticons, but i’m just not sure which it would be…
Except for the mistakes Joe published to the world…
D&C 3:5-10
5 Behold, you have been entrusted with these things, but how strict were your commandments; and remember also the promises which were made to you, if you did not transgress them.
6 And behold, how oft you have transgressed the commandments and the laws of God, and have gone on in the persuasions of men.
7 For, behold, you should not have feared man more than God. Although men set at naught the counsels of God, and despise his words—
8 Yet you should have been faithful; and he would have extended his arm and supported you against all the fiery darts of the adversary; and he would have been with you in every time of dtrouble.
9 Behold, thou art Joseph, and thou wast chosen to do the work of the Lord, but because of transgression, if thou art not aware thou wilt fall.
10 But remember, God is merciful; therefore, repent of that which thou hast done which is contrary to the commandment which I gave you, and thou art still chosen, and art again called to the work;
What about the handcart companies?
That wouldn’t work. The undergarments probably work ex opere operantis (from the action of the doer).I would like to put it to the test. (absent the person of course) If it stops a bullet, ill convert. Alot cheaper than a bullet resistant vest
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LongJourney
Guest
Especially when you consider Gazelam’s refutation of prosperity theology, so evident in LDS culture.That wouldn’t work. The undergarments probably work ex opere operantis (from the action of the doer).
As for Mormonism being a gnostic religion, only those wealthy prophets have the right to practice speculative theology. Commoners don’t.
Ask the homeless kids in SLC in subzero weather what they think of City Creek Mall.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
I agree with you that Mormonism teaches a prosperity gospel on steroids.
I’d say it is explicit in their teachings/belief regarding tithing. Referred to in LDS-speak as temporal blessings (as opposed to spiritual blessings).
The main idea in Mormonism is, God is like a vending machine, you have to put money, and other non-monetary things in, to get blessings out. If you are not being “blessed”, then you had better work on figuring out what it is you need to put into the vending machine, that you haven’t.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Those kids need to figure out what God wants them to do, and do it, so that they can be blessed.
Other than that, after hearing about this I googled around to find a place in SLC that helps these kids. Nada. I’m going to have to ask around Catholic connections to see what I can find.
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NeuroTypical
Guest
I had a bishop who suffered a bout of unemployment. Actually - two - one in Colorado and one in Utah. When we first moved to Colorado, someone knocked on our door one evening - it was a guy in well-used utility company overalls. He was our bishop, just coming home from work, stopping by to welcome us.
I dunno. It seems to me, that if you want to accuse my church hierarchy of something, we should be able to see how your church hierarchy does things.
Can someone direct me to a website showing the faces of the senior leadership of the Catholic church? I’d like to see if I see sufficient non-white faces that would indicate a lack of the problem TexanKnight accuses my church of having. Can someone give a link to these folks’ personal finances? Can we talk about the Vatican and what it owns?
It makes sense that if you want to score points against my faith and church, then you should compare your best against my best, and your worst against my worst. Not best against worst.
I dunno. It seems to me, that if you want to accuse my church hierarchy of something, we should be able to see how your church hierarchy does things.
Can someone direct me to a website showing the faces of the senior leadership of the Catholic church? I’d like to see if I see sufficient non-white faces that would indicate a lack of the problem TexanKnight accuses my church of having. Can someone give a link to these folks’ personal finances? Can we talk about the Vatican and what it owns?
It makes sense that if you want to score points against my faith and church, then you should compare your best against my best, and your worst against my worst. Not best against worst.
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kimg901
Guest
Okay, I can go with some of what was said. They are your ** experiences ** and I will not doubt it. Lets not forget, some of us here are ex-mormons. So we have seen and heard enough from the church.
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