Ok. What does "poorly catechized" mean?

[JoshuaIsLord]

Being an Ex Knight Of Columbus, those being “poorly catechized” means not being able to answer what most of us would consider basic Catholic question. For the last 20 years when I was a Knight, I attended every Ceremony being either the Financial Secretary or Grand Knight. The cradles are the worlds worst at not being able to not answer the basic questions present during the degree.

 

[yankeesouth]

What does “poorly catechized” mean?

Think ‘spirit’ of Vatican II and you’re on your way to understanding what being poorly catechized means.

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

You recognize that you’ve missed a critical step, right?

No, I don’t think so.

Yeah, you really have. Sorry to have to be the one to inform you of it.

Maybe you mean that each and every pope and bishop must step up and loudly declare from the rooftops that a certain topic is declared “authoritatively”. It is sufficient if it is accepted by them.

And you’ve got proof of this ‘acceptance’?

And to deny the literal interpretation of Genesis would have been a heresy, with the well-known consequences.

You’re misinformed.

Please read up on Augustine’s “On the Literal Interpretation of Genesis.” (NB: he suffered no consequences, well-known or otherwise, for penning this essay.)

The denial of the idea that the Earth was the center of the universe cost Giordano Bruno his life.

sigh.

From the Wiki page on Bruno:

Starting in 1593, Bruno was tried for heresy by the Roman Inquisition on charges of denial of several core Catholic doctrines, including eternal damnation, the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, the virginity of Mary, and transubstantiation. Bruno’s pantheism was also a matter of grave concern, as was his teaching of the transmigration of the soul (reincarnation). The Inquisition found him guilty, and he was burned at the stake in Rome’s Campo de’ Fiori in 1600.

Here’s my advice to you: stop listening to whomever’s telling you these tales about the Catholic Church. They’re so mistaken and misinformed that it makes you look silly when you repeat their outlandish stories…

 

[JamalChristophr]

What steps will ensure that the “applicant” is properly catechized? I am curious. Is reading the catechism sufficient?

I think if a person read through all the Catechism of the Catholic Church in a thoughtful, prayerful, and somewhat systematic manner, they would be very well catechized, provided they understood what they read, and could remember a certain portion of what they learned.

This is an interesting discussion, thanks for posting the question.

(But most people are not going to sit down and read through the whole catechism. An excellent RCIA class that one attends regularly should do a much better job of catechizing.)

 

[Ioana]

I’d have a question for all those answering this thread who are all probably better catechized than me. What questions should a well-catechized person be able to answer?

 

[Scowler]

And you’ve got proof of this ‘acceptance’?

It is the definition of the ordinary magisterium. The pope and the bishops all accepted the literal interpretation of the events described in the Genesis (along with the rest mentioned). Only very recently has the requirement of literal acceptance changed. And a “generally held” opinion (of the bishops) IS the ordinary magisterium.

You can’t really be suggesting that the Catechism is ‘useless’ or ‘not authoritative’ simply because it’s not in the format you’d like it to be in… are you?

Not just that. It is because the different editions of the catechism are significantly different. The Baltimore Catechism is different from the last edition - many of your brethren are really upset about it. The point is that the catechism is considered to be the infallible doctrine of the church. And is two editions are different… then neither of them can be accepted as “infallible”.

 

[Scowler]

I think if a person read through all the Catechism of the Catholic Church in a thoughtful, prayerful, and somewhat systematic manner, they would be very well catechized, provided they understood what they read, and could remember a certain portion of what they learned.

That is fine… except why do you include the word “prayerful”? If someone is familiar with the catechism - WHICH edition!? - then one should be considered “properly catechized”, even if they disagree with what the catechism says. Let’s consider an analogy. If one reads up on the pertinent texts about astrology, then they are well-versed in astrology, even if they consider it a bogus and nonsensical pseudoscience.

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

And you’ve got proof of this ‘acceptance’?

It is the definition of the ordinary magisterium. The pope and the bishops all accepted the literal interpretation of the events described in the Genesis

Except for the fact that I just cited for you an example of a bishop (Augustine) who said exactly the opposite.

Only very recently has the requirement of literal acceptance changed.

Right. Only as recently as the 400s A.D.

And a “generally held” opinion (of the bishops) IS the ordinary magisterium.

No. I hope you recognize that you just unilaterally changed the definition of “ordinary magisterium” there. If you don’t, then please go back to the “Dummies” citation you provided, and find for me where it asserts that a mere “generally held opinion” is what the ordinary magisterium is. (Hint: it ain’t. )

You can’t really be suggesting that the Catechism is ‘useless’ or ‘not authoritative’ simply because it’s not in the format you’d like it to be in… are you?

Not just that. It is because the different editions of the catechism are significantly different. The Baltimore Catechism is different from the last edition - many of your brethren are really upset about it. The point is that the catechism is considered to be the infallible doctrine of the church. And is two editions are different… then neither of them can be accepted as “infallible”.

Different times, different places. Different expressions of the same doctrine.

The Baltimore Catechism isn’t produced by the “ordinary magisterium”. You recognize that, don’t you? It’s a production of the bishops of the United States. But, for the sake of argument, let’s talk specifics. Give me a difference you perceive, and we can talk about it.

 

[JamalChristophr]

You might be right. I"m somewhat undecided on the matter. I would put forth the argument that there is an element of grace in learning the Faith that can facilitate proper learning. But maybe simply reading it is sufficient to catechize someone concerning the Faith. I’m not sure.

I’m referring to the universal catechsim, as it’s also know. It was published during the pontificate of John Paul II. (published 1992)

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

https://www.amazon.com/Catechism-Ca...ll&keywords=catechsiim+of+the+catholic+church

 

[MountCarmel]

Scowler - IMHO, poor catechesis is by and large to do with not holding properly to Church tradition in matters such as the Sacraments, Holy Mass, the partaking of Holy Eucharist {and just who is permitted to partake], changes in design in some modern churches - such as the positioning of the tabernacle/our 'Holy of Holies/Christ’s presence to one side - also the celebrant now facing the congregation, with his back now to the tabernacle/our ‘Holy of Holies’/Christ’s presence. There are also serious issues around not holding to traditional teaching on contraception, unmarried and irregular ‘partnerships’, abortion, etc., etc…

 

[JamalChristophr]

I was very poorly catechized up through confirmation and into my twenties. I didn’t really no anything about the Catholic Faith, and I just about did not get confirmed because I thought, whyyyyy? What’s the point? (I finally decided it wouldn’t do me any harm after being sent to talk to our good ol’ Irish priest. In the process, I made some kind of off-hand comment of Ireland being awfully small for having the status of actually being a country, and I’m fairly certain he was offended at whatever exactly I said. Oh well!)

I did not learn the faith till much later. I gradually became more knowledgeable after having a conversion around the age of 31 or so. Mainly started with EWTN and some wacko nun, commonly known as Mother Angelica.

 

[Blessedwithfive]

As a Catechist I get frustrated with so many people stating that the kids are “poorly catechized”. Often times I teach second grade and then several years later get the same kids in fourth or fifth grades. In second grade I personally have a checklist of all the prayers the children need to know for first communion. They all pass the (memorized) by the end of second grade.

Fast forward to fifth grade, and many can’t even do the sign of the cross. What happened? Nothing. Absolutely Nothing. Many of the parents have decided that CCD is not a priority and Mass attendance is optional at best. Some kids haven’t been back to a Mass since their First Communion. Not even Christmas or Easter (they tell me those are family holidays and they don’t have time for Church)

The Catechists do teach, but without reinforcement at home the one hour lesson just doesn’t stick. In my parish it is almost unheard of to attend Mass in the Summer. Many of the churches here even cancel a few Masses in the summer because so few attend.

I personally believe people have been taught, they just haven’t retained the knowledge.

If you are looking for a good “Catholic Test” the following one was challenging for me and I have been teaching for 20 years and really have a pretty extensive knowledge of the faith.

http://www.catholiciqtest.com

It is a little long but comprehensive. If you take it I would love to know your score…

 

[MonteRCMS]

I know this is politically incorrect, but being able to answer the questions laid out in the Baltimore Catechism is kind of Catholic 101.

There was a lot of criticism, when the Baltimore Catechism was in use … about mindless rote memorization … but how else are you going to know what the Church teaches.

So, in response to the criticism against “rote memorization” reading and studying the Baltimore Catechism was abandoned.

So the young people got NOTHING to replace that.

[My wife taught CCD and the kids didn’t even know the basic prayers, so contrary to the teaching guide, she taught the basic prayers.]

If you visit Amazon books, there are several different Baltimore Catechisms based on the age of the readers.

The Baltimore Catechism has been updated to make it current with the minor changes to the liturgy and responsibilities of the laity.

It is excellent and if you combine it with the Catechism of the Catholic Church, … the thick one … you can get very detailed biblical explanations for everything.

 

[Mintaka]

First, we should all be grateful for whatever good Catholic teaching we got, whether it was by words or deeds.

Second, a lot of us know more than we think we do. I have often been surprised at the little bits of knowledge I have picked up, which turn out to be very important.

However, by the same token, a lot of us know less than we think we do. I have frequently been unpleasantly surprised to find out stuff that my Catholic education left out, and which I suddenly needed to understand.

Third, although our parents, priests/bishops, and schooling were our primary teachers in the Faith, there comes a time when an adult Catholic has to take responsibility for his continuing growth in knowledge. If we are unhappy with what we got, we have to do something about it. There are lots of adult Catholic educational opportunities, and we also have God to help us along. The more we understand, the better we should be able to understand God’s commands.

 

[Debbie_Kono]

I was baptized Catholic. Made my first Communion (I honestly cannot remember going to catechism more than twice) and I knew nothing about the faith. Of course that would not be the Church’s fault because my family didn’t practice the faith. I became a practicing Christian through the teachings of my Protestant “second” husband. We had Bible study in our home for years. There were 10 of us in the core group and 7 of the ten were fallen away Catholics. Only 3 had never been Catholic. Out of the 7 former Catholics 4 had gone to Catholic schools and none of them knew or believed in the Real Presence. I don’t think you can get any more poorly catechized than not knowing about the Real Presence. It’s funny, I just had a conversation yesterday with my best friend, a practicing Protestant, former Catholic. She asked why the Church doesn’t loudly teach this (and other things) at the top of her voice and why did God allow VII? The only answer I had was Satan hates the Church, hates the Truth and wants to destroy.

 

[MonteRCMS]

Debbie_Kono,

EXCELLENT POST.

Your post is exactly the reason why Karl Keating founded Catholic Answers.

He and I used to go back and forth.

Gradually, he added reprinting outstanding books from “yesteryear”.

Seminars.

I think the travel and the debates just wore him out … decade after decade of travel and turning his house into a warehouse.

Many of the speakers and writers in the “Catholic industry” are graduates of Catholic Answers.

Ascension Press … Jeff Cavins, Tim Gray, Sarah Christmyer … The Bible Timeline

Ascension Press … Steve Weidenkopf, Alan Shreck … Epic - A Journey Through Church History

Ascension Press … Edward Sri … Mary - A Biblical Walk with the Blessed Mother

There is so much relatively recent information and learning “stuff” available.

 

[JoshuaIsLord]

https://cruxnow.com/church-in-the-u...cardinal-dinardo-says-u-s-seems-divided-ever/

Well a sub topic of this was addressed.

Cardinal William Levada, former prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, questioned whether or not the preparatory document for the upcoming synod, released by Francis in January, adequately addressed the “ignorance of the faith” among young people.

In response, DiNardo assured him that poor catechesis was a growing problem that the conference hopes is addressed by the synod next October.

 

[JamalChristophr]

Your post has alot of point I agree with. And thankyou and bless you for being a conscientious cathechist! As most of us know here, parents are indeed supposed to be the primary educators of their Children in the faith. In real life?? Blessed be the children who were raised in a devout Catholic family.

I still think my CCD instruction kinda’ …well, I wont’ use the common and crude adjective…let’s just say it was very early 80s and seemed to lack substance, to say the least.

 

[Scowler]

Starting in 1593, Bruno was tried for heresy by the Roman Inquisition on charges of denial of several core Catholic doctrines, including eternal damnation, the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, the virginity of Mary, and transubstantiation. Bruno’s pantheism was also a matter of grave concern, as was his teaching of the transmigration of the soul (reincarnation). The Inquisition found him guilty, and he was burned at the stake in Rome’s Campo de’ Fiori in 1600.

So the Geocentric view was NOT the only one heresy he maintained? That makes me feel soooo good about his burning.

Right. Only as recently as the 400s A.D.

You can’t be serious. The church abandoned the literal creation of Adam from dirt in 400 AD? Even today the church merely allows the acceptance of evolution but does not insist on it. And that is only allowed if you accept the idea of “directed” evolution.

The Baltimore Catechism isn’t produced by the “ordinary magisterium”.

Which version of the catechism is infallible?

 

[JamalChristophr]

@Scowler

Infallible? That could be a technical question that might be complex in answering. I personally do not believe one can disagree with something that is said in the CCC as a Catholic and not be on very shaky ground.

However, Pope John Paul II called the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994),

"a sure norm for teaching the Faith.’

It is the standard and the reference that all other acceptable catechisms would spring from.