Ok, need an answer to this question

[Genesis315]

yes, i’d like to know that myself if genesis wouldn’t mind?

Oh, I don’t know --I’ve seen it debated endlessly on here–it seems clear to me from Ecclesia Dei but I like to give folks the benefit of the doubt if they read it differently .

edit: ahh, that letter makes it even more clear .

 

[TraditionalCath]

Oh, I don’t know --I’ve seen it debated endlessly on here–it seems clear to me from Ecclesia Dei but I like to give folks the benefit of the doubt if they read it differently .

edit: ahh, that letter makes it even more clear .

doesn’t it though? i thought so!

 

[skifast]

There is a difference between having the power to do something and the authority. For example, I can shoot you with a gun, however I do not have the right to do so.

Any priest validly ordained, not the novus ordo right, has the power to absolve, to consecrate the bread and wine, to perform extreme unction, regardless of what the Novus Ordo church says, or the True Church says.

Basic Catholic catechism.

 

[TraditionalCath]

There is a difference between having the power to do something and the authority. For example, I can shoot you with a gun, however I do not have the right to do so.

Any priest validly ordained, not the novus ordo right, has the power to absolve, to consecrate the bread and wine, to perform extreme unction, regardless of what the Novus Ordo church says, or the True Church says.

Basic Catholic catechism.

Not if the Church says so. Ecclesia Dei is very clear on this in regards to the SSPX.

 

[skifast]

He may be sinning by doing so, but Holy Orders gives him the power to do so. Really basic stuff.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Really basic stuff.

As is “he doesn’t possess the faculties.” Basic Catholic stuff, anyway.

 

[TraditionalCath]

As is “he doesn’t possess the faculties.” Basic Catholic stuff, anyway.

 

[laudamus_te]

Not if the Church says so. Ecclesia Dei is very clear on this in regards tot he SSPX.

But if you really read it carefully, you will see the truth. “How can I word this so as to scare off the laity without actually giving proof of the force of law.”

The priests of the Society of St. Pius X are validly ordained, but suspended, that is prohibited from exercising their priestly functions because they are not properly incardinated in a diocese or religious institute in full communion with the Holy See and also because those ordained after the episcopal ordinations were ordained by an excommunicated bishop. They are also excommunicated if they adhere to the schism. While up to now the Holy See has not defined what this adherence consists in, one could point to a wholesale condemnation of the Church since the Second Vatican Council and a refusal to be in communion with it.

Yes, one could “point.” But nevertheless, the Holy See has not defined what this adherence consists in.

Further, **it is likely **that these priests, after eleven years in a society whose head is now an excommunicated bishop, effectively adhere to the schism.

Concretely this means that the Masses offered by the priests of the Society of St. Pius X are valid, but illicit i.e, contrary to Canon Law. The Sacraments of Penance and Matrimony however, require that the priest enjoys the faculties of the diocese or has proper delegation. Since that is not the case with these priests, these sacraments are invalid. It remains true, however, that, if the faithful are genuinely ignorant that the priests of the Society of St. Pius X do not have the proper faculty to absolve, the Church supplied these faculties so that the sacrament was valid (cf. Code of Canon Law c.144).

The situation of the faithful attending chapels of the Society of St. Pius X is more complicated. They may attend Mass there primarily because of an attraction to the earlier forms of the Roman Rite in which case they incur no penalty. The difficulty is that the longer they frequent these chapels, the more likely it is that they will slowly imbibe the schismatic mentality which stands in judgement of the Church and refuses submission to the Roman Pontiff and communion with the members of the Church subject to him. **If **that becomes the case, then **it would seem **that they adhere to the schism and are consequently excommunicated.

Not exactly written in stone, is it?

For these reasons this Pontifical Commission cannot encourage you to frequent the chapels of the Society of St. Pius X. On the other hand it would seem that you are among those who attend Mass in chapels of the Society of St. Pius X because of the reverence and devotion which they find there, because of their attraction to the traditional Latin Mass and not because they refuse submission to the Roman Pontiff or reject communion with the members of the Church subject to him. At the same time it must be admitted that this is an irregular situation, even if the circumstances which have caused it have come about through no fault of your own, and it should be remedied as soon as circumstances permit.

But they also cannot prohibit, as they darn well know.

 

[jmcrae]

But they also cannot prohibit, as they darn well know.

They can’t really “prohibit” anything, can they? - what are they going to do, come to your house and give you a really good talking to?

You could have them arrested for harrassment, if they did.

However, it is still up to the Church to define who is in full communion, and who is not, even if they can’t burn people at the stake anymore.

The only thing they can do is appeal to people’s good will and honest intentions, which is obviously what they are attempting to do here.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

The only thing they can do is appeal to people’s good will and honest intentions, which is obviously what they are attempting to do here.

And warn, which the old Holy Father clearly did in Ecclesia Dei.

 

[Icarus210]

SSPX priests are subject to their own Bishops and are entitiled to to cross into other dioceses at the invitation of the faithful if they (the faithful) feel they are not getting what they need from their own bishops. The Society was properly and validly given permission and orders by the then Bishop of France… the proceeding bishop had no canon right whatsoever to withdraw permission, that then had to come directly from Rome, which never has… Hence it is still a valid society.

So the priests can say ALL the sacrements including absolution.

Iccy.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

SSPX priests are subject to their own Bishops and are entitiled to to cross into other dioceses at the invitation of the faithful if they (the faithful) feel they are not getting what they need from their own bishops. The Society was properly and validly given permission and orders by the then Bishop of France… the proceeding bishop had no canon right whatsoever to withdraw permission, that then had to come directly from Rome, which never has… Hence it is still a valid society.

So the priests can say ALL the sacrements including absolution.

Iccy.

Please cite your sources for this information. The priests are not “entitiled” to enter any diocese to offer sacramental ministry, regardless of who asks them. Also, their “permission” was not renewed (and there is no Bishop of France, but if there was, he most certainly WOULD have the authority to withdraw a permission he had previously granted. Check with a canon lawyer if you have doubts about that).

You are mistaken. The priests do not have proper faculties to administer the sacraments.

 

[Icarus210]

References provided in “The aplologia of Marcel Lefevbre” by Michael Davies.

The original Bishop was not the same bishop who cancelled the orders… he was his successor… I apologise as i cant remember his name… He was a French Bishop.

Iccy

 

[JKirkLVNV]

References provided in “The aplologia of Marcel Lefevbre” by Michael Davies.

The original Bishop was not the same bishop who cancelled the orders… he was his successor… I apologise as i cant remember his name… He was a French Bishop.

Iccy

The facts aren’t straight (maybe he wrote it before the schismatic ordinations, I don’t know. Before that, the Society did operate with permission). According to the Holy See, the society now operates under no mandate of the Holy See or any bishop in communion with the Holy See.

 

[Icarus210]

NOVEMBER 1, 1970
The Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) is officially recognized by the Bishop of Lausanne, Geneva, and Fribourg, Bishop Charriere. It is therefore truly a new little branch pushed forth by the Church.

FEBRUARY 18, 1971

Cardinal Wright, Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Clergy, issues a decree praising the wisdom of the Society’s statutes.

JUNE 10, 1971

Archbishop Lefebvre announces, together with the staff of the International Seminary of St. Pius X at Econe (Switzerland), the refusal to adopt the Novus Ordo Missae (cf. QUESTION 5).

1971 - 1974

Following on Cardinal Wright’s letter are other sure signs of Rome’s full acceptance of the SSPX:

Allowing its houses to be erected canonically in one Italian and two Swiss dioceses.

Allowing three outside priests to join the Society and to be incardinated directly into it.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

NOVEMBER 1, 1970
The Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) is officially recognized by the Bishop of Lausanne, Geneva, and Fribourg, Bishop Charriere. It is therefore truly a new little branch pushed forth by the Church.

FEBRUARY 18, 1971

Cardinal Wright, Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Clergy, issues a decree praising the wisdom of the Society’s statutes.

JUNE 10, 1971

Archbishop Lefebvre announces, together with the staff of the International Seminary of St. Pius X at Econe (Switzerland), the refusal to adopt the Novus Ordo Missae (cf. QUESTION 5).

1971 - 1974

Following on Cardinal Wright’s letter are other sure signs of Rome’s full acceptance of the SSPX:

Allowing its houses to be erected canonically in one Italian and two Swiss dioceses.

Allowing three outside priests to join the Society and to be incardinated directly into it.

But check out the history AFTER that. The bishop’s successor withdrew the permission. Archbishop Lefebreve appealed to the Holy See, but his appeal was denied. After 1975, the SSPX ceased to operate with the permission and approbation of any proper authority of the Church.

 

[bear06]

NOVEMBER 1, 1970
The Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) is officially recognized by the Bishop of Lausanne, Geneva, and Fribourg, Bishop Charriere. It is therefore truly a new little branch pushed forth by the Church.

FEBRUARY 18, 1971

Cardinal Wright, Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Clergy, issues a decree praising the wisdom of the Society’s statutes.

JUNE 10, 1971

Archbishop Lefebvre announces, together with the staff of the International Seminary of St. Pius X at Econe (Switzerland), the refusal to adopt the Novus Ordo Missae (cf. QUESTION 5).

1971 - 1974

Following on Cardinal Wright’s letter are other sure signs of Rome’s full acceptance of the SSPX:

Allowing its houses to be erected canonically in one Italian and two Swiss dioceses.

Allowing three outside priests to join the Society and to be incardinated directly into it.

You can’t just stop there. You need to go on with there history. Pete Vere has done a huge history in his study in his
A CANONICAL HISTORY OF THE LEFEBVRITE SCHISM

sspx.agenda.tripod.com/id8.html

 

[BobP123]

Pete Vere has done a huge history in his study in his

Pete Vere is a Canon Lawyer and a very persuasive writer. (I know, because I was on the same mailing list with him several years ago.) But he is just another SSPX basher and is no Church spokesman. I could easily find FSSP and ICR bashers for that matter but what would be the point? Official statements from Rome I would look towards, not bashers.

 

[MariaGorettiGrl]

SSPX priests are subject to their own Bishops

Doesn’t the fact that the SSPX church has it’s own bishops and doesn’t acknowledge the authority of the bishop that all the other Catholic churches in the area are under tell you something?

 

[LilyM]

SSPX priests are subject to their own Bishops and are entitiled to to cross into other dioceses at the invitation of the faithful if they (the faithful) feel they are not getting what they need from their own bishops. The Society was properly and validly given permission and orders by the then Bishop of France… the proceeding bishop had no canon right whatsoever to withdraw permission, that then had to come directly from Rome, which never has… Hence it is still a valid society.

So the priests can say ALL the sacrements including absolution.

Iccy.

Doesn’t matter how many faithful invite a priest (SSPX or any other) into the diocese - that priest needs faculties granted by the local ordinary to celebrate at least some of the sacraments.