Ok, when we die... One Judgment? Or Two?

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rinnie said:
Old Scholar what you dont understand is when we see Jesus suffering on the cross we see that he suffered for our sins. We see that no matter how hard life is, or how we feel at times that we are being treated unfair when we look at Jesus we see that he suffered much worse than us, and he was perfect. When we see Jesus on that cross we see Love. Someone that loved us so much that he died for us. To look at a cross without Jesus on it would be that just a cross. It would be empty, something missing. And it should be offensive to see what they did to Jesus. We should never forget how he suffered. But to take him off the cross, or have a empty cross, No, we must face the truth, thats what happened. Having Jesus on the cross by no means denotes him being risen. To say that it is idolatry is unreal, do you really think that by looking at that cross we worship that cross. No that is not what we do, when we look at that cross it makes our crosses in this world alot easier to except. It reminds me of what his words were, if the world hates you remember it hated me long before. If this was his world he would not be on that cross.
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If it takes that for you to know and remember he died for our sins, then there is something definitely wrong…
 
peary1 said:
Originally posted by Old Scholar
the ‘episcopally organized’ church is not the way taught by Scripture.

Did you ever read ACTS by any chance? :rolleyes:
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What I mean when I say that is an hierarchal episcopate, not an ordinary church; of course it should be organized.
 
Old_Scholar said:
Yes I have and I know where you are going. I have also seen the equivalent in Cherokee, NC, the Black Hills Passion Play, the winter Black Hills Passion Play in Lake Wales Florida and one they have annually in Wauchula Florida. I also have a copy of “the Passion of Christ” but I must admit I have not seen it as of yet. It’s a long movie and I need to ‘work it in.’

A play is different. It is telling a story. When you see this cross with Christ on it every time you go into your church, it is different, I think.
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No, it is not different. It is something that we should never forget, OS, His undying Love for us, even as His mortal Body is dying. This is something that many main-stream churches have swept under the rug, so that they don’t appear “too Catholic” and it’s one of the saddest things I’ve seen.
My personal opinion is that Christ has died on the cross for our sins and I don’t think we should make Him go through that again.
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And so you condemn our practice and judge us, based on your personal opinion?!? God judges what’s in our hearts, OS. Unless you can do the same, you are simply being pompous and arrogant by making such broad-sweeping claims such as this.
 
Old_Scholar said:
Don’t mis-state my claim. The church did not come under the control of the Roman Empire until the 6th century. It started its paganistic rites, etc. after Constantine. Constantine made it the official State Religion but it was still a long time before Rome claimed jurisdiction over all the church. That’s why for the first 500 years, our church was the same one. That’s when it started deviating from the Bible until the reformation attempted to make the necessary reforms.

Martin Luther was simply the catalyist that got the church back to an apostolic church.
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And what “pagan rites” would those be? :confused:
 
Old_Scholar said:
If it takes that for you to know and remember he died for our sins, then there is something definitely wrong…
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I didnt say thats how I know, I said thats how I am reminded every day when I look at him how much he suffered and how much he loves me. What is wrong with that? What would your suggestion be to ignore and forget the pain he suffered. To pretend it didnt happen and it will go away. I still dont understand why having pictures of him around would be offensive to you. Here is a better one for you I have a big cross in my house, when you walk in, I look at him every morning, everyday, He helps me get through the day. Everytime I look at him I say a silent Our Father, and Hail Mary. It reminds me to pray, and read the bible every day also. So now i bet you really think theres something wrong with me.
 
Old_Scholar said:
If it takes that for you to know and remember he died for our sins, then there is something definitely wrong…
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The crucifix serves as a very important and poignant symbol of what He endured for us. If we only had crosses with nothing on them, I would be very afraid that Christians might tend to trivialize or even forget what He did on that cross for us. Our entire lives (both mortal and eternal) depends on what He willingly sufferred for us on that cross.

Besides, exactly how is a crucifix contrary to Sacred Scripture?
 
Old_Scholar said:
Yes I have and I know where you are going. I have also seen the equivalent in Cherokee, NC, the Black Hills Passion Play, the winter Black Hills Passion Play in Lake Wales Florida and one they have annually in Wauchula Florida. I also have a copy of “the Passion of Christ” but I must admit I have not seen it as of yet. It’s a long movie and I need to ‘work it in.’

A play is different. It is telling a story. When you see this cross with Christ on it every time you go into your church, it is different, I think.
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I just wanted to note that when you enter a Catholic church not only will you see a cross with Christ on it, you will also see Stations of the Cross. They too tell a story.
 
Old_Scholar said:
That’s where it started. Did you not read my post? I gave an encyclopedia statement on it. That’s better than anything I have seen you post…

As far as the Jews are concerned, they are damned if they don’t accept Jesus Christ, according to Scripture. They can keep whatever laws they want to but if they continue to reject Christ, then they are doomed.

👍
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We pray that God does not judge you as severely and harshly as you judge others in your life.
 
IronHammer said:
The crucifix serves as a very important and poignant symbol of what He endured for us. If we only had crosses with nothing on them, I would be very afraid that Christians might tend to trivialize or even forget what He did on that cross for us. Our entire lives (both mortal and eternal) depends on what He willingly sufferred for us on that cross.

Besides, exactly how is a crucifix contrary to Sacred Scripture?
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St. John of the Cross always said, ******************“Do not seek Christ without the cross”.

******************We must take up our Crosses daily, and as you well put, we must always remember the suffering He did for our sakes, in order to appreciate the Salvation He offers us!!!
 
Old_Scholar said:
Yes I have and I know where you are going. I have also seen the equivalent in Cherokee, NC, the Black Hills Passion Play, the winter Black Hills Passion Play in Lake Wales Florida and one they have annually in Wauchula Florida. I also have a copy of “the Passion of Christ” but I must admit I have not seen it as of yet. It’s a long movie and I need to ‘work it in.’

A play is different. It is telling a story. When you see this cross with Christ on it every time you go into your church, it is different, I think.
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This again is funny. Acting out Christs’ suffering is alright, but having a gentle reminder on the wall is taboo!!! 😃
 
Don’t forget that Christ Himself said that Lazarus was asleep when he was dead and before Christ resurrected him.
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He was only “asleep” because the Redemption had not yet occurred. The bosom of Abraham was emptied of its inhabitants when Jesus died on the cross and preached to them during His dormition. Unless you still believe that the Bosom of Abraham is still operating, where do you propose the soul goes between death and the final judgment?
 
I understand what you are saying BUT, and this is a big BUT, If purgatory is a final cleansing, and we must have pure souls, why would they need cleansing. And also why when we said the rosary Lead all souls into heaven, especially the ones in most need of your mercy? If when we get to purgatory we are getting into heaven, why would we need Gods mercy.
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God’s mercy to those in Purgatory is about duration and consolation.
 
Old_Scholar said:
A play is different. It is telling a story. When you see this cross with Christ on it every time you go into your church, it is different, I think.

My personal opinion is that Christ has died on the cross for our sins and I don’t think we should make Him go through that again.
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OW! :eek: Logic circuits fried! 😛

Okay, so how come a play isn’t making Him go trhough the crucifixion again, while a simple reminder on a wall is? Maybe we shouldn’t read about the crucifixion in the Bible because that’s putting Jesus through it again! You still haven’t backed up your opinion.
 
A play is different. It is telling a story. When you see this cross with Christ on it every time you go into your church, it is different, I think.
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That’s remarkable. The crucifix doesn’t tell a story?
 
It’s always strange for me when I have to relate history to catholics who don’t seem to know very much about it.

Although art is very important to us mere humans, the church council of 754 deemed it was necessary to sacrifice art to the purity of religion. It was necessary for a council to make a decision against image-worship in the church as it was considered to be a pagan and anti-Christian practice and the abolition of it was necessary to avoid leading Christians into temptation.

Therefore, the Iconclastic Ecumenical Council of 754 held in Constantinople made the following decisions as I have given excerps below:

The holy and Ecumenical synod, which by the grace of God and most pious command of the God-beloved and orthodox Emperors, Constantine and Leo,(2) now assembled in the imperial residence city, in the temple of the holy and inviolate Mother of God and Virgin Mary, surnamed in Blachernae, have decreed as follows:

The only admissible figure of the humanity of Christ, however, is bread and wine in the holy Supper. This and no other form, this and no other type, has he chosen to represent his incarnation. Bread he ordered to be brought, but not a representation of the human form, so that idolatry might not arise. And as the body of Christ is made divine, so also this figure of the body of Christ, the bread, is made divine by the descent of the Holy Spirit; it becomes the divine body of Christ by the mediation of the priest who, separating the oblation from that which is common, sanctifies it.

The evil custom of assigning names to the images does not come down from Christ and the Apostles and the holy Fathers; nor have these left behind then, any prayer by which an image should be hallowed or made anything else than ordinary matter.

Moreover, we can prove our view by Holy Scripture and the Fathers. In the former it is said: “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth;” and: “Thou shall not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath;” on which account God spoke to the Israelites on the Mount, from the midst of the fire, but showed them no image. Further:

The same is taught also by the holy Fathers. Supported by the Holy Scriptures and the Fathers, we declare unanimously, in the name of the Holy Trinity, that there shall be rejected and removed and cursed one of the Christian Church every likeness which is made out of any material and colour whatever by the evil art, or of painters.

Whoever in future dares to make such a thing, or to venerate it, or set it up in a church, or in a private house, or possesses it in secret, shall, if bishop, presbyter, or deacon, be deposed; if monk or layman, be anathematised, and become liable to be tried by the secular laws as an adversary of God and an enemy of the doctrines handed down by the Fathers.

It surely seems the early church didn’t think so much of those images… I guess this is another of those “truths” that was changed back by some past group of men or of some ‘pope.’
 
rinnie said:
I didnt say thats how I know, I said thats how I am reminded every day when I look at him how much he suffered and how much he loves me. What is wrong with that? What would your suggestion be to ignore and forget the pain he suffered. To pretend it didnt happen and it will go away. I still dont understand why having pictures of him around would be offensive to you. Here is a better one for you I have a big cross in my house, when you walk in, I look at him every morning, everyday, He helps me get through the day. Everytime I look at him I say a silent Our Father, and Hail Mary. It reminds me to pray, and read the bible every day also. So now i bet you really think theres something wrong with me.
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As long as you don’t have an image of a human on that cross I have no problems with what you do, except the Hail Mary’s. We are to pray to God only.
 
peary1 said:
We pray that God does not judge you as severely and harshly as you judge others in your life.
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I am not judging them…Scripture does that. There is only one way to God and that’s through Jesus Christ. No other way will get you there. It doesn’t matter if you’re Jewish or whatever. That’s the only way…
 
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