Officer shoots 13-year-old boy with autism after mom calls 911 for help, Utah cops say

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Rockoh22 said:
Defunding will make things a lot worst.

People say, police need more training.
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Not I. I say instead they need to stick to police work. It is interesting that most real police I explain this to totally get it. The complexity of civilization has been founded on increased specialization. Yet somehow, law enforcement has become more generalized, away from law enforcement into social work, mental health services, and family counseling. Police receive training in these areas, but a significant minority still are one-trick ponies, with only arrest or shoot skills. I am saying it is time to revert to specialization. So when I speak of defunding police, I see it as narrowing their work to actual law enforcement.
 
I should have used “law enforcement.” That would be responding to a crime in past, imminent, or in progress. The operative word is “crime.” In this case, a woman wanted help controlling an autistic child. With the mentally ill, especially those that spend half their life in and out of jail, there is seldom the capability of understand right and wrong enough to actually be culpable for a crime. Arresting them would make sense if they were a danger to others, but they are almost never arrested for assault. It is always criminal trespass, terroristic threat, or criminal mischief. They do not know what they are doing, but they go to jail, go to court, get release, and are back in a few weeks on the same stuff. Some stores do this more readily, others are a little more enlightened.

Then there are the parents that use police to take a break from the difficult job of raising a mentally ill son. They do not want them sent away, as there is love there. They surely do not want them shot. But they want a break. There are couples that do the same thing. Police are used rather than the common sense of leaving.
 
pnewton said:
Police receive training in these areas, but a significant minority still are one-trick ponies, with only arrest or shoot skills.
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That’s a fairly dismissive way to describe what policemen do.
 
I kind of understand what you are trying to say. However I do not believe this movement of defunding the police really thought things through. And who is the ones we ought to listen to either. For many say, defund the police meant actually defund the police. While others say oh, it is just relocating the money.

I do not believe defunding solves the issue. To the contrary, more funding is needed. Ok, lets take this particular case. An Autistic 13 year old, that for what ever reason, mom needed to call for help. Ok, the police can and should go. However, there can be a person trained for this cases of mental health problems. The police can make sure that the person trained to help the mentally ill is protected first, and once it is safe, the police can leave and the Mental Health provider can take care of the rest of the process.

For this to happen, police would need more funding.
 
The thing with the Rodney King footage is that it doesn’t show the previous 10 or more minutes of him fighting off the police. He would not comply and would not go down. He was high on PCP (if I remember correctly) and just wasn’t feeling anything. The footage used is often cropped to only show when he is on the ground being subdued by force. Were the constant batons once they had him down excessive? Probably. Should we demonize the police officers involved? No. Adrenaline takes over. When someone is fighting you and actively trying to hurt you for ten minutes, adrenaline is going to take hold. Police do receive training but no amount of training is going to work in every situation. It’s like any time the army makes a plan before moving into a combat situation. The minute the first shot is fired, the plan falls apart and it becomes a series of improvisations until the threat is addressed. Police must respond to the constantly evolving situation in real time. Thousands of judgement calls must be made on the fly and police officers are human. Their training doesn’t give them elevated super human senses or capabilities to discern what’s going on “behind the scenes” for people.

In this tragic situation I’d encourage we all reserve judgement until all the facts are known. They responded to a call of a youth threatening people with a weapon. That already starts the response at an escalated level of tension. If the boy wasn’t autistic and “was” threatening people with a weapon and ran from police, they have to make that snap decision to shoot and stop the threat now, or risk letting him go where he might kill someone before you have the opportunity to respond again. It’s a snap in the moment decision. Not every decision made is a good one. This story is indeed tragic, but we really ought to avoid demonizing the police or blaming the police wholesale for situations like this.

Part of the blame is on the parents. If they are regularly unable to handle his behaviors now that he is growing, they should be reaching out to a non profit program that works with children and adults with autism. There are all sorts of programs available and something can be catered to this child’s specific needs. This is a decision parents in these situations have to make. When to relinquish some of their control over their child and allow an agency to step in to help. I can’t imagine how difficult a decision that must be for parents to make. But if a parent can not control their child’s behavior (especially if it leads to aggression or self injurious behavior, which doesn’t seem to apply in this particular case) then they need to get help. Otherwise the child could hurt someone else or themselves very badly.
 
MikeInVA said:
That’s a fairly dismissive way to describe what policemen do.
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It is my experience, and I did not dismiss the work of the majority of police. I have seen many arrests made that good officers would have never made. So, yes, I am quite dismissive of such officers. The most charitable thing I can say is that they are asked to do something they lack either the intelligence or disposition to handle.
 
SlavaIsusuChristu said:
The footage used is often cropped to only show when he is on the ground being subdued by force. Were the constant batons once they had him down excessive? Probably.
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Now I have seen it all. Excessive force against Rodney King is both acknowledged, and justified.
 
Sorry if I don’t fault the police for using force to bring down a very strong man who was made stronger and oblivious to pain by the use of illegal and highly dangerous drugs, who was actively fighting the police, putting them in danger. Rodney King is lucky he was not shot and killed. And you go too far to suggest I claim the excessive force was justified. I claimed force was justified and when rhetorically asking if the force used (once they had him subdued on the ground) was excessive, I answered probably. You and I can only speak in maybes and probably’s because neither of us were there to handle that altercation. But if Rodney King was high on PCP and wanted to mess you up, I hope he would remember to respect your safe space and leave his hands off you. Criminals respect houses with signs saying “Gun free zone” after all.
 
Speaking of criminals, it should be noted that two of the former officers involve in that incident are also criminals. Now we will see if one of these responders will also end up a criminal.

This incident does bring up another issue, on that we have seen seriously abused in the age of cell phones. Those who call the police can lie or be mistaken. Police have to stop assuming that a call of a kid with a weapon means a kid with a weapon. Ignore the information received. Always assume there could be a weapon, and never believe it until you see it.
 
SlavaIsusuChristu said:
The thing with the Rodney King footage is that it doesn’t show the previous 10 or more minutes of him fighting off the police. He would not comply and would not go down.
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I’ve read the trial summary. Firstly there is no 10 extra minutes. When the camera started to roll there was a fuzzy moment of King lurching forward towards an officer he was not trying to charge him. He was unbalanced by the effect of a tazer and by alcohol.
SlavaIsusuChristu said:
He was high on PCP (if I remember correctly) and just wasn’t feeling anything.
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No he had no PCP in his body.
SlavaIsusuChristu said:
The footage used is often cropped to only show when he is on the ground being subdued by force. Were the constant batons once they had him down excessive? Probably. Should we demonize the police officers involved? No. Adrenaline takes over. When someone is fighting you and actively trying to hurt you for ten minutes, adrenaline is going to take hold. Police do receive training but no amount of training is going to work in every situation. It’s like any time the army makes a plan before moving into a combat situation. The minute the first shot is fired, the plan falls apart and it becomes a series of improvisations until the threat is addressed. Police must respond to the constantly evolving situation in real time. Thousands of judgement calls must be made on the fly and police officers are human. Their training doesn’t give them elevated super human senses or capabilities to discern what’s going on “behind the scenes” for people.
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You need to read the trial transcript before make wild assumptions. Even the police acknowledge the horrendous sequence of reactions by the police. The police woman, Singer, testified in tears about what she saw unfolding as way out of order.
 
I remember seeing police footage of him fighting with police officers prior to the scene of the batons that gets shown. And while I couldn’t say with 100% certainty that he was high on PCP, this was believed (at least at the time I was in my criminal justice courses). It certainly seems to be reinforced by the events around his death.


We should pray for his soul but we should not give too much empathy to these criminals. Like the race riots that started when that black man was shot and killed by police. People only cared that he was black and he was shot by police. It didn’t matter that several minutes before being shot he was part of a strong arm robbery at a liquor store or convenience store or whatever it was. Most of these people being held up as martyrs are criminals with long rap sheets. They are not “good” people. They are not innocent people. And while yes, none of us are innocent in God’s eyes as we have all sinned and fallen short and all that. Some of these people were exceptionally bad. But we’re supposed to blame white people and the police and say everything is racist. And for what? Because a gang banger with a gun was shot by police? Had that incident not happened and everyone waited until the next weekend, said gang banger could be killed by another gang banger, and there wouldn’t be any protesting or rioting or whatever.

I’m just sick and tired of all this false victimization. There are legitimate victims out there. Their stories need to be told. Their wrongs need to be righted. Not gang bangers, not sex offenders, not drug addicts or drug dealers, or home invaders, car jackers, etc.
 
Why do you think black people commit crime at such a high rate? Why do you think their communities are subject to such high levels of policing? Do you think this could all be connected somehow?

“White people” in themselves are obviously not to blame, but I hate how these events are just reduced to an individual assessment as to whether or not the person killed was a victim. I know it’s probably the Christian thing to do, but it really loses sight of the bigger picture and why people might be angry.
 
Dare I ask - - why didn’t she ask the boy’s father to help?

I know government can replace fathers in many ways - - but perhaps not in basic daily discipline. Could it be that this is the problem in a lot of these police calls?

How many mental health / trauma units / social workers is every town in American supposed to have? To replace every father not in the home?
 
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Autism is neurological.

It affects those with involved and those with uninvolved fathers.
 
F_Marturana said:
Autism is neurological.

It affects those with involved and those with uninvolved fathers.
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Yeah. I guess a father in the home couldn’t help calm down an enraged autistic son. shrug

Here’s an interesting article:


" Abstract

Parents of children with autism report high rates of stress. Parental differences in stress are inconsistent, with most research demonstrating that mothers report higher levels of stress than fathers. This study explored parental differences pre-post an interdisciplinary in-home training program. Fathers of children with autism were taught an intervention designed to improve their child’s social reciprocity and communication, and then trained the mothers. Stress through the PSI and family dynamics through the FACES-II was assessed. Pre-intervention, both mothers and fathers reported high levels of stress. Post-intervention, father’s stress was reduced, but did not show significance possibly due to the variability in their scores; mothers’ stress scores reduced significantly. Parenting styles were significantly different pre and post intervention. Based on subscale scores on the FACES-II, mothers were more adaptable, while fathers were more structured. Interdisciplinary teams, including OT’s, nurses and special educators, can work together to provide early intervention and positively impact the lives of families of children with autism."
 
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Why not send out both?

Some people who are acting out, may very well be dangerous, with the abundance of guns and drugs in this country.
 
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I think the answer to why there are such high violent crime rates in black communities is multi faceted. For such a complex problem there isn’t going to be a one size fits all answer. Part of it is the lack of Fathers in a lot of homes. Part of it is the rap culture that teaches youth to idolize the gang/drug/violent/anti-cop/objectifying women lifestyle. Part of it is certainly lack of economic opportunity in black communities (my opinion is that this is directly tied to the previous example: Most businesses steer clear of black neighborhoods because they fear being robbed). This is likely just scratching the surface.

My only real gripe is that people (regardless of color) are willing to protest at all (even more so when it turns violent) over police shooting a black man, yet there is absolute silence at the constant violence in cities with black men shooting black men. If Black Lives Matter, why aren’t they burning down South Chicago for the never ending black on black violence? The whole movement is hypocritical. I just don’t think they have room to complain about police violence when they are silent and actively working against police in their own neighborhoods for black on black violence.

If a cop kills a black man, protestant and loot. If a black man kills a black man/woman/child, then the community responds with “snitches get stitches”. It’s ridiculous.
 
SlavaIsusuChristu said:
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If a cop kills a black man, protestant and loot. If a black man kills a black man/woman/child, then the community responds with “snitches get stitches”. It’s ridiculous.
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I think you meant “protest”.
Darn those looting protestants!
 
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