Of 'viri probati' to alleviate the shortage of priests

[graciew]

The diocese of Xingu has 350,000 square kilometers ,more than 4 times the size of Austria.
About 217,000 square miles if I am not mistaken.

 

[otjm]

Another aspect of Catholic laity not holding up their end of the bargain and living out their faith to the fullest. Obviously there are practical concerns, but are they more so now than in the past when we had large families? Or are they just different? I suspect they are just different, and in any case, the answer is never to shut down on being open to life, downsize the family and stop having children. That only increases the problem as we see here. Catholics, both laity and religious, need a metanoyah to realign themselves with the will of God in all these matters. I suspect if that happens, these other problems of priest shortages and everything else will sort themselves out.

And so what took 50 years to wind up will take another 50 years (or more like 75 to 100, given there is no change currently in sight) to unwind; and in the meanwhile, those who are not well catechized (want to say the vast majority of individuals in the Brazil dioceses?) who want a relationship with God and see and hear the liveliness in the evangelical churches will continue to move from Catholic to Evangelical.

Go back, and read again what I wrote.

I did **not **say they would start moving; I said they will continue to move - and this has been occurring for years already throughout much of Central and South America.

And in the meanwhile, we can sit in our arm chairs and pontificate about how they just need to suck it up and suffer like Catholic Americans did 200 years ago.

Makes perfect sense to me…

 

[ProVobis]

I don’t have the statistics on family size in Brazil, I was only replying to what SWolf mentioned about Catholic family sizes being smaller, and I certainly know it is a trend in Western Civilization with the birth rate being so low.

I definitely am not saying that it is easy to thrive in a situation where priests are unavailable for the majority of the time, it most certainly is not. Yet we see in American history and I’m sure in other places throughout the ages that this situation was actually the norm rather than the exception for a large part of the time, and it was done, and the faith survived. I just view it, as I said, as an opportunity for the Catholic faithful to recommit themselves to their faith in harsh times. Of course it’s easy for me to say that sitting here, and I recognize that.

As the trend appears to be fewer and fewer marriages, according to these stats, it means the single pool gets larger, so given enough time, the issue of married priests may prove moot, at least in the U.S. Just sayin…

 

[PJD1987]

And so what took 50 years to wind up will take another 50 years (or more like 75 to 100, given there is no change currently in sight) to unwind; and in the meanwhile, those who are not well catechized (want to say the vast majority of individuals in the Brazil dioceses?) who want a relationship with God and see and hear the liveliness in the evangelical churches will continue to move from Catholic to Evangelical.

Go back, and read again what I wrote.

I did **not **say they would start moving; I said they will continue to move - and this has been occurring for years already throughout much of Central and South America.

And in the meanwhile, we can sit in our arm chairs and pontificate about how they just need to suck it up and suffer like Catholic Americans did 200 years ago.

Makes perfect sense to me…

I’m not entirely sure what you’re driving at here, I’m merely offering up a new perspective and some interesting parallels to our own history that we may be able to draw upon. I think you raised some interesting points in response, but I think you also mischaracterize what I was saying. I did not say that “they just need to suck it up and suffer like Catholic Americans did 200 years ago”, in fact, my whole point was that Catholicism thrived under the conditions they were facing 200 years ago in America and there should be strength drawn from that fact. I’m also not pontificating, I just think this example can be used to call all Catholics to a deeper appreciation of their faith, which we all certainly need to do. Let’s take ownership of our faith, and the laity getting more involved and understanding their faith and passing it down is certainly something I believe we all can agree on. Everything I’ve said applies to all Catholics, not just Brazilian Catholics. So again, I’m not exactly sure why you’ve characterized what I’m saying in the way you did…

 

[PJD1987]

As the trend appears to be fewer and fewer marriages, according to these stats, it means the single pool gets larger, so given enough time, the issue of married priests may prove moot, at least in the U.S. Just sayin…

I think in those numbers, though, is also the fact that many singles are not fulfilling their vocation to marriage as well. So even though there may be more singles, that does not necessarily mean there are more vocations to the priesthood. Again, the problem with marriage is the refusal to respond to the vocational call in the same way that people are not responding to the call of the priesthood. Do we think that God has stopped calling people to the vocation of marriage and the priesthood in the last 25-30 years? Of course not, the vocations are still there, its a question of response. And why are people not responding? Because they oftentimes do not even hear the call as they are swayed by the secular world or evangelicalism as is the case in South America many times. That happens because families are not encouraging this or properly catechizing or catechized themselves.

All that brings me back to my main point of the laity being more involved and taking ownership of their faith.

 

[otjm]

I’m not entirely sure what you’re driving at here, I’m merely offering up a new perspective and some interesting parallels to our own history that we may be able to draw upon. I think you raised some interesting points in response, but I think you also mischaracterize what I was saying. I did not say that “they just need to suck it up and suffer like Catholic Americans did 200 years ago”, in fact, my whole point was that Catholicism thrived under the conditions they were facing 200 years ago in America and there should be strength drawn from that fact. I’m also not pontificating, I just think this example can be used to call all Catholics to a deeper appreciation of their faith, which we all certainly need to do. Let’s take ownership of our faith, and the laity getting more involved and understanding their faith and passing it down is certainly something I believe we all can agree on. Everything I’ve said applies to all Catholics, not just Brazilian Catholics. So again, I’m not exactly sure why you’ve characterized what I’m saying in the way you did…

Sorry - I should never move from a heated debate to a quieter discussion without a time out.

I will admit to a bit of frustration concerning what was going in in the US 100 or 200 years ago; society was radically different then. People were subject to far different trials then than they are now, and society in general was nowhere near what we have today - which is rampant, unbridled secularism.

I have no question that people need to take ownership of faith; but that is about like spitting into the wind when people are not properly catechized; and I would submit that my mother, born in 1917, or my grandparents, born in the 1800s knew more about their faith than a huge amount of baptized people nowadays. They also were far less challenged about their faith.

Ralph Martin wrote The Catholic Church at the End of an Age - What is the Holy Spirit is Saying in 1994, and much of what he said is just as relevant today, 20 years later. There has been a tremendous loss of people from the pews - and it has been occurring throughout Central and South America as well as in the US, Canada, and throughout Europe. I don’t have it handy - buried somewhere in storage; but I can tell you that if a population is seeing a priest once or twice a year, in today’s age - even out in the weeds in a country like Brazil - it is not going to go well. They are not catechized well.
They have precious little of take ownership of; and the evangelical churches have been moving in to fill the gap.

All the worrying to the contrary, having a married clergy is not going to cause the Church to fall apart. It by no means will be nan instant cure, nor will it be a longer cure; we are past the point of worrying about cures. We need to worry about mere survival. It would take time for any ordinations to occur, depending on whether or not Brazil would need to educate men in Philosophy (that adds two years right there); and possibly a college degree (now 4 instead of 2) plus the normal 4 years of theology, if they started January 1, they would not bee putting priests on the pavement until 2020 at the earliest.

And add to all that, if a man is married, the wife will have a say in the matter, and if they are like the deaconate program in our Archdiocese, the wife will have a say right up until ordination. In other words, there will be no flood. If you have 100 priests and you need 1,000, something has to change, and expecting society (including Catholic society) to change is well and good - it needs to - but it took decades to get to this point, and it will take as many or more to get out of where we are. And that assumes we don’t sink further first.

Rome generally moves slowly. And slowly, we have been gaining married clergy - primarily deacons, but not limited to them. My understanding is that the Pope just granted permission of the Eastern rites to ordain married men in the US - something that should have happened long, long ago - or rather, should never have been denied. It is not that big a step to opening ordination to married men.

And if that happens all the fussing and all the fuming will die down, and the Church will go about its business of evangelization and sacraments.

 

[ProVobis]

I think in those numbers, though, is also the fact that many singles are not fulfilling their vocation to marriage as well. So even though there may be more singles, that does not necessarily mean there are more vocations to the priesthood. Again, the problem with marriage is the refusal to respond to the vocational call in the same way that people are not responding to the call of the priesthood. Do we think that God has stopped calling people to the vocation of marriage and the priesthood in the last 25-30 years? Of course not, the vocations are still there, its a question of response. And why are people not responding?

Actually it’s worse than that, considering the number of divorces are increasing. Last I heard it was more than 1out of 4 every Catholic marriages in the U.S.

 

[Denise1957]

The bishops’ conference of Brazil has formed a commission to study the possibility of ordaining married men as priests. The Google Translate version is here and the original French here.

PrayTell reports that 90% of all communities in the Amazon have no Sunday celebration of Mass. 70% have Mass two or three times a year. Kräutler’s diocese [Xinglu] has 800 communities and 27 priests.

Well, if they decide to ordain married men, then they will be going against canon law, and canon law applies the all Catholic dioceses, even in areas that have a priest shortage.

The Council of Trent upheld priestly celibacy, even though the Council Fathers were pressured to change it. (see Session XXlV of the Council of Trent, Nov.30, 1563).
The Second Vatican Council also upheld priestly celibacy in the document ‘Presbyterorum Ordinis,’ in 1965. And there’s also the encyclical of Pope Paul Vl, ‘Sacerdotalis Caelibatus,’ 1967.

The Church can change it’s doctrine regarding priestly celibacy. But since it has upheld celibacy in the Roman or Western Church for a VERY long time, it would be imprudent to change it (IMO) without a really good reason for doing so. There have been shortages of priests in the past, but the Church did not change her teaching. If it can be proven that Our Lord Jesus was married, then it might make sense, but since we can assume that He wasn’t married, the celibate state should be upheld as the norm. If others disagree, that’s fine.

 

[otjm]

Well, if they decide to ordain married men, then they will be going against canon law, and canon law applies the all Catholic dioceses, even in areas that have a priest shortage.

The Council of Trent upheld priestly celibacy, even though the Council Fathers were pressured to change it. (see Session XXlV of the Council of Trent, Nov.30, 1563).
The Second Vatican Council also upheld priestly celibacy in the document ‘Presbyterorum Ordinis,’ in 1965. And there’s also the encyclical of Pope Paul Vl, ‘Sacerdotalis Caelibatus,’ 1967.

The Church can change it’s doctrine regarding priestly celibacy. But since it has upheld celibacy in the Roman or Western Church for a VERY long time, it would be imprudent to change it (IMO) without a really good reason for doing so. There have been shortages of priests in the past, but the Church did not change her teaching. If it can be proven that Our Lord Jesus was married, then it might make sense, but since we can assume that He wasn’t married, the celibate state should be upheld as the norm. If others disagree, that’s fine.

Celibacy is not a doctrine. It is a discipline, and as all disciplines, it can be (and has been) changed.

There is One, Holy, Catholic (Universal) Church; the Roman rite is only part of it, although the largest by a good margin.

The Eastern rites, which are in union with Rome, have allowed both a married clergy and a celibate clergy for 2,000 years.

In the Roman rite, there were both celibate and married clergy for centuries, until the Roman rite finally adopted celibacy for all Roman rite clergy.

Rome has allowed an exception for the rule, for Protestant ministers, married, who convert to the Catholic faith. It is not a universal exception but a case-by-case basis.

Brazil is not planning on violating Canon law; they are requesting permission to ordain certain men (not a wide-open, come one and come all approach) - older men, who are married (and most likely have no young children).

The reason is not a shortage of priests - it is hard to call areas which may not see a priest in 6 months to a year a “shortage” when the same term is applied to the United States, where there are about 1.1 priests per parish (and something like 17,000+ parishes).

Gross shortage, or extreme shortage might be closer to the reality they face.

As to the issue of Christ being married, He wasn’t and that is well settled; but He chose men who were married and some who were not married as the founding 12; and the tradition of ordaining married men continued through the Roman rite for centuries, and within the Church as a whole, it continues today, including the current exception within the Roman rite.

 

[Denise1957]

Celibacy is not a doctrine. It is a discipline, and as all disciplines, it can be (and has been) changed.

There is One, Holy, Catholic (Universal) Church; the Roman rite is only part of it, although the largest by a good margin.

The Eastern rites, which are in union with Rome, have allowed both a married clergy and a celibate clergy for 2,000 years.

In the Roman rite, there were both celibate and married clergy for centuries, until the Roman rite finally adopted celibacy for all Roman rite clergy.

Rome has allowed an exception for the rule, for Protestant ministers, married, who convert to the Catholic faith. It is not a universal exception but a case-by-case basis.

Brazil is not planning on violating Canon law; they are requesting permission to ordain certain men (not a wide-open, come one and come all approach) - older men, who are married (and most likely have no young children).

The reason is not a shortage of priests - it is hard to call areas which may not see a priest in 6 months to a year a “shortage” when the same term is applied to the United States, where there are about 1.1 priests per parish (and something like 17,000+ parishes).

Gross shortage, or extreme shortage might be closer to the reality they face.

As to the issue of Christ being married, He wasn’t and that is well settled; but He chose men who were married and some who were not married as the founding 12; and the tradition of ordaining married men continued through the Roman rite for centuries, and within the Church as a whole, it continues today, including the current exception within the Roman rite.

Yes, Church teaching on celibacy can be changed. Please note that I said that in my initial post. You’re not saying anything regarding this that I don’t already know. And I already know that the Roman rite is part of OHCA. I also know that eastern rites in communion with Rome allow marriage. I also know that with permission from the Pope, married former Protestants can be allowed to be ordained. It’s still Church teaching, in the Western Church, that clergy are to be celibate. You can’t get out of that one. I mentioned that there is Church Council and Papal teaching on the subject, which you didn’t comment on.

Regarding Brazil not planning on violating canon law, where is this stated in the link from the OP?

 

[otjm]

Yes, Church teaching on celibacy can be changed. Please note that I said that in my initial post. You’re not saying anything regarding this that I don’t already know. And I already know that the Roman rite is part of OHCA. I also know that eastern rites in communion with Rome allow marriage. I also know that with permission from the Pope, married former Protestants can be allowed to be ordained. It’s still Church teaching, in the Western Church, that clergy are to be celibate. You can’t get out of that one. I mentioned that there is Church Council and Papal teaching on the subject, which you didn’t comment on.

Regarding Brazil not planning on violating canon law, where is this stated in the link from the OP?

I try to read each post in a thread, but don’t go back and re-read the whole thread before I comment on a posting. I was not trying to beat you up, but did not recall that you had stated that you knew all of these things.

My error for not re-reading the OP; I should know better than to assume. On the other hand, I have no reason to presume that the bishops of Brazil would not petition Rome for permission, after they finished with their study of the matter.

I would suspect they know of Protestant ministers who have converted and been ordained and were married at the time; I would not assume that the b
Brazilian bishops were unaware that this was by special permission of Rome.

So to answer your question, I guess the bottom line is that I presume bishops will do what they should, rather than presume they will not do what they should. Going through a study and analysis can be either the necessary groundwork leading to a request for Rome’s permission, or it can be the groundwork for going off on their own. We certainly know of some groups, including bishops, who have gone off on their own, but I do not presume that all bishops will do so. And if the matter was to be granted to them, they would have to do a lot of preparatory work to ever get to the point of asking for the permission.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Regarding Brazil not planning on violating canon law, where is this stated in the link from the OP?

All the link said is that the Brazilian bishops are establishing a commission to look at the possibility. But really…do you have so little faith in the knowledge and fidelity of the bishops of a country that you think they would basically say “canon law…meh…who cares about that silly thing?”

Since married Anglicans and others have been ordained to the priesthood, marriage is not an absolute bar to ordination.

 

[Denise1957]

All the link said is that the Brazilian bishops are establishing a commission to look at the possibility. But really…do you have so little faith in the knowledge and fidelity of the bishops of a country that you think they would basically say “canon law…meh…who cares about that silly thing?”

Since married Anglicans and others have been ordained to the priesthood, marriage is not an absolute bar to ordination.

The small bit of info provided in the link didn’t specify anything, so I have no idea what the bishops are going to do. Canon law still has to be followed, though. They can’t come up with their own canon law - they have to follow Rome in the matter. Perhaps you could check into it further, and let us know what the bishops thinking is on the matter.

If marriage is not an absolute bar to ordination, why is it that Catholics who are ordained are required profess chastity and celibacy?

 

[Tigg]

Since married Anglicans and others have been ordained to the priesthood, marriage is not an absolute bar to ordination.

Nor is anyone on this thread saying such a thing. What is being said, however, by throngs who have studied this issue (you may do a search) is that a married priesthood does not guarantee the shortage will be alleviated. Why then, should this “jewel” of a sacrificial character be eliminated? Is not the priesthood by its very nature, to be set apart from worldly standards?

"Priestly celibacy has been guarded by the Church for centuries as a brilliant jewel", and retains its value undiminished even in our time when the outlook of men and the state of the world have undergone such profound changes.

And to otjm: Here is definitely “a particularly “Roman Catholic” attitude.”

Christological Significance

1. The Christian priesthood, being of a new order, can be understood only in the light of the newness of Christ, the Supreme Pontiff and eternal Priest, who instituted the priesthood of the ministry as a real participation in His own unique priesthood. (15) The minister of Christ and dispenser of the mysteries of God, (16) therefore, looks up to Him directly as his model and supreme ideal. (l7) The Lord Jesus, the only Son of God, was sent by the Father into the world and He became man, in order that humanity which was subject to sin and death might be reborn, and through this new birth (18) might enter the kingdom of heaven. Being entirely consecrated to the will of the Father, (19) Jesus brought forth this new creation by means of His Paschal mystery; (20) thus, He introduced into time and into the world a new form of life which is sublime and divine and which radically transforms the human condition. (21)

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_24061967_sacerdotalis_en.html

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

The small bit of info provided in the link didn’t specify anything, so I have no idea what the bishops are going to do. Canon law still has to be followed, though. They can’t come up with their own canon law - they have to follow Rome in the matter. Perhaps you could check into it further, and let us know what the bishops thinking is on the matter.

If marriage is not an absolute bar to ordination, why is it that Catholics who are ordained are required profess chastity and celibacy?

All people, single and married, are called to chastity appropriate to their state in life. Married men who receive Holy Orders to the diaconate are not required to be celibate, Dr. Peters notwithstanding.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Perhaps you could check into it further, and let us know what the bishops thinking is on the matter.

Since they haven’t met yet and I don’t know any of them personally, that would be difficult.

According to Bishop Krautler, this discussion is coming at the request (or at least with the permission) of the Pope. Here is an interview (Google Translate version from the German).

He says that the Pope told him that the bishops conferences should make bold, courageous proposals. So that’s what they’re looking at.

It would probably help to know German. The translation is not exactly smooth so it’s hard to know that you’re getting the full meaning.

 

[Scientia_Dei]

this truly is an example of the effects of modernism, due to lack of faith the bishops are willing to go against 2,000 years of infallible teachings to fill the parishes. Truly there needs to be more Traditional Bishops in key positions so the church does not become protestant.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

this truly is an example of the effects of modernism, due to lack of faith the bishops are willing to go against 2,000 years of infallible teachings to fill the parishes. Truly there needs to be more Traditional Bishops in key positions so the church does not become protestant.

Do you consider the Eastern Catholic Churches to be “Protestant”? Perhaps rather than modernism it’s a proposal to return to the same tradition followed by our brothers and sisters in the East.

 

[ProVobis]

…by throngs who have studied this issue (you may do a search) is that a married priesthood does not guarantee the shortage will be alleviated.

True, and I’m not convinced this shortage is everywhere. Many parishes are being closed or merged because of rising costs amidst declining attendance and collections, not because of lack of priests. However, there may be a need for more Spanish priests in some areas.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

True, and I’m not convinced this shortage is everywhere. Many parishes are being closed or merged because of rising costs amidst declining attendance and collections, not because of lack of priests. However, there may be a need for more Spanish priests in some areas.

It sounds like you’re taking a US-centric view on this.

It’s bishops in Brazil who are talking about possibilities. They are dealing with areas where parishes are not simply merged, but who see a priest only a few times a year. One diocese reports 27 priests for 800 parishes!

What I am imagining – and I admit this is purely speculation on my part – is that someone would be identified in one of these 800 parishes – a faith-filled elder – who would be asked to take on the commitment of becoming a priest. After some period of education and formation he would be ordained to provide the sacraments to those in his local community. He may not have the same theological background as a celibate priest who was ordained in his 30s, and he may not be quite as available as an unencumbered priest due to family and work obligations, but he would be available for Sunday Mass, confessions, baptisms, and weddings. Instead of seeing a priest three or four times a year, people would have a resident priest available regularly.