OK, I'm in trouble again!

[SavedByGod]

Catholics like those women you described are exactly what is wrong with Our Church today…and they wonder why Catholics have an identity crisis and lack even a mediocre catechesis…very, very sad…and the worst thing is that people like this end up in positions of teaching and authority and just spread their heresies to younger generations…We have a huge mess to clean up and honestly, Rome needs to become more vocal on these types of Catholics and the local ordinaries need to strip anyone from their position within a Church, Cath School, or diocese that promulgates this and any other type nonsense…there needs to be an excommunication of lots of people who openly teach and hold dissenting beliefs against Catholic Theology and the teachings/rules coming out of Rome…Fr. Jenkins at Notre Dame is one…Mahony in CA is another…if they start openly conducting some house cleaning on this malefactors, then it will be clear to those who are unsure what proper teaching is to know what they should believe and how they should worship. Now when I say excommunication, I am not saying to Damn them to Hell for eternity and offer no chance of reconciliation, but maybe that will cause them to realize the error of their ways…and to be honest, I think it is completely asinine that these people still get to be considered Catholics while groups like the SSPX are outcast…that is a joke

As a Reformed Protestant (and former convert to Catholicism), this is what I am having trouble understanding. Why won’t the Pope and the American bishops take a more active role in rooting out the teaching of heresy in the Church in America? Would the original apostles have tolerated this kind of heresy? I certainly don’t think that Paul would have, judging from the evidence of his letters to the Corinthians!

 

[felsguy]

I must have missed something along the way here. What are the heresies you folks are referring too?

 

[michaeldaniels]

No…the Apostles would not have tolerated and we shouldn’t today…there needs to be more initiative on the part of Rome and the CDF, etc. to eliminate these cancers when they arise…the problem is that they are afraid of having a mass exodus from The Church, since they have allowed these errors to spread, there are a lot of good Catholics who would follow the masses away from The Church, just because they don’t know any better…they have been exposed to the liberal/modernist Catholicism so long without anyone telling them it is wrong…but I think the time for action is now!!! We don’t need to hesitate any longer. Also, it is time we reconcile with the SSPX…the whole situation reminds me of Patton in WWII, who said the real enemy of the future would be the Soviet Union…and he was a proponent of giving the Germans back their weapons and going on the offensive against the Communist in the Soviet Union…well, he was right and maybe we should have done it. In this modern day scenario, the SSPX would be the Germans and the Liberal/Modernists are the Commie Soviet Union…time to act now or there will be many more years of sorrows to come.

As a Reformed Protestant (and former convert to Catholicism), this is what I am having trouble understanding. Why won’t the Pope and the American bishops take a more active role in rooting out the teaching of heresy in the Church in America? Would the original apostles have tolerated this kind of heresy? I certainly don’t think that Paul would have, judging from the evidence of his letters to the Corinthians!

 

[JRKH]

As a Reformed Protestant (and former convert to Catholicism), this is what I am having trouble understanding. Why won’t the Pope and the American bishops take a more active role in rooting out the teaching of heresy in the Church in America? Would the original apostles have tolerated this kind of heresy? I certainly don’t think that Paul would have, judging from the evidence of his letters to the Corinthians!

I’m sure the reasons are many and complex.
I agree that the Apostles would not have tolerated what some of the Bishops here are getting away with.
However, I beg everyone to consider how long some radical beliefs persisted in the historical church before finally being purged.
The Church has gone through any number of rough periods ranging from outright heresies to lesser problems such as lax enforcement of monastic rules and unworthy clergy. In fact I would say that we could easily find times in Church history, without getting into actual heresy, that would make todays problems seem pale by comparison.

Understand - I am not condoning the bad behavior. I too wish that the Holy Father could/would be more forceful with these errant priests and bishops. I believe that he wishes he could be more forceful as well.

The only thing I can suggest is that all good and loyal catholics everywhere demonstrate their loyalty and orthodoxy in every way they can. Never speak against the teachings of Rome and not be silent when others speak against Church teachings. Do this with Love and understanding. Not arguing, but persuading with reference to Church documents and showing how each teaching flows from Christ’s command to Love God and neighbor.

The Church will grow stronger, even if smaller, if we do this. Time is already weeding out some of the more radical clergy from the “'60’s” and they are being replaced by and large by people who are more orthodox. It has been only a little bit over 40 years since Vat II and already there is a shift back towerd the center and the roots of our beliefs.

Pray for our Holy Father and Pray for our priests.

Peace
James

 

[luminoushope]

I must have missed something along the way here. What are the heresies you folks are referring too?

Please bear in mind that I am not even a Catholic yet, but what I took away from the initial post was this:

1. The women’s group complained that Rome was an annoyance stopping them from doing what they wanted to do. They did not seem to recognize the authority of the Holy Father and the Church.
2. The group spoke favorably about contraception, that it should be allowed. This is in direct contradiction of the teachings of the Church.
3. The group seemed to think that church should be more “entertaining”, like Protestant churches. Here is where I must speak. I was a Protestant for 27 years and could stand no more entertainment. The Holy Mass is just that, holy! This is why I am joyfully putting out the effort to become a Catholic.

All three of these items represent distinctives of the Catholic Church that actually make it Catholic! Long may that last.

Blessed Christmas to you and all,

Luminous Hope (this name represents how I feel about becoming Catholic)

 

[convert999]

As a convert, I also sometimes wonder why disobedience and disloyalty are tolerated by the Church. But then I ask myself, what would I want the Church to do? Should these ladies be disciplined? In what way? And would that lead them closer to God, or would it cause them to leave the Church and thus all hope of repentance? I’m not sure it’s useful to compare today’s Church with the church of the apostles. They were forming a completely new faith, so obviously heresy and error had to be dealt with quickly and firmly. We, on the other hand, have 2000 years of teaching behind us. The more I think about it, the more I agree with my priest – leading by example and prayer is the most appropriate course.

 

[JRKH]

As a convert, I also sometimes wonder why disobedience and disloyalty are tolerated by the Church. But then I ask myself, what would I want the Church to do? Should these ladies be disciplined? In what way? And would that lead them closer to God, or would it cause them to leave the Church and thus all hope of repentance? I’m not sure it’s useful to compare today’s Church with the church of the apostles. They were forming a completely new faith, so obviously heresy and error had to be dealt with quickly and firmly. We, on the other hand, have 2000 years of teaching behind us. The more I think about it, the more I agree with my priest – leading by example and prayer is the most appropriate course.

I agree with what you are saying above about trying to figure the best way for the church to handle these situations. Especially where individual parishoners are involved. Now clergy, or highly public individuals are another matter in my opinion.
Clergy who openly dissent from Church teaching are risking not only their own souls but the souls of those in their care.
Highly Public individuals such as politicians can damage the publics view of church teaching.

I don’t want to get critical on how the Church leadership is handling things but I do think that there are people in certain positions who need to either tow the line or be asked to step away for the good of the flock.

I don’t think that such a stance removes, “all hope of repentance”, if anything it should give these people pause and even if they do choose to leave over the issues, they are still welcome to repent and return.
Remember, If they do not choose to repent, it will not matter whether they are “inside” or “outside” the church when they die. They will still die in unrepentant sin.

Peace
James

 

[luminoushope]

As a convert, I also sometimes wonder why disobedience and disloyalty are tolerated by the Church. But then I ask myself, what would I want the Church to do? Should these ladies be disciplined? In what way? And would that lead them closer to God, or would it cause them to leave the Church… I’m not sure it’s useful to compare today’s Church with the church of the apostles. They were forming a completely new faith, so obviously heresy and error had to be dealt with quickly and firmly… The more I think about it, the more I agree with my priest – leading by example and prayer is the most appropriate course.

I guess we’re in more trouble than we knew. I was alarmed several weeks ago when I saw a bulletin item announcing a seminar on “The Wisdom Of ‘The Shack’”, to be held at a Catholic retreat center. I was even more alarmed when a woman well-established in our parish atttended this and came back glowing, not able to say enough good about this book! She thought it was wonderful that God was represented as a woman and that church attendance and “organized religion” were deemed unnecessary. She insisted I must read this wonderful book! To me it is obviously a very old lie. I was speechless. Later I realized that I came to the Catholic Church for its reverence for God and I’m not about to be sidetracked by this book. I don’t want this thread to be sidetracked, either, but it’s an example of what you were talking about.

I agree with your remarks about apostolic times. The concepts of freedom and individualism we live with in America today were unknown then.

I also agree prayer and setting a good example are the only way for a lay person to go. If this lady ever approaches me again about the book, I will politely tell her what I have told you here on this thread.

Blessings…

 

[MyCatholicHeart]

I also have had conversations with Catholics that don’t see anything wrong with speaking against the church’s teachings. I am in the process of converting and my sponsor and the pastor of our parish are both very traditional, as is the whole of the RCIA team. I feel very blessed to have such traditional people instructing me in the faith. But I recently began wearing a veil to mass and adoration and I get some very strange looks, although I am by no means the only woman to do so (but we are a definite minority.) I even had a woman stare harshly at me before mass the other day. I felt very uncomfortable, but I just went on praying and ignored her. She later made a comment within my hearing about “overzealous converts” and how the veil “brought women down” and she was glad she didn’t have to wear one. I love my veil and the reverence I feel covering my hair when I’m in His presence. I don’t feel like I have to, but blessed that I get to! I even had a cradle Catholic tell me that I had inspired her to start wearing a veil! That took all the sting out of the other lady’s comments
Convert, I know others have said it before me, but just be yourself and hope your example is well received. Those women may be set in their ways, but God can change anyone’s heart. I’m praying for you.

 

[Lady_Kikyo]

JMJ

Convert, rejoice in this! Christ was the talk of “the blind.” Pray that the Holy Ghost give you the words to say when someone tries to convince you that they know better than Christ. At times the best response may be silence with a sorrowful smile. Continue to remain faithful to Christ and His Church, be sweet and amiable, as this will likely be a better witness to these heretic women in your parish. I doubt it will die down, unless another Catholic comes along that they can attack. Have you considered going to their meetings? My fiance suggested I join a liberal women’s group at a local parish…to sort of “infiltrate” it with truth…not sure if I have the stomach to deal with it…or if I could be subtle enough…anyway, I’m rambling. Keep the Faith! Pax.

 

[JustaServant]

One problem I see on the local level is Americans as a whole are too fooled by relativism and nearly everything has to be politically correct. So in parish meetings, some who hold heretical beliefs are left alone because they act nice on the outside but show fangs if you ever inquire about how they teach or what role model that are presenting. While the orthodox ones are easily told they have it wrong and others use authority and need for obedience to quiet them.

This is very sad because unless I can sit in CCD classes in the local parishes, I am plan to homeschool my future kids and fully teach them orthodox teachings. I’ll rather they are bored when they must attend required CCD classes then be taught misguided values and ideas contrary to our 2000 year tradition.

It is frustrating.
But keep this in mind. When the Church in the US is confronted with a crisis. It is the orthodox in the local parishes that keep things going.
Cafeteria Catholics are the first to abandon ship.

 

[JRKH]

It is frustrating.
But keep this in mind. When the Church in the US is confronted with a crisis. It is the orthodox in the local parishes that keep things going.
Cafeteria Catholics are the first to abandon ship.

Well Put !!

Peace
James

 

[crenfro]

I even had a woman stare harshly at me before mass the other day. I felt very uncomfortable, but I just went on praying and ignored her. She later made a comment within my hearing about “overzealous converts” and how the veil “brought women down” and she was glad she didn’t have to wear one.

Many blessings to you. I’m so sorry that happened to you. Keep up your good example though - you never know what good effects that can have.

 

[djeter]

My husband and son love this parish, and I’m not willing to split up the family by going somewhere else. I like the priest. I suppose this will all die down in time – right? Thanks for letting me rant!

Your struggle to fit in as a convert reminded me of my own:

payingattentiontothesky.com/422/

Later someone emailed me privately about the post and it seems Jerome (the problem here) was up to the same games in another parish he was active in. I promised not to reveal the emailers comments but the sense of relief that what had happened to us was not part of our imagination or something we had done wrong was so palpable.

Like most harrassment, the solution is to get it out there – speak to as many as you can – especially your parish priest. But get it out there in the sunlight. Doesn’t work all the time but it will make you feel better.

dj