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on_the_hill
Guest
No, not unless Pittsburgh is a football town.You obviously didn’t grow up in a football town.
The practice started I believe in WW1.
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badnewsbarrett
Guest
I have…several things to say about this.
First and foremost, Kaepernick is free to do this. This is protected free speech, and he shouldn’t be prevented from doing it. It’s his right to stand or sit for whatever reason, of course that doesn’t mean you have to agree with his reasoning.
Second, I fully agree with the end goal, which is to prompt a more noticeable move in the direction of social justice where race is concerned. It’s a good goal, and I also appreciate the general trend of pro athletes making these kinds of statements without really being worried about public perception or having a certain image or what have you. That’s all good.
Third, however, is my reason for thinking this is somewhat mistaken. Not malicious, just mistaken. By refusing to stand, this easily comes across as criticism of the United States. It seems like he’s holding the US, as a country, accountable for the injustice that happens within its borders. I can understand why that is, but I would want to make a careful distinction between holding Americans accountable, or holding certain institutions responsible, vis a vis holding the US responsible as a country. We are mostly talking about de facto mistreatment and problems with the enforcement of laws, rather than de jure issues or horrible Supreme Court rulings or even sentencing laws, even those have either been corrected or are on their way there. Absent those sorts of things, I’m not sure if it’s appropriate to hold the US accountable for this as a country- rather, the US qua US seems to have the correct ideas and principles in place, there seems to be a general sense that we should live up to those standards and continue working to do so, but we as Americans are not quite meeting those standards. A good bit of this is subjective and based on how things seem to me, but as far as I can tell, this is the tension between what his speech indicates and who or what really needs to be spoken against. I understand that his goal is to raise awareness and provoke a sense of urgency on an issue that really matters, and that is fine as far as it goes. But there is a bit of a secondary message that seems slightly questionable.
Fourth, with that being said, one of the recent top trends on Twitter has been #VeteransForKaepernick. A whole slew of vets and active military have sent out messages saying they support his actions and his right to do this. And some of these veterans, especially if they’re black, have basically said they would be willing to do the same sort of thing. One of them referenced how some fans have burned Kaepernick’s uniform in protest, and he wanted to know this: If I somehow became rich and famous and I did the same sort of thing, which of my uniforms would you burn? Then he attached pictures of himself in a few different military uniforms- his combat gear, his full dress, etc. This cuts against the narrative just a bit, as there is a certain type of person who argues that Colin is disrespecting our military and they are feeling dissed. One of the more popular statements within the #VeteransForKaepernick trend was some variation on “Love it when people who haven’t served speak on my behalf, wait no I don’t so please stop.”
And finally, getting back to your main point, I support the apples and oranges comparison. Kaepernick is very much an American, and this involves the American flag. When non-Catholics find themselves in a Catholic church, it’s a lot more analogous to the question of how a Canadian athlete should behave in the US, or what an American athlete is expected to do when there’s a game in Toronto. That would be a comparison that makes more sense- and when you do make that comparison, there is in fact a strong argument to be made for better behavior by non-Catholics when they are in someone else’s house, we should at least ask some questions and make an honest effort to be respectful. That is a fair point and a worthwhile request, but for comparisons’ sake I think the international scenario is a better fit.
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badnewsbarrett
Guest
That’s actually not true, this was spread as a hoax. He hasn’t converted to Islam.
Marvin Harrison made a bit of a mistake when he was talking about this, he didn’t even know Kaepernick is biracial. He made some statements about how Colin doesn’t know what it’s like for me as a black man, then he found out that’s a light-skinned biracial guy and he had to walk that back, said he didn’t realize. So what I’m saying is, some people don’t even know that about him and they think his skin looks light enough maybe he’s not black.
The other thing I want to point out is how I was watching some of the opinion-based coverage on Fox News, and even their criticism (from anchors and guests) was tagged with “of course it’s his right to do this.” But it was brief and an afterthought, sort of like “I’m-not-an-illiberal-person” signalling. Which makes sense, after all they are trying to make a case for a reasoned argument against this action rather than just saying “we don’t allow it.” That’s what I’ve been seeing from the conservative side of cable news- and then I flipped the channel to a really liberal talk program and they made it all about his right to do so, and if it’s permissible that automatically means it’s a good thing.
Of course there’s a lot more than just these arguments happening on TV and on the Internet, but that’s what I happened to catch as I was flipping through a couple of different channels.
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badnewsbarrett
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Lulz. Quite arguably the “most football” town in all the land, and there’s maybe one or two other cities that can even make a case.No, not unless Pittsburgh is a football town.
Quick, without looking it up, can you name the three rivers that meet at the confluence right by Heinz Field? And are you very sure of the correct spelling on all of them?
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on_the_hill
Guest
Yoi and double yoi! Of course I can.
The Allegheny, the Monongahela, and the Ohio.
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badnewsbarrett
Guest
Bravo! That’s how you do it.
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exnihilo
Guest
Yep. It’s bizarre really.
You’ll see more ‘worship’ of the flag then you will of any statue, crucifix or painting. Around national holidays lots of churches around me adorn the exterior and interior with flags that in both number and size make Catholics looks like rank amateur idolaters. When I was a Protestant I observed a most disturbing reality of the relationship of Church and state. Before worship services we had a prelude. Normally during this time most people chatted rather loudly. But around national days the prelude would include the war anthem. When it began to play everyone shut up and rose to attention.
I would find this disturbing without considering the reality that that flag is the sign of a government that imposes abortion, homosexuality, transgenderism and all host of gross immoralities upon us. Kaepernick is wrong in so far as the state de jure isn’t oppressing. But it is de jure imposing these other great evils on us. And we are supposed to salute the symbol of this evil? I don’t.
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Wannano
Guest
I agree with you so I guess I am a bad evangelical! I have no problem kneeling in a CC, neither do I find a crucifix repulsive nor people making the sign of the cross. I don’t particularly like statues but I hope that is ok.
I have been in churches that display the Holy “reverence” for the American flag that you suggest. I feel more discomfort with that than I do with the things of the Church.
So I guess I am saying please don’t write us all off because of the actions of some (ok maybe the majority!)
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Michael68
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In my parish we will mention patriotic days such as memorial day or July 4th and pray for all veterans, but we don’t play patriotic music or anything like that.
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Son_of_Niall
Guest
Hey, don’t take it personally.I agree with you so I guess I am a bad evangelical! I have no problem kneeling in a CC, neither do I find a crucifix repulsive nor people making the sign of the cross. I don’t particularly like statues but I hope that is ok.
I have been in churches that display the Holy “reverence” for the American flag that you suggest. I feel more discomfort with that than I do with the things of the Church.
So I guess I am saying please don’t write us all off because of the actions of some (ok maybe the majority!)
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Son_of_Niall
Guest
The state worship of the right-wing in this country is certainly disturbing. I guess when one discards sacred symbols, the only thing you are left with is worshipping secular symbols.
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Son_of_Niall
Guest
What? You thinking I’m making it up? I’ve seen it on social media AND verified in the real world. One guy I know from the area I live in. Avoided him at the grocery store the other day. Anti-Catholic, Trump-loving right-winger who worships the State.
You saying it’s all an illusion or a dream?
I wish to God it was.
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Son_of_Niall
Guest
Oh, I must confused huh?
In ancient Rome, worshipping the emperor and the empire was CONSIDERED patriotism.
The right-wing in this country worship the state and it’s symbols just as Rome did.
And MANY of them are the same people who reject the sacred symbols of the Catholic Church as meaningless.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
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SyroMalankara
Guest
Its not only the self proclaimed “evangelical” right, the extreme left does the same thing.Oh, I must confused huh?
In ancient Rome, worshipping the emperor and the empire was CONSIDERED patriotism.
The right-wing in this country worship the state and it’s symbols just as Rome did.
And MANY of them are the same people who reject the sacred symbols of the Catholic Church as meaningless.
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Michael68
Guest
Of course you’re confused! You’re acting like a protestant that says Catholics worship Mary based on what they (protestants) seeOh, I must confused huh?
In ancient Rome, worshipping the emperor and the empire was CONSIDERED patriotism.
The right-wing in this country worship the state and it’s symbols just as Rome did.
And MANY of them are the same people who reject the sacred symbols of the Catholic Church as meaningless.
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GKC
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JustaServant
Guest
True, however the thread is about the hypocrisy of the evangelical right trading secular idolatry over what they perceive to be sacred idolatry. It’s actually something I’ve noticed for a long time, but this NFL story simply put the spotlight on it.
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JustaServant
Guest
You must be reading a different thread than the rest of us.
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Michael68
Guest
No, I’m not. Its just ridiculous to say people worship the flag. its ignorant
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