OF Supporters Please Stand Up!

[japhy]

Organically from forms already existing doesn’t mean organic from the latest form. Vatican II tried to undo centuries of small changes which added up over time. The liturgy was historical, just not from a recent time period.

Why would Vatican II try to (or desire to) undo centuries of small changes? It did say it sought to restore things that had fallen into disuse (like the responsorial psalm and the prayer of the faithful, not to mention the reinstating of the homily as part of the liturgy), and to remove things which were needlessly duplicated or added with little advantage. But Vatican II did not call for a “rolling back” of the liturgy.

I don’t know how the prayer of the faithful was done in the earlier Church, but I would suggest that an organic development from existing (and currently-used) forms would be to model the prayer of the faithful after the Good Friday prayers.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Why would Vatican II try to (or desire to) undo centuries of small changes? It did say it sought to restore things that had fallen into disuse (like the responsorial psalm and the prayer of the faithful, not to mention the reinstating of the homily as part of the liturgy), and to remove things which were needlessly duplicated or added with little advantage. But Vatican II did not call for a “rolling back” of the liturgy.

Restore things that had fallen into disuse: This is rolling back.
Remove things added with little advantage: This is rolling back.
Remove things uselessly duplicated: This is rolling back.

So, Vatican II did call for a rolling back of the liturgy.

I don’t know how the prayer of the faithful was done in the earlier Church, but I would suggest

I don’t know either. That’s why I’m not full of advice for the church on how the liturgy should be. I leave that up to the people in charge.

 

[japhy]

Restore things that had fallen into disuse: This is rolling back.
Remove things added with little advantage: This is rolling back.
Remove things uselessly duplicated: This is rolling back.

So, Vatican II did call for a rolling back of the liturgy.

Except that it’s entirely conceivable that a liturgy similar to the Extraordinary Form but with a responsorial psalm and a prayer of the faithful could have been produced, which had never yet existed in history; thus, the liturgy needn’t be “rolled back” to some previous state but rather updated to include elements that had been neglected.

 

[EasterJoy]

I don’t know either. That’s why I’m not full of advice for the church on how the liturgy should be. I leave that up to the people in charge.

My sentiments, exactly. It is one thing for a Pope to explain his own thoughts on why the liturgy is a certain way in his own time. It’s not that he’s going to change what he did, if you disagree with his thoughts on the matter. It is that reading his thoughts can be edifying, both for those who begin by agreeing and those who disagree.

To my mind, when the laity takes such explanations and tries to use them to tie the hands of those whose vocation it is to determine liturgy, it amounts to an attempted decapitation.

 

[catharina]

I lifted the following post from another thread. It was posted today.

"I’ve taken this from a daily meditation I receive from Women of Grace via email, and posted it here. It seems to be appropriate in addressing some of the heartbreaking attitudes we see all too often in our Catholic world, whether here on the forums or in our parishes.

June 6, 2008 
Obedience

"For those who have become lazy in fulfilling the commandments and desire to banish murky obscurity, there is no better or more efficient cure than complete obedience in everything, with faith and without argument."
St. Gregory of Sinai

For Reflection:

How does obedience "banish murky obscurity?" To what extent do I obey the commandments of God and the teachings of the Church with faith and without argument? (Is there an area where I disagree with the Church and obstinately stand in rebellion, driven by my own understanding and arguments?) Am I willing to be "cured?"

Just something to think about, whether we find ourselves to the left or to the right, or just struggling to stay the course down the straight and narrow.

God bless"

Thank you, poster.

 

[SJP]

Response in bold

No

I think that it would be wise to reconsider your position on Organic Development. The principle of “Lex Orandi, lex credendi” would be entirely jeopardized if the liturgy could be reformed and altered without regard to the Traditions of the Church.

Making it mandatory to switch thee day of worship from Saturday to Sunday in the 4th century. Huge change from what the Hebrew Christians were used to.

**Changing the day of Worship is not the same as changing the act of Worship itself.

With respect to the Greeks, can you please provide further evidence for this claim.**

 

[SJP]

Except that it’s entirely conceivable that a liturgy similar to the Extraordinary Form but with a responsorial psalm and a prayer of the faithful could have been produced, which had never yet existed in history; thus, the liturgy needn’t be “rolled back” to some previous state but rather updated to include elements that had been neglected.

Excellent response.

Furthermore, the idea of reforming the liturgy in order to restore it to some former state has been rejected by the Church:

Pius XII, in exerpts from Mediator Dei:
…the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification…
…Clearly, no sincere Catholic can refuse to accept the formulation of Christian doctrine more recently elaborated and proclaimed as dogmas by the Church, under the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit with abundant fruit for souls, because it pleases him to hark back to the old formulas. No more can any Catholic in his right senses repudiate existing legislation of the Church to revert to prescriptions based on the earliest sources of canon law. Just as obviously unwise and mistaken is the zeal of one who in matters liturgical would go back to the rites and usage of antiquity, discarding the new patterns introduced by disposition of divine Providence to meet the changes of circumstances and situation……In every measure taken, then, let proper contact with the ecclesiastical hierarchy be maintained…

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Excellent response.

Furthermore, the idea of reforming the liturgy in order to restore it to some former state has been rejected by the Church:

Pius XII, in exerpts from Mediator Dei:
…the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification…
…Clearly, no sincere Catholic can refuse to accept the formulation of Christian doctrine more recently elaborated and proclaimed as dogmas by the Church, under the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit with abundant fruit for souls, because it pleases him to hark back to the old formulas. No more can any Catholic in his right senses repudiate existing legislation of the Church to revert to prescriptions based on the earliest sources of canon law. Just as obviously unwise and mistaken is the zeal of one who in matters liturgical would go back to the rites and usage of antiquity, discarding the new patterns introduced by disposition of divine Providence to meet the changes of circumstances and situation……In every measure taken, then, let proper contact with the ecclesiastical hierarchy be maintained…

EXCELLENT. You should post this in the thread called “No Pope”. it would fit beautifully. I would do it, but I am not that great with computers.
Prayers and blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I think that it would be wise to reconsider your position on Organic Development. The principle of “Lex Orandi, lex credendi” would be entirely jeopardized if the liturgy could be reformed and altered without regard to the Traditions of the Church.

Okay… Thanks!

 

[SJP]

Okay… Thanks!

My pleasure:thumbsup: