Okay, here's a doozy

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Valtiel:
Actually it is, the nicotene actually is good for your mentality and heart, and there was another chemical in their that helps with parkinsons. I’ll grant that smoking 3 or 4 packs a day isn’t good for you, but drinking in excessses isn’t any better. Drinking in moderation is shown to have health benefits, smoking in moderation also has health benefits. And I don’t see how smoking is failing to love your self, even if it were bad for you…
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Peace be with you!

Smoking is terrible for you…I don’t see how anyone could even argue this way. I have friends that smoke and can’t run 100 yds without gasping for breath. If smoking is good for you, then why do so many people die of lung cancer, heart disease, and emphasima?

But I would also recommend Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating. Crossing the Tiber and Upon this Rock by Steve Ray are great, too. And if you can get your hands on a copy of Apologia Pro Vita Sua by John Henry Cardinal Newman it would be a help as well.

In Christ,
Rand
 
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Valtiel:
Actually it is, the nicotene actually is good for your mentality and heart, and there was another chemical in their that helps with parkinsons. I’ll grant that smoking 3 or 4 packs a day isn’t good for you, but drinking in excessses isn’t any better. Drinking in moderation is shown to have health benefits, smoking in moderation also has health benefits. And I don’t see how smoking is failing to love your self, even if it were bad for you…
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The Church’s argument for smoking being a sin is that 40 years ago nobody really understood how detrimental to the health it was. There is overwhelming evidence now and it has been proven beyond all doubt that smoking can and does damage a person’s health and even kills. I’m not talking about nicotine (via a cigarette or capsule) being specifically prescribed by a doctor to handle a particular illness a person may have. That’s different. I’m talking about smoking in general just for the sake of it and nobody can now try to justify their general smoking by now saying its good for their health just because in some particular instances nicotine is prescribed by a doctor. That would be like saying its okay for people to generally take heroin just because morphine (which is heroin) is prescribed for people in hospital to handle bad pain.
Instead of folks looking for ways to justify bad habits, they should pray to Jesus for help and strength to stop the habits.
I know. I was a smoker.
 
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thistle:
The Church’s argument for smoking being a sin is that 40 years ago nobody really understood how detrimental to the health it was.
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and it’s still unkown really…
There is overwhelming evidence now and it has been proven beyond all doubt that smoking can and does damage a person’s health and even kills.
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Nope, most the data is either flawd, taken out of context, or plain inconclusive, it hasn’t even proven that smoking too much has caused death…
That’s different. I’m talking about smoking in general just for the sake of it and nobody can now try to justify their general smoking by now saying its good for their health just because in some particular instances nicotine is prescribed by a doctor.
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Wrong their are two more chemicals in cigarette smoking that inhibits parkinsons, and it’s still not particularly bad for you…
That would be like saying its okay for people to generally take heroin just because morphine (which is heroin) is prescribed for people in hospital to handle bad pain.
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For smoking, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Morphine is addictive, ciggarette smoking is not, other wise why are the rates of ex smokers higher then actual smokers; plain logic tells you then the anti smoking pap is crapola. Morphine actually kills were it is incloncusive that cigarette smoking does…
with that logic that on what you think is “correct” data showing smoking is dangerous, that parrellel is nill and rediculous…
Thats also like saying Smoking is an addictive psychotropic drug which is nonsense
Instead of folks looking for ways to justify bad habits, they should pray to Jesus for help and strength to stop the habits.
I know. I was a smoker.
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Instead of thrusting yourself at everywhim to every scientific study and so called “official” documentation you should try and question it. I mean wow political bias and agendas have never entered into that equation, it couldn’t possibly be flawed over bias and manipulation:rolleyes: . Especially when data was shown before the civil rights movement that blacks were inferior and this coming from mainstream science. I mean come on science and official documetaion has homosexuality proven a genetic and healthy variant, but of course this at the same time ignoring data to the contrary and inherent flaws in that reaserch, but I’m sure you as a catholic have no problem believing that homosexuality being inborn and the ilk is crapola. It makes no sense that you would ignore data disproving the anti smoking crapola but accept data disproving the pro homosexual crapola…
 
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Valtiel:
Yeah I can show you the same picture of a liver from some one that drinks… TOO MUCH!!!
You can show me all the damaged lungs you like, but until you can distinguish that from light smokers and heavy smokers, it’s just the ffects of smoking too much, like drinking too much…
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I can’t deny that excessive drinking over years can also damage a person’s health or kill them but the cumulative effects of moderate drinking does not, whereas the cumulative effect of moderate smoking can. That’s why there is not a health warning on a bottle of alcohol but there is on a pack of cigarettes.
You are only 19. Why do you want to deliberately put yourself at risk?
You didn’t comment when I said smoking is a sin in the eyes of the Church. Even a venial sin should be avoided, albeit its not as bad as a mortal sin, although excessive smoking and drinking can be construed as mortal sins.
I will pray for you.
 
You are kidding yourself. I watched both of my aunts die of lung cancer from smoking. They were “casual smokers” as well. It is a horrible way to die, very painful. I can’t believe in this day and age, your are trying to convince yourself that it is not bad for you.

By the way, I smoked for five years and quit 7 months ago after I watched my last aunt suffocate to death from lung cancer and emphysema. My doctor told me that I had early stage emphysema myself…I’m 22. Where do you think that that emphysema came from? Obviously, from smoking. I started out on a couple of cigs a week and eventually smoked more and more. But, even a moderate habit is bad. All that means is it will kill you slower.

You’re probably not going to listen, but I hope you stop. You will be glad you did in the long run, I promise.
 
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Valtiel:
but I’m sure you as a catholic have no problem believing that homosexuality being inborn and the ilk is crapola.
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Of course homosexuality in a theologically and morally relevant sense is not inborn, because the Church is interested in people’s choices, not the nature of their sexual desires. There may be a genetic element to the presence of homosexual desires in certain people. The evidence in favor of this is rather tentative, but I see no theological reason to rule it out. That has nothing to do with the question of whether homosexual relationships should be blessed by the Church. Or do you think that claims that a tendency to alcoholism is genetic are also “crapola”?

Edwin
 
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thistle:
I can’t deny that excessive drinking over years can also damage a person’s health or kill them but the cumulative effects of moderate drinking does not, whereas the cumulative effect of moderate smoking can. That’s why there is not a health warning on a bottle of alcohol but there is on a pack of cigarettes.
You are only 19. Why do you want to deliberately put yourself at risk?
You didn’t comment when I said smoking is a sin in the eyes of the Church. Even a venial sin should be avoided, albeit its not as bad as a mortal sin, although excessive smoking and drinking can be construed as mortal sins.
I will pray for you.
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According to EWTN expert Richard Geraghty smoking is not always a sin.
If smoking is not done excessively, then it is not a sin. For excessive smoking is harmful to health. But it is very hard to moderate one’s smoking activities. So as a matter of fact, many people do committ at least a venial sin in smoking because they do it to excess. The same general rule goes for dancing, card playing, and drinking. All of these done to excess are sinful. This is the general rule. One then has to use common sense to determine what is meant by the term excessive. People and the state of their health differ. What may harm one person may not harm another. So the question is hard to figure out in detail.
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My sister-in-law also didn’t believe smoking harmed her. When the experts said that it caused low birth weights and asthma, she didn’t believe that is why her baby had asthma and was small. She didn’t believe her husband that every cigarette was another nail in her coffin. Sadly she died at 48.

As for your brother, others have answered well. Start praying for him if you haven’t already. Pray for us here and I will pray for you and your brother.
 
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thistle:
I can’t deny that excessive drinking over years can also damage a person’s health or kill them but the cumulative effects of moderate drinking does not, whereas the cumulative effect of moderate smoking can. That’s why there is not a health warning on a bottle of alcohol but there is on a pack of cigarettes.
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In the USA there are health warnings on bottles of alcohol.

cheddar
 
Valtiel,

I am not here to argue with you over smoking. You missed the point of my previous post. You apparently come from a family of strong personalities. You aren’t easily swayed.

It woud take very concrete evidence, with no hint of “agenda” attached to convince you that smoking is unhealthy.

Likewise, it will take very concrete evidence, with no hint of “agenda” attached to convince your brother of the truth of Catholicism.

that is the kind of evidence you must search for. That which does not come from someone with something to gain from convincing him. Something that stands up to rigorous examination. Something compelling enough to make a hard core skeptic take the time to look at it in the first place.

If a person has something that is working for them, and making sense to them, then there is little reason to make the effort to look at something else. There must be a compelling reason, either internal or external to cause the person to make the effort.

Hope that makes sense.

cheddar
 
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thistle:
Valtiel you should really give up smoking. It is definitely not healthy.
By the way smoking is a venial sin against the Fifth Commandment.
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Nonsense. Let’s not mix up the important with the unimportant. A lot of anti-smoking stuff is just hype. Now they say eggs are good for you. A few years back it was eggs are bad for you. Modern health is a substitute religion for secularists who don’t believe in the after-life and are terrified of dying because that’s it don’t you know, the end. Health is an issue that can be discussed elsewhere what is needed here is some firm basis in history. Luther was a scatalogically obsessed paranoid who could never be sure he was forgiven so he invented sola fides to reassure himself. Henry VIII wanted a divorce and through a hissy fit when the Pope wouldn’t give it to him. Calvin thought poverty was a sign the God had withheld his grace. The Protestants in general invented an early church that never existed and persecuted just as much as the Catholic Church. They can’t even agree with each other. Just ask your brother why there are so many Protestant churches if they have the “truth”.

Apologetics are fine for serious discussion but ingrained ignorance and prejudice is self innoculating. Just respond that you will pray for his soul but without any lively hope of success 😃
 
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InnocentIII:
Nonsense. Let’s not mix up the important with the unimportant. A lot of anti-smoking stuff is just hype. Now they say eggs are good for you. A few years back it was eggs are bad for you. Modern health is a substitute religion for secularists who don’t believe in the after-life and are terrified of dying because that’s it don’t you know, the end. Health is an issue that can be discussed elsewhere what is needed here is some firm basis in history. Luther was a scatalogically obsessed paranoid who could never be sure he was forgiven so he invented sola fides to reassure himself. Henry VIII wanted a divorce and through a hissy fit when the Pope wouldn’t give it to him. Calvin thought poverty was a sign the God had withheld his grace. The Protestants in general invented an early church that never existed and persecuted just as much as the Catholic Church. They can’t even agree with each other. Just ask your brother why there are so many Protestant churches if they have the “truth”.

Apologetics are fine for serious discussion but ingrained ignorance and prejudice is self innoculating. Just respond that you will pray for his soul but without any lively hope of success 😃
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What do you believe is nonsense in what I said?
  1. It is absolutely a FACT that smoking is bad for your health.
  2. It is absolutely a FACT that the Church views moderate smoking as a venial sin.
“ingrained ignorance and prejudice is self innoculating”!!?? Not a very Christian attitude. I will pray for you as well.
 
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thistle:
What do you believe is nonsense in what I said?
  1. It is absolutely a FACT that smoking is bad for your health.
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Evidence?? Is smoking any worse for one’s health than excessive eating, excessive drinking, excessive exercise etc etc. I am 52, have been smoking since I was 14, have passed all my medicals (my most recent this year), and am in better health than all of my non-smoking and younger siblings. My mother and father smoked and had four healthy children none of whom had asthma or any lung problems. I probably couldn’t do a 100 yard dash but then I don’t want to. I match my physical exercise to my lifestyle. If you can PROVE beyond all reasonable doubt that smoking is singnificantly any more dangerous for health than the myriad of other activities that we do then do so, but don’t just repeat mantras pushed by the anti-smoking lobby.
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thistle:
  1. It is absolutely a FACT that the Church views moderate smoking as a venial sin.
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Again evidence. Can you quote me the exact canon or ruling of the Church that states that smoking is a venial sin? or which even mentions smoking specifically?

thistle said:
“ingrained ignorance and prejudice is self innoculating”!!?? Not a very Christian attitude. I will pray for you as well.
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This was not in the least direct at you or the smoking issue if you had read my post discerningly. It was directed to Valtiel in relation to his argument with his brother.
 
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Valtiel:
Well I got to arguing with my brother again, and this time I was completely whooped, uttely overwhelmed and defeated…

First off we get at it over smoking and how my parents are disaproving of it, I’m 19 years old and smoking really isn’t that bad it infact has healt benefits (I’ve already argued this on the forums), but then he goes on to say that does not matter and that the Bible specificaly says to obey thy mother and thy father, but I say no it says honor thy mother and thy father. Well he then says “thats great you’re manipulating the bible, catholics always manuplate the bible”. I then told him how could that be, the catholic church put your bible together. He then went to say that the catholic church invented paying for sins, and paying for a realitive to get out of purgatory, which of course so lacking in apologetics I could not even begin to answer. He went on about early protestants, I told him that there were no early protestants, he blurted out “why do you think christians started leaving europe for america” I told him that was the 1400’s before that there were no protestants. He said “they were escaping the corruption of the church”. He then goes on to say that the church prevented people from reading the bible so that they couldn’t realize the bible was all that there was, that they could only read it in latin and that they wanted to keep everyone privy to what the bible really said, infact that they put to death anyone who tried to translate it. He said look in any history book, “you’ll see that they say this and much more about the catholic corruption”. I said that has to be only a few churches not the church as a whole, but he said it was happening all over europe. He goes on to how corrupt the church was in killing people, even cited Joan of arc in that they killed one of their own catholics and then made her a saint. He said the bible is all that you need, if you read it you’ll get all that you need to understand, but here is at least where things started to turn. I confronted him about the dilema of such a notion as sola scriptura, in which I got him on some circular reasoning and won that argument. Until his friend’s mom came in the room and completely overwhelemed me, so I cannot even begin to summerize all the points she made. I completely flopped, I should gone back to the begings over and over and explained more about the protestant reformation and their utter catholic beliefs before they went into current day protestantism, the church formed the bible so you have no claim to say we are making things up, and so forth but with some of the things he stumped me on I was just in a rut. But I’m seriously starting to again to sway in my faith, I mean in actuality the catholic church was so corrupt it seemed back them I cannot begin to summerize it all, I’m wondering of just reverting to hoodoo…
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PLEASE STOP SMOKING IT WILL KILL YOU,I’m setting here talking to you with out my leges,Thanks to smoking.
Belive me it is not worth it,Ask God to help you,You can do it its hard but with God it will be done,Not trying to be a boss just telling you the truth. Thanks
 
My point is that Valtiel was asking for help regarding his FAITH and dealing with attacks on it by his brother and others. The smoking thing was a not the point of the post yet it seems to have been taken up by a number of posters here as though saving Valtiel’s health was more important than helping him with his faith. Nowhere did Valtiel ask for help or advice on his smoking, although it has been gratuitously given. He is 19, therefore an adult and can choose for himself without having to be treated as a child. He claims to have done research and has linked to several posts by among others NON-SMOKERS who question the statistics used to support the anti-smoking crusade. therefore he is not just some gullible child sucked into smoking. So back off this issue. It just isn’t important in the context of this post or forum.

What is important is to listen to his concerns. He asked for help with apologetics. My post was meant to get us back to his request and need. It never ceases to amaze me how ready we are to tell someone how to run their life. Valtiel is a brother who has asked for help in the faith and I think in charity that and only that is what we should be giving him.
 
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InnocentIII:
Evidence?? Is smoking any worse for one’s health than excessive eating, excessive drinking, excessive exercise etc etc. I am 52, have been smoking since I was 14, have passed all my medicals (my most recent this year), and am in better health than all of my non-smoking and younger siblings. My mother and father smoked and had four healthy children none of whom had asthma or any lung problems. I probably couldn’t do a 100 yard dash but then I don’t want to. I match my physical exercise to my lifestyle. If you can PROVE beyond all reasonable doubt that smoking is singnificantly any more dangerous for health than the myriad of other activities that we do then do so, but don’t just repeat mantras pushed by the anti-smoking lobby.

Again evidence. Can you quote me the exact canon or ruling of the Church that states that smoking is a venial sin? or which even mentions smoking specifically?

This was not in the least direct at you or the smoking issue if you had read my post discerningly. It was directed to Valtiel in relation to his argument with his brother.
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If you want a good check list against the 10 Commandments on what the Church considers mortal and venial sins go to the section on Catholic Online website:

www.catholic.org/frz/examen/mortal_main.htm

The first part is on mortal sins and if you scroll to the end you can then click on Venial Sins.

As for smoking, Medical Science has proved beyond all doubt that smoking is bad for your health, even if you have managed to so far escape any ill effects. I don’t think you will find a scientist or doctor in the world (apart from those paid by tobacco companies) that will say otherwise.

As for my remarks about your unChristian attitude I apologise and hope you will forgive me.
 
Given my previous post I will not continue this discussion any further unless someone wishes to start a new posting specifically related to smoking. I will however respond briefly as you were considerate enough to respond to me.
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thistle:
If you want a good check list against the 10 Commandments on what the Church considers mortal and venial sins go to the section on Catholic Online website:

www.catholic.org/frz/examen/mortal_main.htm

The first part is on mortal sins and if you scroll to the end you can then click on Venial Sins.
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This is not an official Church document. It is merely a list put together by one priest who himself says that he has not distinguished between imperfections which are not sins and venial sins because it is frequently difficult to do so.
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thistle:
As for smoking, Medical Science has proved beyond all doubt that smoking is bad for your health, even if you have managed to so far escape any ill effects. I don’t think you will find a scientist or doctor in the world (apart from those paid by tobacco companies) that will say otherwise.
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Medical science has proved no such thing. The statistics are inconclusive and much of the evidence is driven by a political agenda. Actually I know at least two doctors who will tell you that the anti-smoking crusade is over -hyped. that does not prove I am right but neither does your broad statement (without any backing) that I wouldn’t find a doctor or scienist that would say otherwise.
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thistle:
As for my remarks about your unChristian attitude I apologise and hope you will forgive me.
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🙂 Accepted and done.
 
Of course the anti-smoking stuff is overdone.

These stupid commercials they have now that all say “truth” at the end are a prime example.

That’s part of the problem. One of the reasons so many are opposed to religion is because of some of the evangelicals that really just overdo it with their evangelization. I know it’s Christ, but there’s a way you do it and there’s a way you don’t. They are so in your face to people that they just alienate a bunch of folks and make them be anti-religion.

Similarly, the overactive anti-smoking people are turning folks against them with some of the absolutely ridiculous, and I will admit often deliberately misleading things they do.

But the fact is that God is real, despite what the evangelicals do, and smoking is bad for you, despite how ridiculous the anti-smoking people can be.
 
This is not an official Church document. It is merely a list put together by one priest who himself says that he has not distinguished between imperfections which are not sins and venial sins because it is frequently difficult to do so.

If you happen to watch EWTN you may have heard of Father Corapi. In two different talks he gave on EWTN he stated smoking is a sin. As he is going out to millions on TV I think some correction would have been given if that was not the Church’s view.

Also I have a book “How to make a Good Confession”, “A Pocket Guide to Reconcilliation with God”. The Imprimatur is Thomas A. McGlaughlin, Bishop of Paterson. Imprimatur means this book is approved by the Church and is error free. It also states smoking is a sin.
 
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