Of Flags, Anthems, and Symbols

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JustaServant said:
You must be reading a different thread than the rest of us.
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No, that’s an appropriate point. Equating honoring with worshiping. I recall a thread on the same subject, around 5+ years ago. Even had a few of the same participants.
 
Michael68 said:
No, I’m not. Its just ridiculous to say people worship the flag. its ignorant
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A group of people accuse another group of people of idolatry because of the symbols they use, which they (the first group) say mean nothing.
This second group then turns around and shows THE SAME TYPE of idolatry they accuse the first group of committing, symbols THEY insist DO mean something. To the point of wanting to lynch an NFL player because he refuses to engage in the act, albeit for different reasons.
You seriously cannot see the hypocrisy of that?
 
JustaServant said:
A group of people accuse another group of people of idolatry because of the symbols they use, which they (the first group) say mean nothing.
This second group then turns around and shows THE SAME TYPE of idolatry they accuse the first group of committing, symbols THEY insist DO mean something. To the point of wanting to lynch an NFL player because he refuses to engage in the act, albeit for different reasons.
You seriously cannot see the hypocrisy of that?
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As sort of said, 5 years ago:

If the logic is “they must be worshipping it” is applied in one place, such a logic can be seen, similarly applied in another place, to that or other items. If all honor is seen as “reverencing”, it is also possible to see all honor as worship. All illogically, of course.
 
JustaServant said:
A group of people accuse another group of people of idolatry because of the symbols they use, which they (the first group) say mean nothing.
This second group then turns around and shows THE SAME TYPE of idolatry they accuse the first group of committing, symbols THEY insist DO mean something. To the point of wanting to lynch an NFL player because he refuses to engage in the act, albeit for different reasons.
You seriously cannot see the hypocrisy of that?
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Can you seriously not see the difference between respect and worship? Seriously ?
 
GKC said:
As sort of said, 5 years ago:

If the logic is “they must be worshipping it” is applied in one place, such a logic can be seen, similarly applied in another place, to that or other items. If all honor is seen as “reverencing”, it is also possible to see all honor as worship. All illogically, of course.
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👍
Eeeegglactly GKC.
When I dared to say on Facebook that Colin Whateverhislastnameis, had the right to not stand, it was met with howls of protest that somehow equates the American flag with the Cross.
No Christian, of any variety should worship the state. It smacks of the same behavior as the Germans in the 1930s.
 
Here’s a good article by a friend of mine I knew back in the 'burg.
Incidentally, he’s evangelical.
Due to my love of big-band jazz, I attended over the summer a performance of the U.S. Army Field Band’s Jazz Ambassadors at the Palace Theatre in Greensburg. My late father, a local bass player of some repute and a Korean War-era Army veteran, had told me that the musicianship in service bands was second to none, and what I heard that night did nothing to dispel that reputation.
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The last selection, however, was an arrangement of the Lee Greenwood country song “God Bless the U.S.A.,” and from where I was sitting it seemed as though the whole crowd jumped to its feet – except for me. I couldn’t get into the song, and not just because I never followed Dad into the military.
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It’s not that I don’t love the United States of America – I just can’t worship it. “My country, right or wrong”? Not exactly.
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post-gazette.com/Op-Ed/2008/10/25/Saturday-Diary-In-search-of-patriotism/stories/200810250135
 
JustaServant said:
You must be reading a different thread than the rest of us.
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No I’m with Michael on this one. An equation or respect for the flag is being made with worship and prayer in a church toward sacramentals and crucifixes. It’s not a valid comparison of what is occurring. Not unless you have concrete proof you’d like to share of people praying to the US Flag for it’s intercession with God? The US Government? Uncle Sam?
 
Padres1969 said:
No I’m with Michael on this one. An equation or respect for the flag is being made with worship and prayer in a church toward sacramentals and crucifixes. It’s not a valid comparison of what is occurring. Not unless you have concrete proof you’d like to share of people praying to the US Flag for it’s intercession with God? The US Government? Uncle Sam?
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Thank You! 🙂
 
I’ve long gave up saluting the flag at public meetings. Its a form of idolatry point blank period. Nationalism has led to so much death and destruction for what? Imaginary lines drawn in the sand. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ.
 
HungerNThirst4R said:
I’ve long gave up saluting the flag at public meetings. Its a form of idolatry point blank period. Nationalism has led to so much death and destruction for what? Imaginary lines drawn in the sand. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ.
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I’ve not given up saluting the flag or standing for the anthem.

I respect the country I live in that has allowed me the freedom to practice (and indeed lose and rediscover) my religion in peace. I don’t worship it however, nor is it being saluted in an idolatrous way as I don’t see my nation as God. On the contrary, it’s a very flawed, very human institution that just happens to have done enough good for me to have some level of respect for it.

Indeed when the Canadian flag for example is flown and the Canadian national anthem is played/sung I similarly stand and show respect to that flag and the nation it represents because I respect Canada as well and the nation it stands for, for many of the same reasons I respect my own nation. It’s not even a sense of nationalism that drives that respect, it’s purely respect for those nations the flags represent for their IMO overall positive impact on the world.
 
Padres1969 said:
No I’m with Michael on this one. An equation or respect for the flag is being made with worship and prayer in a church toward sacramentals and crucifixes. It’s not a valid comparison of what is occurring. Not unless you have concrete proof you’d like to share of people praying to the US Flag for it’s intercession with God? The US Government? Uncle Sam?
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The equation is being made using the reasoning of folks who reject Catholic practice on the grounds that it is ipso facto idolatry. In other words they who condemn Catholic practice should be condemned by their approach to the flag.

I think the comparison is perfect. In fact there is a form of consecration, as in consecration to the Blessed Virgin, with the pledge of allegiance. The actual words of this pledge are really quite strange when you think about it. How can you pledge allegiance to an inanimate object? Since you can’t then one would naturally assume the object is in some way animated. That is far closer to idolatry then any Catholic practice.
 
exnihilo said:
The equation is being made using the reasoning of folks who reject Catholic practice on the grounds that it is ipso facto idolatry. In other words they who condemn Catholic practice should be condemned by their approach to the flag.

I think the comparison is perfect. In fact there is a form of consecration, as in consecration to the Blessed Virgin, with the pledge of allegiance. The actual words of this pledge are really quite strange when you think about it. How can you pledge allegiance to an inanimate object? Since you can’t then one would naturally assume the object is in some way animated. That is far closer to idolatry then any Catholic practice.
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This is a thread to call Protestants Idolater Flag Worshippers? How is this charitable?
 
Michael68 said:
This is a thread to call Protestants Idolater Flag Worshippers? How is this charitable?
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No, what it seems to me is a thread that points out gross inconsistencies. The idolatry charge is made by Protestants of Catholics.
 
exnihilo said:
No, what it seems to me is a thread that points out gross inconsistencies. The idolatry charge is made by Protestants of Catholics.
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I’m not happy when they say we are idolaters because we know its not true. Now we have a thread to call them the same using just as flimsy evidence. It’s not right IMO
 
Michael68 said:
I’m not happy when they say we are idolaters because we know its not true. Now we have a thread to call them the same using just as flimsy evidence. It’s not right IMO
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No one is calling them that. But even if they were if it were true we should be able to say so. Idolatry is a real thing, like heresy. It might not be prudent to use those terms but that doesn’t mean they aren’t real things and shouldn’t be identified. Charity doesn’t mean we can never express an idea that offends someone.
 
exnihilo said:
No one is calling them that. But even if they were if it were true we should be able to say so. Idolatry is a real thing, like heresy. It might not be prudent to use those terms but that doesn’t mean they aren’t real things and shouldn’t be identified. Charity doesn’t mean we can never express an idea that offends someone.
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I seriously do not believe patriotism equals idolatry. If that is the thrust of this thread, it is disrespectful
 
exnihilo said:
The equation is being made using the reasoning of folks who reject Catholic practice on the grounds that it is ipso facto idolatry. In other words they who condemn Catholic practice should be condemned by their approach to the flag.

I think the comparison is perfect. In fact there is a form of consecration, as in consecration to the Blessed Virgin, with the pledge of allegiance. The actual words of this pledge are really quite strange when you think about it. How can you pledge allegiance to an inanimate object? Since you can’t then one would naturally assume the object is in some way animated. That is far closer to idolatry then any Catholic practice.
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The full line is “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which is stands.”

They’re pledging allegiance to the United States, and the flag which is a physical representation of the country, that’s how you can pledge allegiance to a flag. It’s a physical representation of the United States.

They’re not worshiping the flag or the country for that matter. Simply swearing allegiance to it. This has been done by Christians in their variously earthly territories since the time of Christ. Nothing idolatrous about it. Not seeing how you’re making the jump that it’s idolatrous. No prayers or worship are being offered.
 
Padres1969 said:
The full line is “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which is stands.”

They’re pledging allegiance to the United States, and the flag which is a physical representation of the country, that’s how you can pledge allegiance to a flag. It’s a physical representation of the United States.

They’re not worshiping the flag or the country for that matter. Simply swearing allegiance to it. This has been done by Christians in their variously earthly territories since the time of Christ. Nothing idolatrous about it. Not seeing how you’re making the jump that it’s idolatrous. No prayers or worship are being offered.
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It’s to the flag with the republic as a secondary pledge. It would make sense to pledge allegiance to the republic. You can pledge allegiance to persons or corporate bodies of persons. You could write this off as poetic language, and maybe it is bad poetry. But how many times has the poetic language of Catholic devotion been given equal treatment by anti-Catholics, who are the subject of the thread?

I realize the flag is a representation of the republic, but that is precisely the point. A statue is a representation of a person. But I don’t know of any Catholic devotion which goes something like, ‘I consecrate myself to the statue, and the Immaculate Heart for which it stands’.

I don’t know how to make it more clear but I’m not saying it is idolatrous. I’m saying the same people who condemn Catholic practice should be condemned by their attitude towards the flag. It is their standard, not mine.
 
exnihilo said:
I don’t know how to make it more clear but I’m not saying it is idolatrous. I’m saying the same people who condemn Catholic practice should be condemned by their attitude towards the flag. It is their standard, not mine.
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No matter how many times you say it, the right wing will simply deny it. Odd because Catholics of all people should be able to see it.

BTW, just as a general statement, this is not directed to ALL Protestants. Just a certain segment of the Protestant world.
 
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