OK to remove poster from public bulletin board you disagree with, or not?

[Sir_Knight]

And once again…the Law of God supercedes the Law of Man.

Now, before Sir Knight comes back with one of his eloquent “Mr. Smith Goes to Washington”-esque rants about free speech and respect. Let’s break it down like this.

You will note that my position is extremely one sided. The reason for this is, I do not care if Protestants, Muslims, Jews, Pagans, Atheists or Golden Unicorns respect my religion. I do not rely on the respect of false religions to continue worshipping in mine.

That being said, if I found a flyer which was detrimental to the souls of my fellow humans, I would remove it.

Now, Sir Knight will most likely retort with something about the Law of God calling for me to obey the law of man.

I see no law which tells me I cannot remove things from a public bulletin board.

Also, the law of God, i.e. the first commandment, supercedes any civil law which, due to its secular nature, would indirectly be used to promote a religion which draws people away from God.

Just because something is legal, does not mean it is moral. Just because something is illegal, does not mean it is immoral.

Let me put it another way … the church that I belong to runs a parish festival once a year. Many parishes in the area do this. This is done to raise money. A successful parish festival could mean the difference between the parish staying in the black or being in the red – financially speaking. A lot of work and planning goes into this activity. If it rains on that week-end, and turn out is low, the parish has ended up running a deficit for that year. So we need all the help that we can get.

The parish festival is open to all. Many non-parish folks show up to have a good time and spend their money. We pay a fee to the town to put up signs around town. These signs actually bring in a lot of local folks who otherwise would not know that we are having a festival.

If someone, who under the mistaken impression, thought that Catholics were leading people to hell and that he was doing God’s will and obeying God’s laws and took down those signs, it would cause a financil hardship on our parish. If it happened a few years in a row and we continued to operate in the red, the parish would be in danger of closing down.

Now, of course, that would be the goal of that person – to fight the Catholic church because in their mind, the Catholic church is evil and if one church closes down, then it’s at least one less church that will lead people astray in their minds.

My position is that they do not have a right to do that. Whether it dozens of signs over the course of several years or just one sign only once.

And if they do not have that right – to impose their beliefs on us, then neither do we … to impose our beliefs on them.

Do you see my point?

Yes, they could, and were this an issue of constitutional rights or this country being a “free” country, you would be 100% correct. However, we are not taking this stand from the secular standpoint of a civil rights activist. We are siding with the teachings of the church.

If a Baptist removed my poster, I’d put up another one.

And by the way, I doubt the Baptist would care so much about my poster if there was a pagan one right beside it.

Suppose you couldn’t put up another poster because by the time you noticed that the posters were gone and you had new ones made up, the bulk of the festival was over and it negatively impacted things?

 

[TimOliv]

Let me put it another way … the church that I belong to runs a parish festival once a year. Many parishes in the area do this. This is done to raise money. A successful parish festival could mean the difference between the parish staying in the black or being in the red – financially speaking. A lot of work and planning goes into this activity. If it rains on that week-end, and turn out is low, the parish has ended up running a deficit for that year. So we need all the help that we can get.

The parish festival is open to all. Many non-parish folks show up to have a good time and spend their money. We pay a fee to the town to put up signs around town. These signs actually bring in a lot of local folks who otherwise would not know that we are having a festival.

If someone, who under the mistaken impression, thought that Catholics were leading people to hell and that he was doing God’s will and obeying God’s laws and took down those signs, it would cause a financil hardship on our parish. If it happened a few years in a row and we continued to operate in the red, the parish would be in danger of closing down.

Now, of course, that would be the goal of that person – to fight the Catholic church because in their mind, the Catholic church is evil and if one church closes down, then it’s at least one less church that will lead people astray in their minds.

My position is that they do not have a right to do that. Whether it dozens of signs over the course of several years or just one sign only once.

And if they do not have that right – to impose their beliefs on us, then neither do we … to impose our beliefs on them.

Do you see my point?

No, because your point is irrelevant. You PAY to put posters up. A Community bulletin board is free.

Also, I really don’t care what the Protestants may think. They do not have the RIGHT to do anything to our posters, perhaps according to the US Government they do, but not within our church. And quite frankly, the church counts for more.

 

[bquinnan]

Also, the law of God, i.e. the first commandment, supercedes any civil law which, due to its secular nature, would indirectly be used to promote a religion which draws people away from God.

Just because something is legal, does not mean it is moral. Just because something is illegal, does not mean it is immoral.

If anyone doubts this, they should consider the stories of Daniel in the lions’ den and Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the fiery furnace. Daniel was prohibited under civil law from doing something that was morally required of him. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego were required under civil law to do something that was morally prohibited. In both cases, civil laws were broken and God clearly took the side of the civil-law breakers, because they were obedient to His law.

 

[Sailboat]

If anyone doubts this, they should consider the stories of Daniel in the lions’ den and Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the fiery furnace. Daniel was prohibited under civil law from doing something that was morally required of him. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego were required under civil law to do something that was morally prohibited. In both cases, civil laws were broken and God clearly took the side of the civil-law breakers, because they were obedient to His law.

I’m pretty sure that disobeying civil law in these cases was so the Jews could fullfill their religious observances, not just to anonymously rip down someone else’s posters. There’s nothing noble about tearing down a poster when no one is looking. If someone really cares about others, then they’ll reach out to them in a meaningful way.

Ripping down someone’s poster is hardly evangelism in any meaningful way.

 

[mommyof4]

I’m pretty sure that disobeying civil law in these cases was so the Jews could fullfill their religious observances, not just to anonymously rip down someone else’s posters. There’s nothing noble about tearing down a poster when no one is looking. If someone really cares about others, then they’ll reach out to them in a meaningful way.

Ripping down someone’s poster is hardly evangelism in any meaningful way.

I agree.

I am in favor of civil disobedience when it is called for. Ripping down a poster is not practising civil disobedience or evangelizing in any way. It’s just being disrespectful. If you want to change hearts, then teach and set an example of Godly living.

 

[Sir_Knight]

No, because your point is irrelevant.

It’s completely relevant.

You PAY to put posters up.

And how can you tell between a poster that paid the town fee and a poster that didn’t?

A Community bulletin board is free.

It still cost them time & money to make the poster.

Also, I really don’t care what the Protestants may think.

And I’m sure that a lot of them don’t care what Catholics may think. So what’s the point?

They do not have the RIGHT to do anything to our posters

So what gives you the right to do something to somebody else’s poster?

 

[Pug]

If the flyer is advertising a religious gathering or something that could be construed in that category (astral projection could be a religious activity, afaik), then I see no reason to remove it. Each man is free to follow his religion, and religious groups are free to assemble together. A flyer that in all other respects follows civil law and order is not to be removed merely because the gathering is for a religion that isn’t Catholic, even if most aspects of that religion are objectively erroneous.

I’m assuming a public sort of general notice board, designed to allow communication of gatherings within the local community.

One possible effect of someone observing you rip a poster down in those circumstances is a deterioration in the social compact. Also, if the person who placed the poster repeatedly sees it ripped down, this is not likely to increase their sense of freedom to pursue truth.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Maybe instead of removing the poster, we should carry warning labels and apply them where they need to be:

[sign]CAUTION: THIS POSTER CONTAINS HERESY WHICH MAY DAMAGE THE BODY, MIND, AND SOUL, AND REMOVE ALL HOPE OF SALVATION[/sign]

 

[Sailboat]

[SIGN]Great Idea, Alan![/SIGN]

 

[mommyof4]

I love it! Can someone here make up the stickies and send them to all of us?

 

[Saul.Tentmaker]

He permits it (sin) but does not directly will it. I explained this briefly in the post you partly quoted.

So likewise, I will permit abortion advertisements (I don’t go around hunting for them to tear them down) without actively willing that such advertisements exist (and, as that will could be efficacious, I will decide not to hang up abortion posters).

Instead, in accord with my will to stop abortions, I will operate within the law to do so. No firebombing abortion clinics for me.

 

[Sir_Knight]

So if your church or parish advertized an event, you would have no problem if somebody plastered that kind of sticker over it …

[sign]CAUTION: THIS POSTER CONTAINS HERESY WHICH MAY DAMAGE THE BODY, MIND, AND SOUL, AND REMOVE ALL HOPE OF SALVATION[/sign]

 

[AlanFromWichita]

So if your church or parish advertized an event, you would have no problem if somebody plastered that kind of sticker over it …

[sign]CAUTION: THIS POSTER CONTAINS HERESY WHICH MAY DAMAGE THE BODY, MIND, AND SOUL, AND REMOVE ALL HOPE OF SALVATION[/sign]

Of course, then I’d have to retaliate by using my trusty Sharpie and writing in, “Does not either! Disregard above sticker…”

Maybe we would need anti-stickers and anti-anti-sticker-stickers. This doesn’t seem like a permanent solution, either. I was “inspired” by the last school board in Kansas who required warning stickers on science books.

Alan

 

[Sailboat]

So if your church or parish advertized an event, you would have no problem if somebody plastered that kind of sticker over it …

[sign]CAUTION: THIS POSTER CONTAINS HERESY WHICH MAY DAMAGE THE BODY, MIND, AND SOUL, AND REMOVE ALL HOPE OF SALVATION[/sign]

Good Point Sir Knight!

 

[TimOliv]

All of you seem to have this bug about being “fair” even if what you are doing would be morally acceptable. So let me pose this situation to all of you.

There you are, newly ordained hospital chaplain, working in the hospital when suddenly a mother gives birth to a very ill child. The child is most likely going to die. The parents are Orthodox Jews. Do you baptize the child even though the parents would object?

 

[Sailboat]

All of you seem to have this bug about being “fair” even if what you are doing would be morally acceptable. So let me pose this situation to all of you.

There you are, newly ordained hospital chaplain, working in the hospital when suddenly a mother gives birth to a very ill child. The child is most likely going to die. The parents are Orthodox Jews. Do you baptize the child even though the parents would object?

I think the Church teaches that this is wrong, to baptize without permission. Also, I think that those children go to Heaven, don’t you?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

All of you seem to have this bug about being “fair” even if what you are doing would be morally acceptable. So let me pose this situation to all of you.

There you are, newly ordained hospital chaplain, working in the hospital when suddenly a mother gives birth to a very ill child. The child is most likely going to die. The parents are Orthodox Jews. Do you baptize the child even though the parents would object?

First, since I am an employee of the hospital, I probably need to observe any rules the hospital has on this. My guess is that a hospital, especially if public, would have a hard time explaining why one of their employees performed a religious ritual against a child’s parents’ wishes.

That said, I can pray for that baby in any way I can, unbeknownst to the parents. If I perform a “ritual” though such as pouring water on the baby against the parents’ objection then it is intrusive and problematic.

It seems to me that a hospital chaplain would be well prepared to be familiar with various popular religions so I should be able to perform a ceremony that is appropriate for the situation and respectful of the parents’ faith.

I’m not sure how, if at all, we can translate the moral equivalence here though because in one case you are a paid employee doing your job for a worldly master (the hospital) and in another you are a member of the public-at-large exercising what you believe to be freedom.

Alan

 

[Catholig]

I read the OP and not much else so excuse me if someone has stated this but I don’t think the Catholic Church would look down on anyone who removes a bulletin, contrary to the faith, from a public forum, such as a bulliten board. In fact while I have not read Quanta Cura (1864) according to wikipedia it says that it condemns certain aspects of Freedom of Speech. This I have no problem believing, and even agree with, for if the church accepts freedom of speech fully then it accepts those who spread lies and heresies. Freedom of Speech is fine in democracy, however the christian should be weary to embrace it full heartedly. In my opinion the only way freedom of speech, or capitalism, or anything else can function without causing evil is with firm morals in the background. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with removing an immoral display.

Catholig

 

[Sir_Knight]

If you impose your will on someone, can that person be credited for any good that is done? Can that person be held accountable for any wrong that is done?

Is it any wonder that God created us with a free will and even Almighty God who can do anything, will not violate our free will?

If violating our free will is something that even Almighty God will not do, how dare we?

 

[TimOliv]

First, since I am an employee of the hospital, I probably need to observe any rules the hospital has on this. My guess is that a hospital, especially if public, would have a hard time explaining why one of their employees performed a religious ritual against a child’s parents’ wishes.

That said, I can pray for that baby in any way I can, unbeknownst to the parents. If I perform a “ritual” though such as pouring water on the baby against the parents’ objection then it is intrusive and problematic.

It seems to me that a hospital chaplain would be well prepared to be familiar with various popular religions so I should be able to perform a ceremony that is appropriate for the situation and respectful of the parents’ faith.

I’m not sure how, if at all, we can translate the moral equivalence here though because in one case you are a paid employee doing your job for a worldly master (the hospital) and in another you are a member of the public-at-large exercising what you believe to be freedom.

Alan

Canon 868

§1. For the licit baptism of an infant it is necessary that:

        1 the parents or at least one of them or the person who lawfully takes their place gives consent;

        2 there be a founded hope that the infant will be brought up in the Catholic religion; if such a hope is altogether lacking, the baptism is to be put off according to the prescriptions of particular law and the parents are to be informed of the reason.

§2. The infant of Catholic parents, in fact of non-Catholic parents also, who is in danger of death is licitly baptized even against the will of the parents.

Way to go, you chose your job over the salvation of a child. Now you get to answer for that at your own judgement!