OK, let's assume a creator

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You are correct, but only if we were some sort of robots. But, we are not. We are human beings. It is, therefore, completely logical that, after going through an appropriate dialectic, a logical human being could fairly conclude that a creator, with such immense power, would seem to be similar, in many respects, to its foremost creature.
No, it does not follow in a strict logical manner. You assume that the emergence of intelligence, free will, etc… cannot happen “by itself”, that it would lead to a logical contradiction, like a “married bachelor”. Can you prove it?
Inductive logic can also take us to the conclusion that only something greater than the universe could have created it. For that which is greater is not created by that which is lesser. If this immense universe was created by that which is greater, that creator could not be finite.
Greater in what respect? No, it does not follow that the creator must be infinite. How does one even define an “infinite being”?
“Sentience” must follow from this creation. The universe cannot be the creature of blind power. The creator cannot be apathetic to what it is creating. The logical premise for this is grounded in the continual order that we see. Not to mention that an infinite creator is still creating, as far as we’re concerned.
Show me a logical contradiction which proves that a non-sentient being, or power cannot “create” something that exhibits order. Examples to the contrary are abound. Termites are not sentient, and yet they create structures of high complexity. They create precise air-conditioning in their mounds, where the humidity stays between precise limits for the queen.
But it precisely follows that the creator is still around. An infinite, non-physical creator would not scurry off to some corner of the universe, or multi-verse. It is infinite; it’s everywhere: there’s no secluded place to hide. Besides, it is still creating.
Since the “infinite” nature of the creator has not been established, none of this follows. The continued existence of a builder is not necessary to the continued existence of the house.
But, Spock, that would be impossible. As I said earlier, the creator could not be indifferent to the creature. If it were, there would not be any necessity of order, nor any fine-tuning for the precarious existence of life, unless one postulates a negligibly chance event. Which one is more preposterous?
We are not talking about which one do you find more probable. We are talking about what is a logical necessity.
Furthermore, we are immediately struck by the fact that everything seems to have a purpose, some things even multiple purposes. Since all of the things we see have purposes, it would be completely illogical that an infinite creator, that would create this universe out of complete deference, would do so for no reason. Would it not?
Seems like? It does not seem like that at all. What is the purpose of a volcano eruption, or a tsunami? But even if it were “purposefully” arranged, it would not logically follow that the creator is interested in humans. And if it would be interested in humans, its interest could be based on entertainment, or having a gruesome interest in our squirming during natural disasters.

But my point was: “assuming a deistic creator”, who merely sets the universe in motion, where does the logical path lead? It does not lead anywhere. I purposefully did not mention the “deistic creator”, so not to make it too obvious. The idea of a deistic creator is not logically contradictory. And there is no logical path from deism to theism.
 
…NOW!

Explanations:

(1) If nothing which is in motion can be, in that particular respect, its own mover, then there must be a mover prior to it which causes that particular motion. Since there could be no mover that’s prior to the absolute first, then the first mover must not be in motion, in any respect whatsoever. For that to be the case, it would have to be self-moved, which is impossible, or else it would have to be moved by a mover “before the first” (which would render it not truly the first).

(2) Because it is purely motionless, it does not in any sense pass from a state of potency into actuality. It is changeless through and through. This is because, were it to contain any potency – which is only truly a potency of the thing iff it might be in act, if it’s possibly actualized – then such a potency could only come about through motion of some kind, from a transition from potency to act. Since it could not move itself in that regard, it could not be moved by another toward such actualization, meaning the “potency” would could not possibly be actualized, could never be in act. Except, a potency is, by definition, a thing at least possibly actualized. Any “potency” in the first mover couldn’t ever be actual, which is nonsense, so there is no (non-actualized) potency in the first mover.

(3) Since there’s no potency in the first mover, there is no existence or mode of existence that is at all non-actualized, or potential, to it. Existence is the act of a thing, an essential being (i.e., a being w/some definite nature or other, w/“whatness” – as indeed nothing lacking essence could be distinctly known or described). Any essential being is merely in potency to actual existence as such, per se, unless existence is included within or identical to its very own essence; in other words, unless its essence is to exist, then it cannot account for its own existence as such-and-such a being, its individual motion from potentially existing as an x to actually existing as an x. Any being whose essence is to exist must exist of necessity, for asserting its non-existence would fall prey to contradiction. And so the first mover’s essence is to necessarily exist, to most fully and completely be.

(4) For there to be more than one being whose essence is existence itself, there would have to be some property by which they differ, by which we could conceive of them as individually distinct from one another. But any such property would, for one, be or regard an act (and an existence of some form) of the one and not the other; one would thus have an existence or actuality that the other does not. However, that’s impossible, given that each of their essences is simply existence, pure act, and as such couldn’t exclude any actuality.

(5) ‘Goodness’, defined in terms of completion/fullness and perfection in act, as describing the complete actualization of a potency, is accordingly a word most properly predicated, in its most primary sense, of the first mover. That’s because the highest good will thereby be that which is most fully actual (that is, actual in the widest and most fundamental way).

(6) Any being which contains absolutely no division between actual existence and omnipotent essence must permit of no parts or composition. Any composition, be it of diverse traits or just existence and essence, necessarily requires a unifier, a composer (at least if such constituent parts are not themselves united by one common nature). It is nonsense to speak of a whole’s parts as working together in some sort of unity prior to their possessing any real unity. For a whole’s parts to all come together and unite themselves, as parts, under itself-as-a-whole would be for the whole to precede its own existence. (And for any parts that just accidentally combine, no essential whole, that is, no essence, no truly real, individual, substantial being, is made. The result would be just an internally diverse mixture of still-individual things, all maintaining their own essential identities, happening to react w/each other and bring about various accidental effects. No unified teleology; no more a really essential individual than two kids cooperatively standing on each other’s shoulders in a trench coat with the requisite hat and sunglasses.)

(7) Embodied entails composition; matter is by nature divisible and compositional. Plus, it would be a composite of its essence and body (what it is & what it inhabits). Finally, everything that isn’t the first mover is therefore at least potentially in some motion, since it must lack a possible act; it’s in that fashion constituted w/unity as both act and potency. Its potency is rooted in what it is by nature, its essence, which must be distinct from its existence, lest it be the first mover. Since anything with any inherent division, for present purposes between “what it is” and “that it is”, must either account for its divided parts’ union by itself (internally) or by another (externally), we conclude that nothing in the S-T universe (i.e., nothing that isn’t absolutely simple/actual) is the first mover. (On the other hand, w/theoretical physics growing more and more fond of speculating beyond S-T material bodies, the line between “the universe” and “the supernatural” gets less clear. I mean, what sort of existence does a law of physics have? Strictly abstract? “Emergent”? No matter; still composite.)

Most of that is, in effect, just about how Aquinas goes on to elaborate on his proofs. I didn’t check his work precisely, though, so I can’t vouch for how closely his steps resemble “mine”. Plus, I hardly “checked my work” so I won’t claim all of that is absolutely airtight yet. Now to cut to the chase w/a risk-free prediction, which terms do you dispute/misinterpret my employment and definition of, and over which specific inferences do you hesitate? And of course, why?
 
Spock,

Before I start please note that I am not Catholic. I do not claim to be presenting Catholic teaching in any shape, manner or form. Everything I write here is my personal opinion.

I do not think it is possible to divine* the nature of God by observing the physical universe. For one we don’t, and never will, know enough. Are the laws of physics “universal” in the sense of applying to the entire universe or are they merely local bye laws. Are they the same a trillion light years beyond our event horizon as they are on planet Earth today? Will they be the same a trillion years from now?

Is our universe the only universe? Was our big bang a unique event? Are there other universes with different laws of physics and different constants of nature?

At least for now we have no way of answering any of these questions.

But even if we could, what would that tell us? We live inside the universe or “multiverse”. We have no way of looking “outside”.

Suppose you’re confined to a single windowless building. You can never look out. What can you deduce about the character of the architect who designed the building? For one, you do not know under what constraints he was operating.

Well if we can’t deduce much about the nature of God from observing the physical universe how can we ever learn anything about God?

I submit the best we can do is falsify certain theories about God. For example God did not create the Earth in 6 days about 6,000 years ago. God did not transmit the koran verbatim to a seventh century merchant warrior 14 centuries ago. (Not unless you assume God would flunk biology 101 and geology 101)

For the rest I submit all anybody can do is take it “on faith”. You either believe Jesus was the word, the Son of God, God incarnate, God and a mortal man all in one who died for your sins and rose on the third day, or you don’t. If you don’t I doubt there is any argument based on science that can alter your belief.

*Sorry. I am addicted to bad puns. 🙂
 
This is your assumption, and I am going to go along with it - in this thread. Let’s assume that this universe is not all there is. Let’s pretend that your “first something”, “prime whatever”, etc… type of argument was successful. What can be deduced from this assumption? Use your logic only. The only starting point is that the universe does not stand on its own right, that it was created. No reference to faith, revelation and such. No other auxiliary assumptions. What can you say about this creator?

If you don’t like the restrictions, do not post. I am only interested in your logical conclusions. Show me how logical you are. 🙂 I will post my views later. Don’t want to influence your ideas.
Mr. Spock, no offense, but this is about as poor an effort to express the fundamental question as I can imagine, or deduce by logic. Were I your High School logic teacher, I would send you back to the drawing board to form a more cogent base for the debate. The question itself is a restriction in the sense that one can not understand what you are asking one to deduce.
 
I do not think it is possible to divine* the nature of God by observing the physical universe. For one we don’t, and never will, know enough. Are the laws of physics “universal” in the sense of applying to the entire universe or are they merely local bye laws. Are they the same a trillion light years beyond our event horizon as they are on planet Earth today? Will they be the same a trillion years from now?

Is our universe the only universe? Was our big bang a unique event? Are there other universes with different laws of physics and different constants of nature?

At least for now we have no way of answering any of these questions.

But even if we could, what would that tell us? We live inside the universe or “multiverse”. We have no way of looking “outside”.

Suppose you’re confined to a single windowless building. You can never look out. What can you deduce about the character of the architect who designed the building? For one, you do not know under what constraints he was operating.

Well if we can’t deduce much about the nature of God from observing the physical universe how can we ever learn anything about God?
We can deduce that life is immensely valuable because it is a source of opportunities for creativity, adventure, enjoyment, love and fulfilment. Those opportunities need not exist and require explanation. Either they arise for some reason or no reason. I leave you to decide which is more reasonable> 🙂

Ingratitude is a handicap!
 
But even if we could, what would that tell us? We live inside the universe or “multiverse”. We have no way of looking “outside”.

Suppose you’re confined to a single windowless building. You can never look out. What can you deduce about the character of the architect who designed the building? For one, you do not know under what constraints he was operating.
Excellent points, and I totally agree. The only valid logical deduction is that the architect was able to build that building. Nothing less, nothing more. Thanks for you (name removed by moderator)ut. 🙂 Oh, and I love puns! Yours is far from being a bad one, it is a wonderful pun.
 
Mr. Spock, no offense, but this is about as poor an effort to express the fundamental question as I can imagine, or deduce by logic. Were I your High School logic teacher, I would send you back to the drawing board to form a more cogent base for the debate. The question itself is a restriction in the sense that one can not understand what you are asking one to deduce.
It was a bit hidden, because I was curious if you can think outside the box. To make it crystal clear: “is there a logical path from deism to theism”? Assuming a deistic creator, can someone show a logical path to a theistic (Christian) creator - without assuming some kind of “revelation”? Obviously the answer is “no”. And not one of the posters realized the question, which is only indicative of their inability to decipher such a simple riddle.
 
MaxRosen

*I submit the best we can do is falsify certain theories about God. For example God did not create the Earth in 6 days about 6,000 years ago. *

Not only falsify, but confirm.

Genesis, 1000 B.C. : “Let there be light.”

Carl Sagan in Cosmos, 1980 A.D.

“Ten or twenty billion years ago, something happened – the Big Bang, the event that began our universe…. In that titanic cosmic explosion, the universe began an expansion which has never ceased…. As space stretched, the matter and energy in the universe expanded with it and rapidly cooled. The radiation of the cosmic fireball, which, then as now, filled the universe, moved through the spectrum – from gamma rays to X-rays to ultraviolet light; through the rainbow colors of the visible spectrum; into the infrared and radio regions. The remnants of that fireball, the cosmic background radiation, emanating from all parts of the sky can be detected by radio telescopes today. In the early universe, space was brilliantly illuminated.”
 
spock

Use your logic only. The only starting point is that the universe does not stand on its own right, that it was created.

Again, you have limited logic to the function of a computer, not a human being. But a machine acknowledges its designer when it is turned on. It also follows directions of the designer and the maker when so designed and used. When the machine functions in a certain way (such as being obedient to its designer and maker) it demonstrates that it has been designed to behave in such ways. The machine therefore was not only created, but also designed to behave in certain ways. It follows that the Maker is an Intelligent Designer.

Design signifies purpose. A computer is not designed without purpose. We (human computers) are not designed without purpose. We may reasonably infer what our purpose is, especially if the Maker has programmed us to investigate our purpose. It would seem the maker has done just that: programmed us to investigate our purpose; otherwise, why would we investigate our purpose. Is that investigation purposeless?

Prove it. 😃
 
This is your assumption, and I am going to go along with it - in this thread. Let’s assume that this universe is not all there is. Let’s pretend that your “first something”, “prime whatever”, etc… type of argument was successful. What can be deduced from this assumption? Use your logic only. The only starting point is that the universe does not stand on its own right, that it was created. No reference to faith, revelation and such. No other auxiliary assumptions. What can you say about this creator? .
Spock,

This is a fair enough challenge that I will attempt to engage. I ask only that you suspend your beliefs and prejudices and in a philosophical spirit make a sincere attempt to understand my argument; I don’t expect you to accept it, but to evaluate it on the basis of comprehension, plausibility, and coherence, which means you must evaluate the whole argument before you attack the premises. Let us begin:
  1. In the beginning there was nothing; nothing in the sense that there was no matter, time, energy, or even space of the kind that defines the dimensions of our universe; nothing but infinite nothingness.
  2. The nothingness that was of infinite dimension was, however, not a void; it was what might be called pure existence or absolute being: Pure existence because we exist, and if we exist, something must have always existed; existence was not created. Absolute being in the sense that we are “human” beings- dynamic, not static entities.
  3. This nature of existence and being we recognize in our own self-awareness as an impetus to think, to feel, to act. The object that provides such impetus is the mind.
  4. Our mind consists of a physical part, the brain, and a spiritual part that has it origin in the infinite nothingness that gives impetus to the universe, the mind of God. So my thesis about how God informs the universe can be found in the analog that is us. We are made in His image.
  5. So here we have arrived at the mind/body problem: how does the spiritual interact and give impetus to the material part our bodies through the agency of the brain? For it is in the solution of the mind/body problem that the challenge can be met, namely, what can I say about the creator without resorting to faith, revelation and such?.
  6. I contend that the mind/body problem - the interaction of spiritual substance with matter - can be explained on the basis of a spatial duality that exists at the ground of reality.
  7. When Descartes invented analytical geometry he made the tacit assumption that every point in space can be represented by a number; and every number represents a point in space. This was later called the Dedekind Cantor axiom of continuity. It applies to the real numbers and continuous space.
  8. However, let us retan the first part of DCAC assumption of step 7 - every point can be represented by a number, but let us discard the second part and assume that not every number is associated with a point- an equally valid assumption- then what is described is discrete space.
  9. What the assumptions in steps 7 and 8 mean is that we are able to use an abstract element (numbers) to describe a “physical” element (space), the first step for merging the spiritual with the actual. .
  10. The rational numbers are associated with the first transfinite cardinal number, aleph(0) and the real numbers are associated with the second, aleph(1). I assume the continuum hypothesis holds and the aleph(1) = c, the continuum. Aleph(0) and the rational numbers describe discrete space; aleph(1) and the real numbers describe continuous space.
  11. Both aleph(0) and aleph(1) are infinities. Aleph(1) subsumes aleph(0) and, in fact, aleph(0) can be subtracted from aleph(1) without diminishing aleph(1) in the least amount. This allows us to postulate that the material universe (the lesser infinity) is created from discrete space; and the spiritual component has the nature of continuous space (the greater infinity), which is everywhere infinite.
  12. Since there are “gaps” in discrete space as explained by the rational numbers; the dual nature of reality can be explained by envisioning the gaps being “filled” with the continuous space (the spiritual substance). In other words, all matter is permeated with a spiritual substance. Or as Teilhard de Chardin’s argued:
"It is impossible to deny that, deep within ourselves, an ‘interior’ appears at the heart of beings, as it were seen through a rent. This is enough to ensure that, in one degree or another, this ‘interior’ should obtrude itself as existing everywhere in nature from all time. Since, the stuff of the universe has an inner aspect at one point of itself, there is necessarily a double aspect to its structure, that is to say in every region of space and time—in the same way, for instance, as it is granular: co-extensive with their Without, there is a Within to things." (The Phenomenon of Man pg56)

This post merely provides a basis for a much longer argument about the nature of creation, so if you are really interested in an answer to your challenge and have the intellectual wherewithal to understand my argument I will continue. Next stop: how does God create matter from discrete space?

Yppop
 
There is some seriously “bog-standard” philosophy on this thread.😦

What’s the point of saying on a philosophy forum that God loves us if one is not prepared to demonstrate it logically? What is the point of saying that God is perfect if one is not prepared to explain why God must be perfect using logic?😦

Simply listing Gods attributes, or quoting the bible, is not doing philosophy or the philosophy of religion.😦 Simply pointing to a source outside of this forum instead of engaging in the debate is not doing philosophy. Failing to follow the rules of the thread is not doing philosophy. I’m sorry guys, but If anything, its making us look ignorant.:mad:

If you happen to be somebody who has done what Spock has asked, please do not see this post as aimed at you. People think they are doing good, but they are doing harm.

No wonder there’s so many atheists in the world:(.
 
Spock

Answer this question:

If you concede that the one attribute allowed to God is that God is Maker of the universe, why should the Maker have less capacity for design and purpose for his creatures than the creatures have for designing their own purposes?

That is to say, are the creatures more capable of designing their own purposes than the Creator is? If so, why is that logical?
 
Spock,

Before I start please note that I am not Catholic. I do not claim to be presenting Catholic teaching in any shape, manner or form. Everything I write here is my personal opinion.

I do not think it is possible to divine* the nature of God by observing the physical universe. For one we don’t, and never will, know enough. Are the laws of physics “universal” in the sense of applying to the entire universe or are they merely local bye laws. Are they the same a trillion light years beyond our event horizon as they are on planet Earth today? Will they be the same a trillion years from now?

Is our universe the only universe? Was our big bang a unique event? Are there other universes with different laws of physics and different constants of nature?

At least for now we have no way of answering any of these questions.

But even if we could, what would that tell us? We live inside the universe or “multiverse”. We have no way of looking “outside”.

Suppose you’re confined to a single windowless building. You can never look out. What can you deduce about the character of the architect who designed the building? For one, you do not know under what constraints he was operating.

Well if we can’t deduce much about the nature of God from observing the physical universe how can we ever learn anything about God?

I submit the best we can do is falsify certain theories about God. For example God did not create the Earth in 6 days about 6,000 years ago. God did not transmit the koran verbatim to a seventh century merchant warrior 14 centuries ago. (Not unless you assume God would flunk biology 101 and geology 101)

For the rest I submit all anybody can do is take it “on faith”. You either believe Jesus was the word, the Son of God, God incarnate, God and a mortal man all in one who died for your sins and rose on the third day, or you don’t. If you don’t I doubt there is any argument based on science that can alter your belief.

*Sorry. I am addicted to bad puns. 🙂
Nice post. 🙂

I like the image of the building. 👍

I usually use the image of an ant trying to figure out if humans exist.

I am thinking of using your post as a springboard to present my Catholic understanding…we shall see. I am a busy bee. 🙂

Thank you for your contribution.

May the Peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you,

Abba
 
It was a bit hidden, because I was curious if you can think outside the box. To make it crystal clear: “is there a logical path from deism to theism”? Assuming a deistic creator, can someone show a logical path to a theistic (Christian) creator - without assuming some kind of “revelation”? Obviously the answer is “no”. And not one of the posters realized the question, which is only indicative of their inability to decipher such a simple riddle.
Spock, don’t flatter yourself so much. Give us a little credit. You are wrong. I realized the question and as a matter of fact when I read Verdana’s post, I thought, yeah, but he is intentionally leaving it vague. What do you mean ‘which is only indicative of their inability to decipher such simply riddle.’ I pray that someday you will take that back, because I pray that someday God will take the veil down from you and you will be able to see what we see. At that time, you will realize who knew the most and take it back.

Peace,

Abba
 
Originally Posted by JDaniel
You are correct, but only if we were some sort of robots. But, we are not. We are human beings. It is, therefore, completely logical that, after going through an appropriate dialectic, a logical human being could fairly conclude that a creator, with such immense power, would seem to be similar, in many respects, to its foremost creature.
No, it does not follow in a strict logical manner. You assume that the emergence of intelligence, free will, etc… cannot happen ‘by itself . . .’" Can you prove it?
I guess a dialectic is not the process by which science arrives at conclusions? I guess the dialectical series of questions and propositions used by Walter Reed to conclude that yellow fever was borne by mosquitoes, was ill conceived? I guess that a dialectic is not the precursor to inductive logic? Well, you assume “that the emergence of intelligence, free will, etc… can happen ‘by itself’, that it would not lead to a logical contradiction, like a ‘married bachelor’. Can you prove it?” Which assumption do you think is less preposterous? Seriously, I mean.
Originally Posted by JDaniel
Inductive logic can also take us to the conclusion that only something greater than the universe could have created it. For that which is greater is not created by that which is lesser. If this immense universe was created by that which is greater, that creator could not be finite.
Greater in what respect? No, it does not follow that the creator must be infinite. How does one even define an “infinite being”?
Notwithstanding that you will no doubt find fault with this, I will start by admitting that this is merely intuitive, but: no finite thing has ever created a finite thing – with “create” properly defined to mean “to make something to be where there was not anything before.” Now, on to “infinite being:” we define an infinite being as one, simple, un-bounded, immobile, creative without limitation, prime mover, prime cause, non-contingent, thus, necessary absolutely, the source of the category of being, the ultimate reason, or purpose, of every being, and a being lacking no perfection.
Originally Posted by JDaniel
“Sentience” must follow from this creation. The universe cannot be the creature of blind power. The creator cannot be apathetic to what it is creating. The logical premise for this is grounded in the continual order that we see. Not to mention that an infinite creator is still creating, as far as we’re concerned.
Show me a logical contradiction which proves that a non-sentient being, or power cannot “create” something that exhibits order. Examples to the contrary are abound. Termites are not sentient, and yet they create structures of high complexity. They create precise air-conditioning in their mounds, where the humidity stays between precise limits for the queen.
Rather, you “Show me a logic which proves that a non-sentient being, or power can ‘create’ something that exhibits order.” It was you who followed up with:
“Examples . . . abound.”

Termites do not “create.” Termites are fairly decent efficient causes. They use existing materials to build their structures. That is using the term “create” in a loose and overly-wide sense. The strict definition of create is different from that of efficient cause. The latter requires already existing material upon which to act; the former, by necessity, does not. You should know this after all this time in these fora. 😉
Originally Posted by JDaniel
But it precisely follows that the creator is still around. An infinite, non-physical creator would not scurry off to some corner of the universe, or multi-verse. It is infinite; it’s everywhere: there’s no secluded place to hide. Besides, it is still creating.
Since the “infinite” nature of the creator has not been established, none of this follows. The continued existence of a builder is not necessary to the continued existence of the house.
I have defined “infinite being” above. It is true that a builder does not need to remain in existence after the house is built, but, a builder, as a finite efficient cause, is not definitionally or conceptually an “infinite creator.” And, if you tell me that I am re-defining terms, I will tell you that you are straw-manning. 😛

continued . . .
 
continuation . . .
Originally Posted by JDaniel
But, Spock, that would be impossible. As I said earlier, the creator could not be indifferent to the creature. If it were, there would not be any necessity of order, nor any fine-tuning for the precarious existence of life, unless one postulates a negligibly chance event. Which one is more preposterous?We are not talking about which one do you find more probable. We are talking about what is a logical necessity.
But, that is a logical necessity: if a creator was indifferent to its creation, creation would be nothing more than pure, un-relational chaos. Instead, we find pure relational order.
Originally Posted by JDaniel
Furthermore, we are immediately struck by the fact that everything seems to have a purpose, some things even multiple purposes. Since all of the things we see have purposes, it would be completely illogical that an infinite creator, that would create this universe out of complete deference, would do so for no reason. Would it not?
Seems like? It does not seem like that at all. What is the purpose of a volcano eruption, or a tsunami? Continued settling of the earth’s crust. But even if it were “purposefully” arranged, it would not logically follow that the creator is interested in humans. And if it would be interested in humans, its interest could be based on entertainment, or having a gruesome interest in our squirming during natural disasters.
Well, then, I guess we should all either be squirming and dancing right now, or, we soon will be. An investigation of this sort would be easy, would it not? We could disinter newly laid-to-rest bodies, from 100 divergent locals, and check the bones and muscles for signs of “squirming.” 🙂
But my point was: “assuming a deistic creator”, who merely sets the universe in motion, where does the logical path lead? It does not lead anywhere. I purposefully did not mention the “deistic creator”, so not to make it too obvious. The idea of a deistic creator is not logically contradictory. And there is no logical path from deism to theism.
That is logically incorrect. A “deistic creator” would be indifferent to its creation by definition. As I proposed above, creation could be nothing other than pure, un-relational chaos. That would assume, furthermore, limitation. If it is, therefore, a limited being, where is it hiding? Surely the Hubble could find it. 😛

God bless,
jd
 
It was a bit hidden, because I was curious if you can think outside the box. To make it crystal clear: “is there a logical path from deism to theism”? Assuming a deistic creator, can someone show a logical path to a theistic (Christian) creator - without assuming some kind of “revelation”? Obviously the answer is “no”. And not one of the posters realized the question, which is only indicative of their inability to decipher such a simple riddle.
Your darn right it was hidden, Mr. Spock. Theism is the belief system that states there is at least on God. Deism also states a belief in God, albeit an impersonal God. Theism need not be Christian nor does the theistic God need to be personal, as the Christian God is. Like I say, back to the drawing board. More like the Riddler than Mr. Spock.
 
This is your assumption, and I am going to go along with it - in this thread. Let’s assume that this universe is not all there is. Let’s pretend that your “first something”, “prime whatever”, etc… type of argument was successful. What can be deduced from this assumption? Use your logic only. The only starting point is that the universe does not stand on its own right, that it was created. No reference to faith, revelation and such. No other auxiliary assumptions. What can you say about this creator?

If you don’t like the restrictions, do not post. I am only interested in your logical conclusions. Show me how logical you are. 🙂 I will post my views later. Don’t want to influence your ideas.
Unlike all the other people on here, I have no clue what you are even asking.

I do have a few comments though. You are denigrating our beliefs to assumptions. That is a little offensive and not a good tactic. I am sure you do not mean it that but, all is forgiven anyway. With all that said, I will give it a shot and see how close to nowhere I get.

This Creator obviously had a reason to create it. All beings (with wills) do things that are dictated by motive. There are reasons behind that motive. That is evidenced by us. Everything we do is dictated by motive. Whether or not we want to is a different story. But, there is still a reason to act whether or not we want to. If we were to create something, then we would definitely have a purpose with that something. We can use that same reasoning for this Creator of something. Let us call that something, universe.

I think it is safe to assume that there cannot be neither good nor evil. At least one has to exist. But without good, we cannot know what evil is or perhaps even know it. So, evil cannot exist on its own. But there can always be good without evil or without even knowing evil. (But not necessarily perfection without imperfection, arguably). A peaceful family or even attainable ideals can be proof of that. Good can exist without evil. With that said, it is clear that this universe created by said Creator MUST be, at the very least, good. (I know you probably disagree). This is my reasoning. Of course, to me it seems sound, but that is probably just me.

Also, all rational beings search for something besides the necessities of life, but being the Creator, I think it safe to assume He did not need a burger or water to satisfy His hunger because He was not hungry. (Although if I was God, I would certainly have indulged in ketchup and a burger from Bennigan’s) All rational beings search for three things: Life, Truth and Love. Truth because there would be no point in rationale if it were not for the search of something to use rationalieties on. That something is Truth. Love because that is the point of living, whether it be meaning or fulfilling desires or what not… We all want to be loved and we all search for something to Love, whether it be legitimate or perverted (which is not fulfilling to either Truth or Life but there are wackos out there). Life, not just mere living, because we all want to live a life worth living. Otherwise, there would be no point in being a rational being. Because that “rational being” would just be.

With this said, the Creator would create other rational beings in order that He may Love and be loved. Perhaps, that may be selfish but we do the same thing. Nor do want to force people to Love us or force ourselves to Love others because Love would not exist between them in either case. And there could not be that Love without another Life. And there is arguably nothing that compares to the Truth of being loved by something one has created. Take an infant son and his mother for example. You see that and facts just do not seem to matter, but rather they just exist. Reality contains two real things: Truth and fact. Facts are always Truth but Truths are not necessarily always facts. (A square is always a rectangle but a rectangle is not always a square.) Because obviously at some point in time, this child CAN not Love her. (This part is just speculation on my part.) Facts do not change. And Truth cannot contradict Truth.

By universe, we can assume that we mean material and immaterial because the principles of the cosmos exist also in this universe. (Tell me if you disagree on that part.) The Creator created these Truths also since they are considered in what we call “universe”. He created Life. He created Love. Since these are things that have to come from themselves., Truth has to come from Truth. Life has to come from Life and Love must come from Love (or perhaps Life). The Creator has to be the Source of Life, Truth and Love and perhaps even BE Life, Truth and Love. And of course, with all this junk said, if we say that the universe must be at LEAST good, then this Creator (via my reasoning) MUST be at least good. But a being cannot be both good AND evil. There can be evil tendencies within the good but the very being CANNOT be BOTH of them. So, if Creator is at least good, then He MUST be good (according to my unreasonable reasoning). So, then nothing can from Him except for good. So, the universe must be good.

I do not think I ever do your questions justice. But again, here it is. I imagine you are going to have quarrels with everything I just said. This is my illogic.

May this assumed Creator bless you! 🙂

(I hope you take no offense by that part.)
 
Spock

*If you concede that the one attribute allowed to God is that God is Maker of the universe, why should the Maker have less capacity for design and purpose for his creatures than the creatures have for designing their own purposes?

That is to say, are the creatures more capable of designing their own purposes than the Creator is? If so, why is that logical? *

Still waiting for your answer … if you have one. 😉
 
Hi Abba

And thanks for your kind words.

Actually I think our situation is even worse than I stated. It’s not so much that we’re confined to a single building as that we’re confined to a few rooms within that building. We don’t even have the run of the building! What floor are we on?

A question:

Am I correct in saying that Catholic dogma requires you to believe certain things but does not require you to believe any “proofs” for those beliefs? You can simply take the beliefs on faith?

I think that’s important because, in truth, I do not think there are any “proofs” in the sense of logical argument based on observable data that would compel an open-minded sceptic to conclude that theism was the only possible explanation for what we see. I know many people would like to believe there are such proofs. I know that many Catholics have found lines of reasoning that they consider compelling.

But, in truth, I think the issue of theism is “undecidable” from a scientific perspective. Those who believe they have proved the existence of God and those who believe they have disproved his existence – like Dawkins – are equally misguided.

For those who believe they can prove the existence of God I ask you to consider this. For most of our history it seemed self-evident that the universe was created for us. Philosophers like Aristotle did not have to state that explicitly. It was taken for granted. After all, weren’t we the centre of the universe?

All that started to change in 1610 when Galileo pointed the first astronomical telescope at the skies. It is no longer possible for us to assert, on scientific grounds, that we are the main event in the universe. If we rely solely on science then we must admit to the possibility that we are no more than a sideshow. (Strangely it seems that atheists, rather than theists, are most discomfited when I point this out).

Consider Romans 9:21

“ Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?”

Could that apply to species as well as to individuals? For all we know we are for “common use” and some other species a trillion light years away is for “special purposes”.

Spock

Glad you liked my pun. 🙂
 
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