Ok, when we die... One Judgment? Or Two?

[GeorgiaPeach]

I think I get what OS is saying: It’s okay to “make” and/or “bow down” to anything so long as it isn’t a graven image.

The Second Commandment

“Thou shalt not make for thee any graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; thou shalt not bow down to them, nor serve them.”

Isn’t a cherub an angel? Don’t angels live in heaven?

It is pretty clear to me that the intent of the Second Commandment is not to worship other gods.

 

[GeorgiaPeach]

Yours is a false statement as written. You have absolutely no way of knowing what is in their hearts. I ask you then, **if you kneel with a Bible in your hands, does it mean you are automatically considered by God to be worshiping the Bible? **

I’ll go out on a limb here based on previous responses and say that OS would say “no” because the Bible, like the cherubim, “would not qualify as a graven image.” After all, you can’t worship something that isn’t a graven image.

 

[Popes_Soldier]

Ok, when we die… One Judgment? Or Two?

THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT

CCC 1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification592 or immediately,593–or immediate and everlasting damnation.594

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.595

592 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 857-858; Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304- 1306; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820.
593 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000-1001; John XXII, Ne super his (1334): DS 990.
594 Cf. Benedict XII, 8enedictus Deus (1336): DS 1002.
595 St. John of the Cross, Dichos 64.

THE LAST JUDGMENT

CCC 1038 The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"621 will precede the Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."622 Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him … Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left… And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."623

CCC 1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God’s justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God’s love is stronger than death.626

621 Acts 24:15.
622 Jn 5:28-29.
623 Mt 25:31, 32, 46.
626 Cf. Song 8:6.

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm#V

 

[MDK]

I’ll go out on a limb here based on previous responses and say that OS would say “no” because the Bible, like the cherubim, “would not qualify as a graven image.” After all, you can’t worship something that isn’t a graven image.

Please don’t go out on a limb for OS, because based on his previous posts, he would likely try to cut the limb between you and the tree trunk, simply because you are Catholic.

Yes, you correctly satirize one of the wayward trickles of errant thought from him. He has his own world view that doesn’t match reality very well. He will misinterpret any and all things possible as long as it results in something that conflicts with Catholicism. In doing so, he automatically puts himself against the truth, as the Catholic Church, the house of the living God, is the pillar and ground of truth.

In truth, one can worship anything at all as a false god, money, a car, your wife or husband, your child, or even a toaster… and obviously should not.

I would say the Cherubim on the Ark of the Old Covenant is indeed a graven image. The common definition of “graven image” is “now used to refer to anything worshiped undeservedly” according to one online dictionary, and in dictionary.com, the first meaning is “an idol.”

I would also say that the serpent on Moses’ staff was a graven image.

Those who have lost sight of the real purpose of reading Scripture and seeking God, will not get the correct meaning here due to their agenda against the Church.

I would think that our true Father in Heaven, His begotten Son, and the Holy Spirit are all pleased that we have statues of Mary and Jesus as reminders and visual aids of their humanity, and reminding us that now they along with the saints are our Heavenly family.

What’s clear is that an image made for one or more to worship is offensive to the true God. What’s clear also, though, is that an image not made to worship is completely acceptable. That’s the idea that the Scriptures teach. It’s the worshiping of images that’s the problem, not in making and having them.

 

[NotWorthy]

THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT

THE LAST JUDGMENT

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm#V

PS, I’m not sure our good friend OS is going to give a flying leap about what’s in the Catechism. To convince him, we need to show him what’s in the Bible.

 

[MDK]

PS, I’m not sure our good friend OS is going to give a flying leap about what’s in the Catechism. To convince him, we need to show him what’s in the Bible.

You can, but why do you play on his false version of what’s valid? It’s like playing on a false field.

Our field includes the fullness of revealed truth.

His is like playing a football game between the 40 yard lines, and trying to score. We use the entire field and are able to score time and again with the true and correct meanings and true doctrine.

Besides, I don’t think he’s about to be fair, either. I’ve seen this person deny and distort the truth presented. He simply rejects most any interpretation as long as it supports the Catholic Church.

 

[NotWorthy]

You can, but why do you play on his false version of what’s valid? It’s like playing on a false field.

Our field includes the fullness of revealed truth.

His is like playing a football game between the 40 yard lines, and trying to score. We use the entire field and are able to score time and again with the true and correct meanings and true doctrine.

Besides, I don’t think he’s about to be fair, either. I’ve seen this person deny and distort the truth presented. He simply rejects most any interpretation as long as it supports the Catholic Church.

Well, since all of our doctrines have Scriptural Basis, I don’t mind playing his game. It’s like fighting someone with one hand behind your back. Luckily, we can do it.

But it looks like OS won’t be around to finish this thread. I know we’re not supposed to discuss it (so this will be my only comment), but I think OS was wanting to get banned.

 

[fbl9]

I think I get what OS is saying: It’s okay to “make” and/or “bow down” to anything so long as it isn’t a graven image.

The Second Commandment

“Thou shalt not make for thee any graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; thou shalt not bow down to them, nor serve them.”

Isn’t a cherub an angel? Don’t angels live in heaven?

It is pretty clear to me that the intent of the Second Commandment is not to worship other gods.

actually the second commandment is “You shall not take the name of your Lord God in vain”…what you quoted is a the protestant 2nd commandment,which Catholics hold has part of the first commandment

 

[colliric]

I think I get what OS is saying: It’s okay to “make” and/or “bow down” to anything so long as it isn’t a graven image.

The Second Commandment

“Thou shalt not make for thee any graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; thou shalt not bow down to them, nor serve them.”

Isn’t a cherub an angel? Don’t angels live in heaven?

It is pretty clear to me that the intent of the Second Commandment is not to worship other gods.

ahhh and here’s the real dousy…

Didn’t God command Moses and company to put Cherubs on the Ark of Covernant?

I believe “likeness of anything that is in heaven above” may refer to serving and making images of the “stars”(which were considered to be in “heaven” at the time) such as using Astrological imagery(like the Gemini symbol for example) or also of making an image of God the Father himself(when he may not look like what we think he looks like… quite often an old fella!)

 

[colliric]

The more you think about it, the more you realise that in the context of those times the “Stars” were considered to be in “Heaven above”. I think it’s a clear commandment against worshipping the stars and making images of them. It is a commandment not to follow “Astrology” and to not worship it.

 

[Popes_Soldier]

Are we talking about graven images now? Yesterday it was “Judgement”. Okay, here’s my little shpeel:

The commandment about “graven images” is one of the most misunderstood scriptures. Consider Exodus 25: 18-19: “And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.” Here, God is commanding that images be made!

So is God contradicting himself? First he says don’t make a graven image, and then he orders graven images to be made? No, he is not contradicting himself. The problem is that folks have misinterpreted the words “graven image.”

According to Strong’s Concordance, the original Hebrew words that were translated into “graven image” referred to idols (Here is the concordance link: cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=06459 ). Of course, we know that an idol is a false god, or something that you place above God. Since the Cheribum are not false Gods, there is no contradiction.

Therefore, statues in Catholic Churches are not a violation of the commandment either. They are not idols, because they are not false Gods. My Church has a statue of an angel, just like God commanded the Israelites to make. We have a statue of Jesus, who is CERTAINLY not a false God. We have statues of saints because they are heroes of the faith, not gods - just like America has statues of its heroes – Washington, Lincoln, etc. – and those are not idols either. Bottom line: The commandments forbid images of false idols or false gods, but there is nothing wrong with beautiful artwork of Jesus, Mary, or angels, whether that artwork be paintings, statues, or whatever.

 

[MDK]

Well, since all of our doctrines have Scriptural Basis, I don’t mind playing his game. It’s like fighting someone with one hand behind your back. Luckily, we can do it.

But it looks like OS won’t be around to finish this thread. I know we’re not supposed to discuss it (so this will be my only comment), but I think OS was wanting to get banned.

Yes, that the Catholic Church can be better defended than any other faith directly from Scriptures is true. As you know, the interpretations are the difference. I still don’t think we need to play his game. If you have someone who thinks the Bible is formally sufficient, and who hates Catholicism, they probably won’t ever be convinced on Scripture alone, as they have their own way of misinterpreting it, no matter that they’ve been shown truth that contradicts their false interpretations. Essentially, they’re out of the ballgame. You’re looking at the same text, but will likely interpret it differently. Some people can be shown the truth and will jump at the chance. Another reason is that some, like OS and other anti-Catholics I’ve seen on this forum, love themselves more than God, in the sense that they love their own truth more than God’s. That’s what we’re sometimes dealing with. We have a beautiful playing field that I enjoy very much.

 

[rinnie]

That’s the real problem. I do understand it much more than most Catholics.

God bless you as well and I wish I could help.

Now Old Scholar thats where you and I have to disagree, If you knew the true Catholic Faith you would not accuse us of.

Post 133

worship of images, you would understand purgatory, and why Mary is the Queen of Heaven.

But you do not understand the faith, if you really didnt you would be defending it not tearing it down. You would Love and Respect the Blessed Mother, and understand how she helps us by praying for us. But you really dont understand the faith, you see it as the man who has sight but cannot see. I dont know if you cant see, or wont see, but you dont see. Thats all I can say, All i can say to you is to pray for Grace from the Holy Spirit to dwell down on you and maybe help you to understand. If this great gift could be given to you, your eyes will become open, and then you may see. Then you could understand our great Love for our Faith and Love for our Blessed Mother. May God lead you to the right path. And I i will pray for the Grace of Our Great Lord to help you understand and to see what I see. And with that Grace and gift who knows, you may be defending our Faith someday too. Just read these posts its happened many of times.

 

[po18guy]

**It would be interesting to see what Scriptures speak of the souls of dead men in heaven??? Don’t use Revelation for this either as it is apocalyptic and futuristic.**The transfiguration shows both Moses and Elijah as alive and speaking with Christ. They underwent particular judgment. Or were they in flames or asleep? Nope. No flames, no snoring.

Revelation: What about that which is already accomplished? Bible Christians who keep pushing Revelation farther into the future will be grossly surprised one of these days.

**

In addition, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is just that—a parable…

 

[NoelFitz]

Rinnie
Some of us here are Catholics. OS is not, he is a Lutheran. It is unfair to expect him to hold Catholic beliefs. In these discussions it seems to me that people are not open to arguments and fresh thinking, but are locked into previous views. This is not really productive, and does not aid learning.

 

[MDK]

Rinnie
Some of us here are Catholics. OS is not, he is a Lutheran. It is unfair to expect him to hold Catholic beliefs. In these discussions it seems to me that people are not open to arguments and fresh thinking, but are locked into previous views. This is not really productive, and does not aid learning.

Noel,
This is of concern in that, is it okay that anyone is even outside the Catholic Church, as Christ established one and not many churches? Is it fair to Catholics and to Jesus that he or anyone else come here and distort the true teachings, and expect not have them refuted by people who know the Truth? There is no true teaching in Lutheranism that isn’t in Catholicism. However, there are many false teachings in Lutheranism that are not in Catholicism (thanks be to God).

I believe that you wouldn’t suggest that we compromise Catholic truths. It’s not unfair to defend the truth against attacks to such. I’m not open to accepting falsehoods. If there are new truths that I don’t know or that can enrich my understanding, I am grateful. If there are untruths plied against the Body of Christ, the Church, then I think we as Catholics need to reject that, and stand for truth.

 

[po18guy]

Now Old Scholar thats where you and I have to disagree, If you knew the true Catholic Faith you would not accuse us of.

As nice a man as he appears to be (but misguided and hard-headed), notice that he declares himself a scholar. I declare myself a stupid sinner. I guess he is smarter than all of us.

 

[po18guy]

Noel,
This is of concern in that, is it okay that anyone is even outside the Catholic Church, as Christ established one and not many churches? Is it fair to Catholics and to Jesus that he or anyone else come here and distort the true teachings, and expect not have them refuted by people who know the Truth? There is no true teaching in Lutheranism that isn’t in Catholicism. However, there are many false teachings in Lutheranism that are not in Catholicism (thanks be to God).

I believe that you wouldn’t suggest that we compromise Catholic truths. It’s not unfair to defend the truth against attacks to such. I’m not open to accepting falsehoods. If there are new truths that I don’t know or that can enrich my understanding, I am grateful. If there are untruths plied against the Body of Christ, the Church, then I think we as Catholics need to reject that, and stand for truth.

Amen! “Fresh thinking” (i.e. “a different gospel”) is from the evil one! Many spirits of antichrist had gone out into the world in the Apostle John’s day. Are they all gone now? Didn’t Christ Himself warn about false prophets? Are they all dead now?

Back to hell with relativism, which places the truth on par with partial truth and outright lies! Once you are blessed enough to have the truth, you lead others to it. You don’t jump into the quicksand for the sake of ecumenism, you pull your brother out of it!

Amen! Alleluia!

 

[po18guy]

Rinnie
Some of us here are Catholics. OS is not, he is a Lutheran. It is unfair to expect him to hold Catholic beliefs. In these discussions it seems to me that people are not open to arguments and fresh thinking, but are locked into previous views. This is not really productive, and does not aid learning.

One Caveat: He has declared himself to be both Protestant and non-Protestant. Compare his profile to his posts. He seems to be a moving target.

 

[IronHammer]

This would not qualify an a ‘graven image either.’ You are correct here. No one could worship that. but you bow to a statue of Mary and Christ on a crucifix. That’s worship.

Bowing to the Mother of God is showing love, respect and honor (just as Christ would), not worship.