Ok, when we die... One Judgment? Or Two?

[BRB]

What happened? Jesus drank the wine and the gates of Heaven were opened. The Kingdom of Heaven is on Earth now. Even the Lord’s prayer says “Thy Kingdom come.”

That is unless you don’t believe Heaven is the Kingdom of His father.

Except we are also taught by Christ he ‘goes to prepare a better place for us’. And, we are taught ‘his kingdom is not of this world’.

How do we parse these teachings with what you propose ?

 

[BRB]

There are two judgments: particular and general.
The particular judgment is what we experience immediately following death when our souls are revealed. We will either experience heaven, hell, or purgation.
The general judgment is the revelation of our sins to all on the last day, when our souls will be re-united with our bodies and we will exist either in a state of heaven or hell for all eternity.

Thanks … it took 6 pages to get a concise answer to the question.

 

[BRB]

Karl Keating says that Christ, after his death, went to Limbo … the Limbo of the Fathers. This is where the just who died before the Redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened to them (1st Pet. 3:19). This place is neither heaven nor hell.

This proves there is more than just Heaven & Hell. Thus, this also allows the Church to see that Purgatory can also exist.

Purgatory supported by Mat. 12:32 … This verse shows that expiation can occur after death. Paul discusses in 1st Cor 3:15 … where the loss [penalty] cannot refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven cannot be meant, since there is no ‘suffering’ fire there. Also 2 Macc. 12:46 … “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they might be loosed from their sins”
Also Rev. 21:27 “Nothing unclean shall enter heaven” … necessitates purgatorial needs.
Also 1 John 5:17 … “Not all sin is deadly” … purgatory implied to cleanse from unconfessed venial sins.
Also Christ teaches in Lk. 12:59 “I tell you, you will not get out till you have paid the very last penny”.
TRADITION also teaches that earliest Christians participated in ‘praying for the dead’. … those residing in purgatory.

Did O.S.'s mysterious ‘fringe sect’ ever speak out against purgatory tradition of early Church ? NO His church’s roots are within Catholicism … and his Catholic forefathers believed in Pugatory too.

Thus, it looks like when we die our souls go immediately to the Particular Judgement … where we learn if we are heaven or hell bound. If we are fully confessed and fully cleansed …we go to Limbo (heaven’s waiting room). If not … we go to purgatory … or to purgatory’s waiting room. If none of the above apply … we go to straight to hell [Lazarus was there] or to hell’s waiting room.

And @ world’s end, the Final General Judgement occurs … where all from waiting rooms get called up before the JUDGE to make an account of their lives.

 

[Popes_Soldier]

Thanks … it took 6 pages to get a concise answer to the question.

Catholics don’t do concise.

 

[MDK]

Thanks … it took 6 pages to get a concise answer to the question.

It could have been worse… after 500 years, the non-Catholic Christians seem to be getting further from the correct doctrines.

 

[rinnie]

Karl Keating says that Christ, after his death, went to Limbo … the Limbo of the Fathers. This is where the just who died before the Redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened to them (1st Pet. 3:19). This place is neither heaven nor hell.

This proves there is more than just Heaven & Hell. Thus, this also allows the Church to see that Purgatory can also exist.

Purgatory supported by Mat. 12:32 … This verse shows that expiation can occur after death. Paul discusses in 1st Cor 3:15 … where the loss [penalty] cannot refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven cannot be meant, since there is no ‘suffering’ fire there. Also 2 Macc. 12:46 … “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they might be loosed from their sins”
Also Rev. 21:27 “Nothing unclean shall enter heaven” … necessitates purgatorial needs.
Also 1 John 5:17 … “Not all sin is deadly” … purgatory implied to cleanse from unconfessed venial sins.
Also Christ teaches in Lk. 12:59 “I tell you, you will not get out till you have paid the very last penny”.
TRADITION also teaches that earliest Christians participated in ‘praying for the dead’. … those residing in purgatory.

Did O.S.'s mysterious ‘fringe sect’ ever speak out against purgatory tradition of early Church ? NO His church’s roots are within Catholicism … and his Catholic forefathers believed in Pugatory too.

Thus, it looks like when we die our souls go immediately to the Particular Judgement … where we learn if we are heaven or hell bound. If we are fully confessed and fully cleansed …we go to Limbo (heaven’s waiting room). If not … we go to purgatory … or to purgatory’s waiting room. If none of the above apply … we go to straight to hell [Lazarus was there] or to hell’s waiting room.

And @ world’s end, the Final General Judgement occurs … where all from waiting rooms get called up before the JUDGE to make an account of their lives.

This is exactly the way I see it too. The only thing that I am not sure about IS, Say we get to purgatory, Do you think its possible to go either way? Thats the only thing im not sure about? Because if you read about Abraham talking to the rich man he is in purgatory, but i see purgatory as a repenting place. But It never says if the rich man gets to heaven or if he goes to hell. He is in a tempory place, (which dont sound real fun).

 

[MDK]

This is exactly the way I see it too. The only thing that I am not sure about IS, Say we get to purgatory, Do you think its possible to go either way? Thats the only thing im not sure about? Because if you read about Abraham talking to the rich man he is in purgatory, but i see purgatory as a repenting place. But It never says if the rich man gets to heaven or if he goes to hell. He is in a tempory place, (which dont sound real fun).

I believe that the correct teaching is that Purgatory is a good thing. Once we get there, it’s just a matter of working on us a little longer until we’re prepared for Heaven.

 

[Popes_Soldier]

This is exactly the way I see it too. The only thing that I am not sure about IS, Say we get to purgatory, Do you think its possible to go either way? Thats the only thing im not sure about? Because if you read about Abraham talking to the rich man he is in purgatory, but i see purgatory as a repenting place. But It never says if the rich man gets to heaven or if he goes to hell. He is in a tempory place, (which dont sound real fun).

PURGATORY IS ONLY FOR THE SAVED!! Thats an important thing to remember. It is NOT a second chance, and it is NOT a third place. You could say it is the “doormat” in front of heaven’s door where you have to wipe your feet before you go in. (Poor analogy, but you get the point.) The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that “it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill, “Heaven” or “Hell”. We know at once what our final destiny will be. So, why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for “nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, “unclean.” Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.

The Catechism Of The Catholic Church states:

CCC 1030 - “All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.”
CCC 1031 - “The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned… …by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.”

GOOD LINKS:
fisheaters.com/purgatory.html
catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art12.htm#1029

 

[BRB]

This is exactly the way I see it too. The only thing that I am not sure about IS, Say we get to purgatory, Do you think its possible to go either way? Thats the only thing im not sure about? Because if you read about Abraham talking to the rich man he is in purgatory, ).

Well, I think K. Keating (Cath. Answers editor ) has done a great job coming up with this outline for us. Still, its an outline … we can’t know all the details.

But, re: purgatory … the only purpose of it is to clean us up of venial sins …so we can move on into the Kingdom. I’d bet ALL there will be so motivated that NONE will reject the purging needed to move on to next level. No Prodigal sons/daughters ‘generated’ there I’d venture.

I’ve a question on the saints … like Stephen/John/Paul/James … etc. Are they in Limbo now … while only Mary is in Heaven ?

Are we to believe that saints in either Limbo or Heaven can provide us spiritual aid at the current time ? That great cloud of saints cheering us on [per Paul’s teaching I believe] … are they in Limbo or Heaven ??

 

[peary1]

What makes you think Mary* is *Queen of Heaven? There is nothing to substantiate that. She isn’t in heaven for one thing. Maybe at the resurrection she may get a place of honor but she is just like all the rest of the dead—in the grave.

Revelation 12:1

Don’t you pray to Mary? The pope does…We are instructed to pray only to God. To pray to Mary is to make her equal to God and that just isn’t true.

Mary is part of the Communion of Saints. If you do not recite the Creed, then it is obvious that you have a very limited understanding of what that entails.

The pagan ritual of purgatory, was unknown to the true Christian church in the first five centuries. The doctrine of purgatory was not tolerated in the Roman Catholic Church until the days of Gregory in the Sixth century. Check your history. As soon as pope Gregory was known to favor this wild, pagan fiction, every monk’s cell began to tears with visions, apparitions, and miraculous disclosures—all designed to give a divine sanction to the purgatory of the heathen.

**The purification of the soul after death has been part of the Church since the earliest days of its inception, as the earliest Christians were, for the most part, Jews. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the *Mourner’s Kaddish ***for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

Purgatory was finally established at the council of Florence in 1430 and because of the power of the priests, it was sustained by the weight of the priesthood and brought in immeasurable revenues into the Pope’s treasures.

Purgatory as an experience of the soul after death was not established by the Council of Florence. It was clarified at the Council of Florence because of Protestant rejection of it.

It finally led to indulgences, a very dark day for all Catholics. Purgatory is just one of those things made by man and can’t be substantiated by Scripture.

Indulgences have been with the Church since the earliest days and is biblically based.

 

[rinnie]

Pope Soldier, thank you so much, My thinking was exactly like yours except i couldn’t get the last part. Im ashamed of myself, im sure ive read it in the CCC and somehow it woudn’t sink in. And the worst part is i knew this, but somehow i forgot it. I knew you had until the day you die to accept Christ, and if you reject him you are done, but I knew it was a (second chance) which means you still have sins but they are not bad enough to separate you from Christ. Its all comming back now, Again thanks for being so clear. And you are right you cant die in Mortal sin.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Except we are also taught by Christ he ‘goes to prepare a better place for us’. And, we are taught ‘his kingdom is not of this world’.

How do we parse these teachings with what you propose ?

The Kingdom of God is not an earthly Kingdom. It is in the Church, in our Faith, in our Salvation. The better place is when we are freed from sinfulness and are with God when we die.

Matthew tells us the Kingdom of Heaven is like a mustard seed that grows, like leaven. The seed and the leaven are the early Church. We are to grow and expand throughout the whole world. When this has been done, the end of the world will come.

*Matthew 13:38-42
He said in reply, "He who sows good seed is the Son of Man,
the field is the world, the good seed the children of the kingdom. The weeds are the children of the evil one,
39
and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40
Just as weeds are collected and burned (up) with fire, so will it be at the end of the age.
41
The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all who cause others to sin and all evildoers.
42
They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.
43
Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears ought to hear. *

The Kingdom of the Son is distinguished from the Kingdom of the Father.

usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew13.htm

 

[joshuag]

I have a question that relates to this topic. We as Catholics believe that If you die in a state of mortal sin you are sent to Hell forever (no getting out!). Is this correct? From my little knowledge of the Orthodox fiath, they beleive that Hell is not forever until the general judgement. They pray for the dead in case they were sent to Hell.

I was looking at the messages of Fatima which the children were also told to pray and sacrifice themselves for sinners, in order to save them from hell. The children were briefly shown a vision of hell, after which Our Lady told them: “You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace.”

Mary indicates that souls in Hell can be saved. I would like to hear others opinions on this.

 

[fbl9]

I have a question that relates to this topic. We as Catholics believe that If you die in a state of mortal sin you are sent to Hell forever (no getting out!). Is this correct? From my little knowledge of the Orthodox fiath, they beleive that Hell is not forever until the general judgement. They pray for the dead in case they were sent to Hell.

I was looking at the messages of Fatima which the children were also told to pray and sacrifice themselves for sinners, in order to save them from hell. The children were briefly shown a vision of hell, after which Our Lady told them: “You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace.”

Mary indicates that souls in Hell can be saved. I would like to hear others opinions on this.

“true love can save the sinner” since when one dies we enter a state of enternity,which is timeless,so the past present and future are all now,have a chat whith centraljflames(i think that’s the name),he/she is more in tune with your question.

 

[CentralFLJames]

joshuag:

I have a question that relates to this topic. We as Catholics believe that If you die in a state of mortal sin you are sent to Hell forever (no getting out!). Is this correct? From my little knowledge of the Orthodox fiath, they beleive that Hell is not forever until the general judgement. They pray for the dead in case they were sent to Hell.

I was looking at the messages of Fatima which the children were also told to pray and sacrifice themselves for sinners, in order to save them from hell. The children were briefly shown a vision of hell, after which Our Lady told them: “You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace.”

Mary indicates that souls in Hell can be saved. I would like to hear others opinions on this.
“true love can save the sinner” since when one dies we enter a state of eternity,which is timeless,so the past present and future are all now,have a chat whith centraljflames(i think that’s the name),he/she is more in tune with your question.

I don’t think joshuag has Mary’s Fatima quotes correct or its taken out of context. Once one dies they are immediately judged - they go to heaven (often by way of purgatory) or hell. No one in Hell ever gets out again. A soul in Hell is lost for all eternity and will not to our knowledge have any part in the new Creation (new Heaven and new Earth) that happens after the 2nd judgement.

Mary is speaking about saving new souls from hell through devotions to her Immaculate Heart. I practise this devotion and it has assurances of final repentance and sacraments (last rites) before death with her profoundly strong intercessions as Queen Mother of Jesus.

There is another principal that is getting cross wired into this topic though - and that is the ability to pray for mercy for ANYONE already departed NOW to ask God in His omniscience to hear out prayers today as if they were spoken before a loved one died. He does in fact hear our petitions prayed after a person’s death and takes those into consideration in His final judgement as if spoken in the hour of death. That’s the power of prayer and why the Divine Mercy Chaplet is so powerful if said in a state of grace at the side of a loved one’s death bed or even later after they have passed.

James

 

[fbl9]

i stand corrected thanks CFLJ…this is the area Origin errored in me thinks