Okay, here's a doozy

[Wolseley]

Then the Posters of the Board brought to Jesus a man who had been smoking cigarettes, and made him stand in the middle.

And they said to Him, “Rabbi, this man was caught in the very act of smoking. Now, the American Cancer Society, the American Medical Association, and the American Lung Association commands us to condemn such a person, for this is a sin, and contrary to his good health. But what do you say, Rabbi?”

Jesus bent down and began to write on the ground with His finger. But when they continued asking Him, He straightened up and said to them, “Let the one among you who is without sin be the first one to condemn him.”

 

[sara888]

**Father Corapi. In two different talks he gave on EWTN he stated smoking is a sin.

He said it was a MORTALSIN>

I love Father Corapi, one of my favorte priest.**

 

[thistle]

Wolseley:

Then the Posters of the Board brought to Jesus a man who had been smoking cigarettes, and made him stand in the middle.

And they said to Him, “Rabbi, this man was caught in the very act of smoking. Now, the American Cancer Society, the American Medical Association, and the American Lung Association commands us to condemn such a person, for this is a sin, and contrary to his good health. But what do you say, Rabbi?”

Jesus bent down and began to write on the ground with His finger. But when they continued asking Him, He straightened up and said to them, “Let the one among you who is without sin be the first one to condemn him.”

We were not discussing who was sinning so nobody was condemning anyone. The issue was whether the Church views smoking as a sin or not.

 

[Valtiel]

Lazerlike42:

I checked out those websites. There’s one big problem with all of them.

They all focus on outward statistics. Remember, you can make any statistic say anything you want, and they do just that. When I say outward statistics, I mean that they all focus on the percentage distinct from the smoker that are affected in a particular way.

I could say the same thing about Christ. I could say that a large percentage of non-Christians that are involved with Christians are affected very negatively. They are judged, and proselithyzed (sp) and held to double standards because they are told not to do things that the Christians do. The statistics would seem to say that Chistianity is a very bad thing!

First off, by that “argument”, you throw out all statistical analysis, thus negating any possibility for arguing against smoking, based on such analyses, as well, so it would then come down to a matter of “yes it is”, “no it isn’t”, back and forth bickering with no possibility of factual resolution. Secondly, your Christian argument is based on implicitly stated anecdotal evidence alone (i.e. the Christians he knows tend to be, or are all, *******s), not actual statistics, so your asserted priori knowledge of what a statistical analysis would show in the matter is based on pure conjecture, not fact. you apply a hasty generalization, to your implicit anecdotal evidence, to arrive at your conjectural conclusion. Thirdly, your equating your conjecture with controlled and falsifiable scientific studies. your only support of this is by argumentum ad populum, implying that we should reject statistical analysis because of negative consequences - namely, that if we were to actually carry out such falsifiable studies as are used to study smoking, the facts regarding the effects of Christianity would be unpleasant, and there are a lot of Christians who would thus be negatively impacted (thereby, an implicit ad populum).

 

[Valtiel]

Celia:

You are kidding yourself. I watched both of my aunts die of lung cancer from smoking. They were “casual smokers” as well.

I have known casual smokers to live into their 80’s as well as heavy smokers into their 60’s without ill effect. Also correlation does not mean causation…

It is a horrible way to die, very painful. I can’t believe in this day and age, your are trying to convince yourself that it is not bad for you.

This day and age is no differen’t from yester years day and age, the antismoking crowd has gotten way too much influence thus your current opinion. I’m sorry the evidence has been weighed and I have been against this anti smoking hysteria back and forth swaying from side to side, examing over and over this story to fact, and sorry but fact wins out. Statisticly speaking smoking in japan is a greater epidemic but lung cancer and so called smoking related deaths are extremely low. I mean I have given you the data, you can read it for yourself. smoking is not that bad for you…

By the way, I smoked for five years and quit 7 months ago after I watched my last aunt suffocate to death from lung cancer and emphysema.

You didn’t get it from smoking thats for sure, emphysema is genetic, thats the ignorance you get from the anti smoking nonsense. It’s an actual condition where the bodies own enzymes, neutrophil elastase, eat your lungs up…

My doctor told me that I had early stage emphysema myself…I’m 22. Where do you think that that emphysema came from? Obviously, from smoking.

No how about try that you just hit the unlucky genetic jackpot…

I started out on a couple of cigs a week and eventually smoked more and more. But, even a moderate habit is bad. All that means is it will kill you slower.

I’ve not known anyone who started out light and didn’t stay light. It’s also not logical that light smoking is unhealthy, when there’s safe level of drinking, there are even safe levels of just about everytype of poison and a good portion of those poisons beneficial in small doses. I find it hard to belie any of this…

You’re probably not going to listen, but I hope you stop. You will be glad you did in the long run, I promise.

To educated to listen to such nonsense, but thank you for your time…

 

[Valtiel]

Ann Cheryl:

According to EWTN expert Richard Geraghty smoking is not always a sin.

My sister-in-law also didn’t believe smoking harmed her. When the experts said that it caused low birth weights and asthma, she didn’t believe that is why her baby had asthma and was small. She didn’t believe her husband that every cigarette was another nail in her coffin. Sadly she died at 48.

As for your brother, others have answered well. Start praying for him if you haven’t already. Pray for us here and I will pray for you and your brother.

Well drinking while preganat is just as dangerous but still is safe in moderation and even beneficial to the adult, that does not prove your point…

And the so called not being able to smoke mederalty crapola has been adressed in the links I provided…

 

[Valtiel]

Lazerlike42:

Of course the anti-smoking stuff is overdone.

These stupid commercials they have now that all say “truth” at the end are a prime example.

That’s part of the problem. One of the reasons so many are opposed to religion is because of some of the evangelicals that really just overdo it with their evangelization. I know it’s Christ, but there’s a way you do it and there’s a way you don’t. They are so in your face to people that they just alienate a bunch of folks and make them be anti-religion.

Similarly, the overactive anti-smoking people are turning folks against them with some of the absolutely ridiculous, and I will admit often deliberately misleading things they do.

But the fact is that God is real, despite what the evangelicals do, and smoking is bad for you, despite how ridiculous the anti-smoking people can be.

That just ignorant, you obviously still cling to the anti smoking pap, even though you say it’s hype and then say the pro smoking is just completley wrong anyway. No several studies in fermingham show that smoking under 10 cigarettes a day does have health benefits, and the pro smoking sites I’ve provided compeltely discredite the hype of the so called “smoking is an inheent death trap” crapola. How comprenesive and lucid does it have to be to convince you…

 

[Valtiel]

**Father Corapi. In two different talks he gave on EWTN he stated smoking is a sin. **

He said it was a MORTALSIN>

I love Father Corapi, one of my favorte priest.

Based on what evidence, how can it be a mortal sin when it’s not particularly bad for you???

 

[Valtiel]

thistle:

I can’t deny that excessive drinking over years can also damage a person’s health or kill them but the cumulative effects of moderate drinking does not, whereas the cumulative effect of moderate smoking can.

Now how is that for logic, thats just nonsensical, like I said just about every poison to man has safe levels even at continued exposure, and a lot of those poisons are beneficial at small doeses.

That’s why there is not a health warning on a bottle of alcohol but there is on a pack of cigarettes.

There is in case you haven’t been paying attention, the warning label says pregnant women should not drink, that drinking imapres your abilities, and that drinking may cause health problems. Now thats just a precuationary limit. The labels on smokes should be no more no less, but the anti smoking pap pushes them to the utmost highest standards, which is crapola…

You are only 19. Why do you want to deliberately put yourself at risk?

I’m not putting my self at any risk, why are you clinging to false hype???

You didn’t comment when I said smoking is a sin in the eyes of the Church.

Based on false evidence, and actually the church doesn’t have an official position.

Even a venial sin should be avoided, albeit its not as bad as a mortal sin, although excessive smoking and drinking can be construed as mortal sins.
I will pray for you.

As I you…

 

[scylla]

Why not start a thread on smoking?

Would you like a some more answers on what you discussed with your brother?

God Bless
Scylla

 

[paramedicgirl]

Valtiel:

You didn’t get it from smoking thats for sure, emphysema is genetic, thats the ignorance you get from the anti smoking nonsense. It’s an actual condition where the bodies own enzymes, neutrophil elastase, eat your lungs up…

No how about try that you just hit the unlucky genetic jackpot…

I’m unaware if you have any medical training, or are qualified to be handing out medical advice. Emphysema is a form of COPD (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease). It’s main cause is long-term cigarette smoking. Other risk factors for COPD are passive smoking (exposure of non-smokers to cigarette smoke from others), male gender, and working in a polluted environment. Rarely, an enzyme deficiency called alpha-1 anti-trypsin deficiency can cause emphysema in non-smokers.
In empysema, there are destructive changes in the lungs, with exhalation incompletely deflating the lungs, making the lungs unable to completely inflate with 02.
By the way, there is no reason to suggest that medical training is skewed or funded by the anti-smoking groups.

I’ve not known anyone who started out light and didn’t stay light. It’s also not logical that light smoking is unhealthy, when there’s safe level of drinking, there are even safe levels of just about everytype of poison and a good portion of those poisons beneficial in small doses. I find it hard to belie any of this…

To educated to listen to such nonsense, but thank you for your time…

I think you have made your point that you are a LIGHT smoker, so why do you go overboard defending the tobacco companies? Why not get back to your real issue of how to defend your Catholic faith?

 

[InnocentIII]

paramedicgirl:

I think you have made your point that you are a LIGHT smoker, so why do you go overboard defending the tobacco companies? Why not get back to your real issue of how to defend your Catholic faith?

Becuse 90% of the responses to his request have beeen more concerned with his health than with his need for help in the faith.

 

[paramedicgirl]

InnocentIII:

Becuse 90% of the responses to his request have beeen more concerned with his health than with his need for help in the faith.

Amen!

 

[Valtiel]

paramedicgirl:

I’m unaware if you have any medical training, or are qualified to be handing out medical advice.?quote] I know enough…

Emphysema is a form of COPD (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease).

COPD, which was introduced in 1982 is a combination of emphysima and bronchitus not a form of and that does not adress that it emphysima itself is still genetic…

It’s main cause is long-term cigarette smoking.

That is not conclusive…

Other risk factors for COPD are passive smoking (exposure of non-smokers to cigarette smoke from others),

That has been utterly disproven, the EPA Reports on SHS have been thrown out by the supreme court iself because of flaws in the data and the EPA’s act of increasing it’s margin of error in it so they could round the results to what they wanted, so there is no sufficant data withstanding to show any ill effects of SHS…

male gender, and working in a polluted environment. Rarely, an enzyme deficiency called alpha-1 anti-trypsin deficiency can cause emphysema in non-smokers.

Thats one aspect of the genetic empysima do not forget;
neutrophil elastase. Researchers suspect that this enzyme, secreted by white blood cells called neutrophils, helps clean up wounds, but in the lungs of certain individuals it wreaks havoc.
And let me tell you the research linking emphysima and smoking is weak at best…

In empysema, there are destructive changes in the lungs, with exhalation incompletely deflating the lungs, making the lungs unable to completely inflate with 02.

Which can be caused by said genetic factors…

By the way, there is no reason to suggest that medical training is skewed or funded by the anti-smoking groups.

Lol where do you thin kthey get their statistics and procedures and ilk, from such anti smoking biased research. And you have to realize they do have the strain of being politicly correct…

I think you have made your point that you are a LIGHT smoker, so why do you go overboard defending the tobacco companies?

I’m not defending tobacco companies, I’m showing the crapola of the anti smoking authority, which is nothing more then a silly political agenda…

Why not get back to your real issue of how to defend your Catholic faith?

if thats okay with everyone else that is…

 

[mlchance]

**Father Corapi. In two different talks he gave on EWTN he stated smoking is a sin. **

He said it was a MORTALSIN**.**

With all due respect to Father Corapi, he is not the Magesterium, and his opinion, although worth listening to, is not binding on conscience.

That said, no one with any sense can honestly think inhaling carbon monoxide and tar is beneficial to health. But, then again, the same thing can be said about breathing the air in most major U.S. cities.

Frequently, folks have commented that scientists have definitively proven that “smoke is harmful to your health.” This is not precisely true. Scientists have proven no such thing regarding my health because they have no studied the effects of cigarettes on me.

Many people smoke moderately for their entire lives with only minimal health effects. Others smoke the exact same amount. and die from diseases caused by their smoking. The warnings about the effects of smoking are generalizations based on research. Those warnings are not universal predictions.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Valtiel:

COPD, which was introduced in 1982 is a combination of emphysima and bronchitus not a form of and that does not adress that it emphysima itself is still genetic…

That is not conclusive…

Tell the medical community that COPD did not exist before 1982. And yes, emphysema is a form of COPD, since COPD comprises 2 distinct clinical entities: chronic bronchitis and emphysema.

BTW, have you thought of starting a new thread to get people back on track?? To help you with your real issue? This is just a sideshow.

 

[Valtiel]

paramedicgirl:

Tell the medical community that COPD did not exist before 1982. And yes, emphysema is a form of COPD, since COPD comprises 2 distinct clinical entities: chronic bronchitis and emphysema.

Some time subsequent to 1973, a genetic cause of emphysema was discovered. In an article in the latest on-line edition of Grolier’s Encyclopedia, Howard Buechner, M.D., explains that a significant number of the people with the disease lack a gene that controls the liver’s production of a protein called alpha-1 antitrypsin (AAT). This protein controls or degrades an enzyme called neutrophilelastase, produced by the white blood cells. When the enzyme is left unchecked, it destroys alveolar tissue.

In the Merck Manual, 14th Edition (1982), we are introduced to a new disease, Chronic Onstructive Pulmonary Disease, or COPD, and, at page 629, we are shown a diagram, showing that the disease is combination of emphysema and bronchitis, and that some patients may have one disease and some the other, but many will have both.
By 1992, it becomes still more politically imperative to blame smoking for COPD and emphysema (two seperate illneses). In the 16th Edition of the Manual (1992), it is explained that, yes, emphysema is caused by destruction of lung tissue, caused by an unchecked enzyme. We are told, however, that smoking lowers the body’s defenses to the enzyme. No evidence or authority is cited for that proposition.

BTW, have you thought of starting a new thread to get people back on track?? To help you with your real issue? This is just a sideshow.

I already have, let me bring it back up…

 

[rjs1]

Valtiel,
If you honestly believe that sucking thousands of toxic chemicals into your lungs to be distributed to every organ and cell in your body is NOT health damaging, then I am afraid that you will believe anything, and that includes all the distorted information your brother is giving you about the Catholic Church.

 

[Fox]

“First off we get at it over smoking and how my parents are disaproving of it, I’m 19 years old and smoking really isn’t that bad it infact has healt benefits (I’ve already argued this on the forums), but then he goes on to say that does not matter and that the Bible specificaly says to obey thy mother and thy father, but I say no it says honor thy mother and thy father.”

You go dig up my grandfather and tell him that smoking has health benefits whom died of cardio pulmonary disease and emphysema from smoking from when he was 14 till 40. Listen to your parents and quit lying to yourself. You aren’t honouring your mother and father by going against their wishs, you are only 19. Your ignorance will be your downfall if you don’t listen to people that know better.

 

[InnocentIII]

Fox:

You go dig up my grandfather and tell him that smoking has health benefits whom died of cardio pulmonary disease and emphysema from smoking from when he was 14 till 40. Listen to your parents and quit lying to yourself. You aren’t honouring your mother and father by going against their wishs, you are only 19. Your ignorance will be your downfall if you don’t listen to people that know better.

Oh for heavean’s sake GET OVER his smoking. What are we - a medical seminar. The greatest cause of death is living because it has been conclusively proven that 100% of people who died had been living beforehand. In other words this is not the issue. I am tired of the quasi-religious, holier than thou put-downs because Valtiel says he’s a smoker. It is not a sin, mortal or otherwise whatever some priests might say personally. It has not been defined as a sin by the Church. And as for honouring father and mother, that does not mean we must obey them in all things once we reach the age of adulthood ourselves. We are entitled to make our own choices which may be just as right or wrong as our parents’.

I appreciate the sense of concern among those of you who believe that smoking is bad for Valtiel’s health but you come across as sanctimonious, self-righteous bigots lecturing him for his stupidity, ignorance and lack of discernment. Anecdotes about dying relatives are touching but not conclusive, I can provide counter anecdotes of people who smoked and outlived those who didn’t, of people who got cancer without having tasted nicotine once in their lives - that isn’t conclusive either.

The point is this is neither a religious issue, nor was it the issue on which Valtiel asked for help, so let’s focus on his spiritual health not his physical health especially as he stated in his first post that he “was seriously starting to sway in his faith”. Frankly if Valtiel abondoned his faith because most responses seemed less concerned with his immortal soul than his temporal body I for one would understand him and mourn for him. When a man comes to you for help for a tumor you don’t discuss his wart.

Get real people and get a grip on what is truly important here or we will lose a soul and not just a body.