Offending God

[Porcupine]

You speak highly of Christianity, but how do you feel about Christ? I’m personally blown away by the guy. My hero.

I like Christ fine, certainly nothing against him, but I’ve never really felt the “personal relationship” that some people talk about. He doesn’t talk to me, and though I sometimes “talk” to him, I don’t get back any kind of discernible response—unless I sort of impose that “response” on whatever’s happening (e.g., “OK, my not getting that promotion is Christ/Gods way of telling me* x, y or z*”).

what caused the enthusiasm to wane? Was it your studies of other religions?

This is going to sound stupid, but it was actually more the studying of Catholicism that eventually wore me down. For years, I was very much into reading about the faith. Peter Kreeft, Fr. John Hardon, lots of Ignatius Press books, Fr. Groeschel, the Catechism, JPII’s writings, Merton, Hahn, lots of others. In reality, all that intellectualizing was probably my attempt to bolster a faith that was already weak. How it weakened in the first place is anyone’s guess–it was a long process with no single event that turned the tide. But the reading had the effect of raising more questions than it answered. The Bible has that effect on me too. Nearly every time I pick it up and decide I’m going to just read the NT prayerfully, I get stuck on some point or other and I can’t find the answers, or at least answers that satisfy me. Passages like Mark 4:10, for instance, which was bugging me recently. Sounds like Jesus doesn’t want everyone to be saved. And though the Church claims to be the authoritative interpreter of scripture, there’s no place you can go to discover what the “official” interpretation of many passages is (like the Mark 4:10, for instance). The Bible is not an entirely straightforward document, and it’s not as easy to get answers as maybe it could be. And writers like Kreeft, while originally appealing to my intellectual side in their buttoned-down arguments, eventually began to seem too strident and, frankly, not as logically air-tight as their tone and style advertised. And the sort of pugnacious construction of their arguments began to seem more like they were trying to win a bar bet and less about finding God’s love. Sorry to say, the Catholic Answers radio show affects me the same way: too much persnickety parsing of doctrine, the energetic, lawerly construction of an intellectual edifice, lots of heat and little light. It all eventually began to seem *way *to defensive, and therefore the weakest of advertisements for Catholicism. The argumentative approach only encourages argument, and once you’re in that frame of mind it’s all to easy, if you’re thinking critically, to begin spotting the logical holes, the premise problems, etc. I know the whole “apologetic” approach to passing on the faith is supposed to appeal to guys like me–bookwormish, sort of an egghead–but it has the opposite effect on me. I guess I can’t be argued into faith.

It feels to me that when God puts questions in our hearts, it’s because he’s encouraging us to move up the ladder. He wants intimacy. Questioning leads to discovery. It leads to communication. It leads to a deepening relationship. My most intense prayer times are when I get mad at God. I throw my tantrum and God says, “Alright. Now we’re talking. Thank you for finally being honest with me!”

I can appreciate your viewpoint, but to me the questions put in our hearts could just as easily be a default position of the human condition. Isn’t every thinking person questioning and searching for the meaning of it all? The confident pronouncements about what God wants or what he might or might not be telling you or me sound hopeful and comforting, but also highly speculative. I’ve never had the experience of God telling me things–at least not in clear enough tones for me to put quote marks around it.

I gotta tell you, if I’m wrong in following Jesus who went through what he went through, and he turns out not to be God, I’m still glad I followed him. I find the fact that the Apostles went to their graves proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah pretty compelling as well. I’m cool with dying for Jesus, but tortured for Him? Yikes! I hope I’m never put in that predicament.

This is a nice way to think about it. Kind of a version of Pascal’s Wager. There’s something to it, but it’s an argument that could be made in favor of lots of things. Buddha, for instance. Not tortured and killed, but certainly plenty of his followers have been. Following Buddha could improve one’s life, too. I think Pascal works better on the God level, not necessarily below that.

All things are possible with God! I don’t think he wants your old fervor. I think he wants a better relationship than you had before.

I lifted you up in prayer at Mass this evening. Praying God hits you over the head with a 2x4 (but not because He’s offended )

I really appreciate your thoughts, good words, and prayers, Tezza. You’ve given me plenty of good things to think about. And though I sound argumentative, I’m not a complete cynic. I know the truth is lurking hereabout somewhere.

 

[Tezza]

I wish I was better at the quote function:manvspc:

Have you ever found out your temperament? I’m a melancholic. Big time thinkers. Cross bridges before they come to them. Analyze situations to death. Won’t commit to anything without having all the answers first. I’m actually suprised I committed to any faith except that God has been really good to me by revealing Himself in a powerful way. Of course, I choose to believe it is God

Your tone sounds a lot like mine in regards to vocation…frustration. I’m pretty sure God is calling me to religious life, but I wasn’t prepared for the invitation and I wasn’t thrilled with it. I’ve told him often, “If I knew following you was going to come with this, I don’t know if I would’ve signed up.” For me, I’ts like trying to have God without his will. I think you’re trying to have God without faith.

I think we kids ourselves into thinking we’re more independent than we really are, that are intellects are devoid of God’s influence. I still think you’re on a wonderful journey and even though you’re questions are frustrating, they are God’s way of getting you to a place of faith…hope for things unseen. You can reason yourself into religion, but there’s always that inkling of doubt that it’s just your thought processes that get your there. When you jump off the cliff into Faith, you trust God is going to catch you. I’m not saying ignore your brain or blindly believe. I think He’s trying to get you to a point where you accept you can’t have all the answers, and that faith will lead you to a deeper relationship with Him and will give you peace.

Have you ever read the writings of St. Julian of Norwich? I just stumbled upon her recently. She had visions of Christ and revelations which she wrote about. In the midst of the plaque and all the hardships of that period of history, God reiterated to her “All is well. All is well. All is still well.”

I did want to address some of the particulars of your post, but the above is what came out:shrug: Maybe I could come back to it

Still praying!!

 

[Porcupine]

Tezza, you’re terrific. I appreciate all the positive thoughts. My temperament, yes, definitely melancholic. Downright depressive at times. Way too analytical for my own good. As to vocation, I felt I was called early on in life and actually spent a year in formation, in a pre-novitiate for becoming a brother. Seems like a thousand years ago. Those were great days, and I miss the spirit I had then.

I think that for me, faith, when it comes, will be a simple trust in providence—certainly not the result of any bolted-together intellectual construct. It just doesn’t seem to work that way for me. But that kind of faith only takes me so far. It may end up having to be enough, since, as I say, I’ve been at this for years with very little to show beyond a belief in God and the moral underpinnings of conscience.

I have not read Julian of Norwich, but on your recommendation I will check it out. I’m not, as you can imagine, a big enthusiast of other people’s private revelations, but I’ll read darn near anything, and it sounds interesting.

Thanks again.

 

[Tezza]

Tezza, you’re terrific. I appreciate all the positive thoughts. My temperament, yes, definitely melancholic. Downright depressive at times. Way too analytical for my own good. As to vocation, I felt I was called early on in life and actually spent a year in formation, in a pre-novitiate for becoming a brother. Seems like a thousand years ago. Those were great days, and I miss the spirit I had then.

I think that for me, faith, when it comes, will be a simple trust in providence—certainly not the result of any bolted-together intellectual construct. It just doesn’t seem to work that way for me. But that kind of faith only takes me so far. It may end up having to be enough, since, as I say, I’ve been at this for years with very little to show beyond a belief in God and the moral underpinnings of conscience.

I have not read Julian of Norwich, but on your recommendation I will check it out. I’m not, as you can imagine, a big enthusiast of other people’s private revelations, but I’ll read darn near anything, and it sounds interesting.

Thanks again.

Well, I typed up a bunch of stuff, but I lost it. Me and computers don’t get along. :takethat:

As to your comments on being a meloncholic…AMEN!!! My question for God–Lord, what is up with this temperament??? My tendency toward depression including incessant worry and the bad habit of looking at the down side of every situation does not gel with my faith at all. I feel very schizophrenic some days…and defeated.

I’m wondering though, with your comments before about apologetics and scripture, if we don’t naturally approach everything with “Where’s the catch”? I know I try to see something from every angle, so there always has to be another explanation, opinion, etc. I went through an apologetics phase and I hear where you are coming from as far as the “persnickety” attitudes. Heck, just look in on the Tradition forum every once in awhile (love you guys). IMHO, it’s partially just apolgists addressing their audience… and possibly being reactionary to a bombardment of offensive and insulting comments. I know I don’t have the stomach for it. I was once dialoguing (is that a word?) with a Messianic Jew and he expressed his experience of Mass (the recent funeral of a friend) to someone smearing feces on a Rembrandt, i.e. it had it’s beautiful parts but the teachings of the Church ruin it, in general. I was like, Oh no he didn’t!

As an aside, I LOVE Catholicism, but I’d rather talk about what Jesus has done for me.

As far as Paschal’s wager…I never liked it. A theory based on the belief of something in order to avoid hell is, well, insulting. If a deeper faith grows out of it, fine. But God desires so much more of a relationship with His children. What I was trying to say (and badly) was that I was willing to take a chance on Jesus, who claimed to be the Son of God/God, and walked the walk, to the point of torture and death. Maybe it speaks to my feminine sesibilities…who doesn’t want a man who would die for them? From a Christian perspective, the passion, death, and resurrection makes sense to me. It also tells me that God really, really, really wants to be known, especially His love. That is the foundation of my belief…love. I test everything against love.

BTW, good on ya for discerning with a community! I haven’t found the courage to apply yet, nor which order for that matter, but I’m getting there. I know what you mean about missing those days…it’s almost like missing your innocence that you can never get back. I have that sense of loss about previous desires in my life, but I keep reassuring myself that whatever God wants to give me, it’s going to be better than I could ever have imagined for myself.

And St. Julian of Norwich…no, it doesn’t suprise me about the private revelation. I haven’t been able to find her complete works on line, but I found snippets in both Old English (how cool is Old English!) and it’s translation. She asked Jesus to be allowed to participate in His passion and describes seeing the face of Christ as he hung on the cross, even the change in the color/appearance of his skin as his life drained from him. Maybe it spoke to me as something personal and beautiful because I worked as a Hospice nurse and I know what death looks like. I always felt honored to be at the side of someone as they died, such an important moment of anyone’s life. It is also very intimate, to share something like that with someone. Anyway, I don’t know if it will be inspiring for you, but thanks for being willing to read it!

I know you feel discouraged and weary, but I still pray that God will make himself known to you in a way that will satisfy you.

 

[LilyM]

So your idea of God is an impersonal, emotionless being. Can I ask why you think He would create us? He certainly is self-sufficient, so has no need of us or of any of creation. So it must have been as a result of some emotion - love, boredom, curiosity or whatnot.

Christians will be quick to tell you what the answer is to that one. And what of God being Love, as scripture describes Him? Love is certainly an emotion! Does the fact that God loves you give you undue power over Him?

No, because love is in part a choice, and the lover chooses to cede what power the beloved has over them in making that choice to love.

 

[Porcupine]

I wish I was better at the quote function:manvspc:

Well, I typed up a bunch of stuff, but I lost it. Me and computers don’t get along. :takethat:

I’m sensing a theme there.

I’m wondering though, with your comments before about apologetics and scripture, if we don’t naturally approach everything with “Where’s the catch”?

There’s a bit of that in me, yup—first encouraged in by my dad, I think, who, though an enthusiastic Catholic all his life, grew up in tough circumstances and had some trust issues.

I went through an apologetics phase and I hear where you are coming from as far as the “persnickety” attitudes.

It certainly didn’t work for me. Even Aquinas was said to have finally decided that logic and reason weren’t the best route to God (“all that I have written seems like straw to me” or something to that effect). Not that I’m equating myself with Aquinas, mind you. I suppose some people can be “argued” into faith, but I don’t see how.

…the Rembrandt story… eeyew.

I wish you all the best in your discernment process. I’ve always had great respect for religious and the work they do. And I’m CERTAIN it can be a meaningful way to live your life. Sometimes I still go on retreat to a Cistercian monastery—it’s a little slice of heaven, as far as I’m concerned.

Take care.

 

[Porcupine]

So your idea of God is an impersonal, emotionless being. Can I ask why you think He would create us? He certainly is self-sufficient, so has no need of us or of any of creation. So it must have been as a result of some emotion - love, boredom, curiosity or whatnot.

Yup, I do have trouble imaging God with human-like emotions. Just seems silly to think about God reacting in a human way to the things we do down here. But I don’t have trouble imaging a love that is more fundamental, more deep-seated than mere emotion, and maybe he created us out of that. Who knows? I certainly don’t feel ready to offer any theories about why God might have created us. That’s beyond my pay grade.

Christians will be quick to tell you what the answer is to that one. And what of God being Love, as scripture describes Him? Love is certainly an emotion! Does the fact that God loves you give you undue power over Him?

No, because love is in part a choice, and the lover chooses to cede what power the beloved has over them in making that choice to love.

I’m not sure I’d agree that “Love is an emotion.” Love can produce emotions, but I don’t think love itself *is *an emotion. The online Catholic Encyclopedia says of the theological virtue of charity (love): “Its seat [is] in the human will. Although charity is at times intensely emotional, and frequently reacts on our sensory faculties, still it properly resides in the rational will”

I’m not sure I see your point about love giving me undue power over God. My only point about my “power” over God was this: If the things I do can change God’s mood, that seems out of wack to me. I shouldn’t be able to change God in any way.

 

[DarkNight]

In the grand scheme of things, we actually know very little about ourselves and the world we live in.
I have often wondered why we claim to understand God, when we don’t understand ourselves.

What I do hold on to is that “God is Love” (1-John 4:16)

All the rest may actually just be anthropomorphism or understanding from an anthropomorphic point of view.
We won’t understand the true meaning until we finally meet Him and can understand from His point-of-view.

Try to always do what you know to be right.
That will “please” God (from an anthropomorpic view)

“My Lord God I have no idea where I am going.
I do not see the road ahead of me. I cannot know for certain where it will end.
Nor do I really know myself, and the fact that I think I am following your will does not mean that I am actually doing so.

But I believe that my desire to please you does in fact please you.
And I hope that I have that desire in all that I am doing. I hope that I will never do anything apart from that desire.
And I know that if I do this you will lead me by the right road though I may know nothing about it.

Therefore will I trust you always though I may seem to be lost and in the shadow of death.
I will not fear, for you are ever with me, and you will never leave me to face my perils alone.”
Thomas Merton from “Thoughts in Solitude”

Go with Love, Go with God

 

[Porcupine]

Thanks, DarkNight. Very apropos post, and I like the Merton prayer.

 

[seagal]

In the grand scheme of things, we actually know very little about ourselves and the world we live in.
I have often wondered why we claim to understand God, when we don’t understand ourselves.

What I do hold on to is that “God is Love” (1-John 4:16)

St. Augustine said “If you have understood, then this is not God. If you were able to understand, then you understood something else instead of God. If you were able to understand even partially, then you have deceived yourself with your own thoughts.”

All the rest may actually just be anthropomorphism or understanding from an anthropomorphic point of view.

That may be true to a point. We do tend to try to bring God down to our level of understanding. But Jesus encouraged us to call God “Father”, even “Abba”, which is more like “daddy”. You can’t relate to pure spirit as a loving parent, so it’s not entirely anthropromorphic (that’s my favourite word btw )

I really like the Merton prayer too. I usually repeat the 1st line a lot because that’s pretty much how I feel a lot of the time.

 

[baltobetsy]

Yup, I do have trouble imaging God with human-like emotions. Just seems silly to think about God reacting in a human way to the things we do down here. But I don’t have trouble imaging a love that is more fundamental, more deep-seated than mere emotion, and maybe he created us out of that. Who knows? I certainly don’t feel ready to offer any theories about why God might have created us. That’s beyond my pay grade.

I’m not sure I’d agree that “Love is an emotion.” Love can produce emotions, but I don’t think love itself *is *an emotion. The online Catholic Encyclopedia says of the theological virtue of charity (love): “Its seat [is] in the human will. Although charity is at times intensely emotional, and frequently reacts on our sensory faculties, still it properly resides in the rational will”

I’m not sure I see your point about love giving me undue power over God. My only point about my “power” over God was this: If the things I do can change God’s mood, that seems out of wack to me. I shouldn’t be able to change God in any way.

I think you have a very good understanding of God. He is indeed immutable. Your original problem seems to lie in the definition of “offend.” Maybe you could think of “offend” in the same technical way you think about “love.”

It occurred to me that offending is what we do, and God is not really changed by it; He only perceives it. For example, if I have monster breath, I will offend you if I come close. I offend and you perceive. If you react to it, that’s a whole different operation (like astonishment or disappointment). I commit an atrocity and God perceives it. By my act, I have placed myself in opposition to Him. He has not changed. If I repent of my atrocity and return to the Lord, there He is, just as He always was, ready to have me in His company again. I am doing the changing.

That’s why we say God does not send people to hell. People freely choose it by their sins. If God sent them to hell, it would be reacting - changing, if you will.

In light of what you said here -

I think that for me, faith, when it comes, will be a simple trust in providence—certainly not the result of any bolted-together intellectual construct. It just doesn’t seem to work that way for me. But that kind of faith only takes me so far. It may end up having to be enough, since, as I say, I’ve been at this for years with very little to show beyond a belief in God and the moral underpinnings of conscience.

• I realize that my attempts to put this into some kind of logical construct may not be helpful for you, but I simply can’t help it - this thread is too enticing for me!

Betsy

 

[LilyM]

Yup, I do have trouble imaging God with human-like emotions. Just seems silly to think about God reacting in a human way to the things we do down here. But I don’t have trouble imaging a love that is more fundamental, more deep-seated than mere emotion, and maybe he created us out of that. Who knows? I certainly don’t feel ready to offer any theories about why God might have created us. That’s beyond my pay grade.

Then try imagining a ‘state of being offended’ that is ALSO more fundamental, more deep-seated than mere emotion. A simple awareness, as my friend here puts it, that we have put ourselves in opposition to Him by our behaviour?

 

[Porcupine]

Hi baltobetsy and LilyM:

I like this way of thinking about it. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned a similar idea–that when I offend, I move away from God; there’s no movement (or change) on his part. And that certainly corresponds to what I’ve always felt about the moral law that informs our consciences: that when we transgress the moral law, it carries its own punishment, in the same way that a transgression of the physical “laws” of the universe, such as foolishly jumping off a cliff, carries* its* own punishment. Gravity is not saddened or offended by my jump; it just does its job. (Note, this idea of the almost “automatic” consequences of our actions in the world would seem to be nearly indistinguishable from the eastern notion of karma. Hmm…)

So yeah, that way of thinking about it certainly makes sense to me. I suppose, as you suggest, baltobetsy, that the problem does lie with the word “offend.” Something like “transgress” would be more accurate (or more understandable to me). But plenty of those old prayers were cast in that mode, I imagine—anthropomorphizing God’s traits in a way that made folks feel a more personal bond. Little did those prayer writers know what trouble they’d cause down the road for nitwits like me.

Take care.

 

[baltobetsy]

I like this way of thinking about it. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned a similar idea–that when I offend, I move away from God; there’s no movement (or change) on his part. And that certainly corresponds to what I’ve always felt about the moral law that informs our consciences: that when we transgress the moral law, it carries its own punishment, in the same way that a transgression of the physical “laws” of the universe, such as foolishly jumping off a cliff, carries* its* own punishment. Gravity is not saddened or offended by my jump; it just does its job.

Yes, exactly!! :clapping:

I don’t remember where I got it, but I’ve always expressed this concept as, “The punishment is contained in the act.”

Betsy

 

[tbcrawford]

Porcupine, I do hope this time of discernment gives you the opportunity to reflect and find the answers and reassurance you seek.I hope you are able to renew your relationship with God.I pray for your renewal of faith.

Saint Theresa’s Prayer

May today there be peace within.
May you trust God that you are exactly where you are meant to be…
May you not forget the infinite possibilities that are born of faith.
May you use those gifts that you have received, and pass on the love that has been given to you.
May you be confident knowing you are a child of God. Let this presence settle into your bones, and allow your soul the freedom to sing, dance, praise and love.
It is there for each and every one of us.Amen

Prayer for Faith
Lord, I believe:
I wish to believe in Thee.
Lord, let my faith be full and unreserved,
and let it penetrate my thought,
my way of judging Divine things and human things.
Lord, let my faith be joyful
and give peace and gladness to my spirit,
and dispose it for prayer with God
and conversation with men,
so that the inner bliss of its fortunate possession
may shine forth in sacred and secular conversation
Lord, let my faith be humble and not presume
to be based on the experience of my thought and of my
feeling;
but let it surrender to the testimony of the Holy Spirit,
and not have any better guarantee than in docility to
Tradition
and to the authority of the magisterium of the Holy Church.
Amen

 

[Porcupine]

tbcrawford, thank you for the kind words and the encouraging prayers. Much appreciated.

 

[tbcrawford]

My dear friend Porcupine,you are most welcome and you are in my prayers.God bless

Divine Mercy
Eternal God,
in whom mercy is endless
and the treasury of compassion

• inexhaustible,
  look kindly upon us
  and increase Your mercy in us,
  that in difficult moments
  we might not despair
  nor become despondent,
  but with great confidence
  submit ourselves to Your holy will,
  which is Love and Mercy itself.

Amen