Okay Muslims, I would like a straight answer!

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Muslim:
well…now… the question I have for you is… if the Bible is not historical and you admit it has some fallacies…and i totally agree if infact its not supposed to be historical…how doyou know Isa (pbuh) was the Son of God? an objective answer would help 🙂
I never said it had fallacies. For a person to be guilty of “fallacy” (the term doesn’t apply to written documents, those would be referred to as “inerrant”… there’s a difference), they would have to first assert that something was correct, and then be proven wrong on that same point. My point is that nobody ever said that the book of Genesis was actually asserting that a worldwide flood actually took place, so it would not make any sense to accuse that book of being in error on a claim that had never even been made.

Your question about Jesus is irrelevant in this case because like I said, you have to take every individual book in it’s own context. Genesis doesn’t speak of Jesus. Stick to one point at a time.
 
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freedomm:
Because:

He [Prophet Muhammed] does not speak of his own desire; it is but a Revelation which is sent down to him. One mighty in power has taught him, who is endowed with great wisdom. [Surah AnNajm 53:3-5]
- - - - - -

Whose mouth were these words initially heard from?
 
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exoflare:
Whose mouth were these words initially heard from?
From Angel Gabriel (Jibra’eel) (PBUH) who Revealed these Words of Allah to Prophet Muhammed (PBUH).
 
Dear exoflare:

The following site may be helpfull to understand the:

Miracles of the Qur’an
harunyahya.com/c_miracles_quran.php

Some of the topics covered in the above sites include:

**PART ONE: THE SCIENTIFIC MIRACLES OF THE QUR’AN **

THE COMING OF THE UNIVERSE INTO EXISTENCE
THE EXPANSION OF THE UNIVERSE
THE END OF THE UNIVERSE AND THE BIG CRUNCH
CREATION FROM HOT SMOKE
THE SPLITTING ASUNDER OF “THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH”
THE CREATION OF WHAT LIES BETWEEN THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH
THE PERFECT EQUILIBRIUM IN THE UNIVERSE
THE FINE TUNING IN THE UNIVERSE
THE STRUCTURAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE SUN, THE MOON AND THE STARS
ORBITS AND THE ROTATING UNIVERSE
THE SUN’S TRAJECTORY
THE MOON’S ORBIT
CALCULATING THE LUNAR YEAR
THE FORCE OF GRAVITY AND ORBITAL MOVEMENTS
THE ROUNDNESS OF THE EARTH
THE EARTH’S DIRECTION OF ROTATION
THE EARTH’S GEOID SHAPE
THE DIAMETERS OF THE EARTH AND SPACE
THE LAYERS OF THE ATMOSPHERE
THE PROTECTED ROOF
THE SKY MADE A DOME
THE RETURNING SKY
THE LAYERS OF THE EARTH
THE EARTH DISGORGES ITS CHARGES
THE FUNCTION OF MOUNTAINS
THE MOVEMENT OF MOUNTAINS
DIFFERENT POINTS IN THE RISING AND SETTING OF THE SUN
LAND LOSS AT THE EXTREMITIES
THE SPLITTING EARTH
THE MIRACLE OF IRON
THE FORMATION OF PETROL
THE RELATIVITY OF TIME
CREATION IN SIX DAYS
THE TRUTH OF DESTINY
DUALITY IN CREATION
SUB-ATOMIC PARTICLES
BLACK HOLES
PULSARS: PULSATING STARS
THE STAR SIRIUS
LIGHT AND DARK
COMBUSTION WITHOUT FIRE
THE WEIGHT OF CLOUDS
THE PROPORTION OF RAIN
THE FORMATION OF RAIN
RAINS WHICH BRING A DEAD LAND BACK TO LIFE
THE FORMATION OF HAIL, THUNDER AND LIGHTNING
THE FECUNDATING WINDS
THE STAGES OF WIND FORMATION
HOW THE PROCESS OF PHOTOSYNTHESIS BEGINS IN THE MORNING
THE SEAS NOT MINGLING WITH ONE ANOTHER
DARKNESS IN THE SEAS AND INTERNAL WAVES
THE REGION THAT CONTROLS OUR MOVEMENTS
HEARTS FIND PEACE IN THE REMEMBRANCE OF ALLAH
FORGIVENESS ACCORDING TO THE MORALS OF ISLAM AND ITS BENEFITS ON HEALTH
HOW PRAYER ACCELERATES THE TREATMENT OF THE SICK
STRESS AND DEPRESSION: THE RESULTS OF NOT ABIDING BY THE RELIGION
THE BIRTH OF A HUMAN BEING
THE CREATION OF HUMAN BEINGS FROM WATER
CREATION FROM CLAY
THE PROGRAMMING IN GENES
THE MENSTRUAL PERIOD
PREGNANCY AND BIRTH
THE SEQUENCE IN DEVELOPMENT OF HUMAN ORGANS
THE FORMATION OF MILK
MIRACULOUS MIXTURE: MOTHER’S MILK
THE IDENTITY IN THE FINGERPRINT
THE FEMALE HONEY BEE
THE MIRACLE OF HONEY
THE DATE AND ITS USES AS DESCRIBED IN THE QUR’AN
THE FIG: A FRUIT WHOSE PERFECTION HAS ONLY RECENTLY BEEN REVEALED
FISH: A VALUABLE SOURCE OF NUTRITION
PORK AND ITS HARMFUL EFFECTS ON HEALTH
THE OLIVE: A HEALTH-GIVING PLANT
CORONARY BY-PASS SURGERY
HEALTH BENEFITS OF MOVEMENT, WASHING AND DRINKING WATER
THE EXISTENCE OF MICROSCOPIC LIFE
THE EXISTENCE OF ANIMAL SOCIETIES
BIOMIMETICS: DRAWING INSPIRATION FROM THE DESIGN IN LIVING THINGS
LOCUSTS MOVING IN SWARMS
ANT COMMUNICATION
THE FOOD CYCLE
THE EARS ARE ACTIVE DURING SLEEP
THE IMPORTANCE OF MOVEMENT IN SLEEP
REDUCED MOVEMENT AT NIGHT
CHEST CONTRACTION WITH INCREASING HEIGHT

PART TWO: PREDICTIONS IN THE QUR’AN

INTRODUCTION
THE VICTORY OF BYZANTIUM
THE PRESERVATION OF PHARAOH’S BODY
THE CONQUEST OF MAKKAH
THE TRIBE OF ISRAEL WILL BECOME VERY HAUGHTY
THE EXPLORATION OF SPACE
THE VOYAGE TO THE MOON
MODERN MEANS OF TRANSPORT
PLANE TECHNOLOGY
IMAGE TRANSMISSION
SMELL TRANSFERENCE
THE USE OF ELECTRICITY
ARTESIAN WELLS
THE ARMY-ANT IN TECHNOLOGY
ATOMIC ENERGY AND FISSION

PART THREE: THE HISTORICAL MIRACLES OF THE QUR’AN

“HAMAN” AND ANCIENT EGYPT MONUMENTS
PROPHET MUSA (AS) AND SEA’S SPLITTING IN TWO
THE TROUBLES WHICH AFFLICTED PHARAOH AND THOSE AROUND HIM
THE PROPHET MUSA (AS) REFERRED TO AS A MAGICIAN
THE WORD “PHARAOH” IN THE QUR’AN
NUH’S FLOOD
THE CITY OF IRAM
THE CITIES OF SODOM AND GOMORRAH
THE PEOPLE OF SABA AND THE ARIM FLOOD
THE PEOPLE OF AL-HIJR

MATHEMATICAL MIRACLES OF THE QUR’AN

WORD REPETITIONS IN THE QUR’AN
NUMEROLOGICAL CALCULATIONS (ABJAD) IN THE QUR’AN

THE PERFECTION OF THE QUR’AN FROM THE LITERARY ASPECT

THE INIMITABILITY OF THE QUR’AN
COMMENTS ABOUT THE QUR’AN FROM VARIOUS SCHOLARS
A SELECTION OF OTHER STATEMENTS REGARDING THE QUR’AN

CONCLUSION

THE QUR’AN IS THE WORD OF GOD​

Miracles of the Qur’an
harunyahya.com/c_miracles_quran.php

 
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freedomm:
From Angel Gabriel (Jibra’eel) (PBUH) who Revealed these Words of Allah to Prophet Muhammed (PBUH).
Mohammed claimed to hear the words from Gabriel, and that is part of the claim that he is a prophet. Remember, though, I am already aware of the claim and now I’m asking for objective proof of that claim. You can’t simply re-state a claim as proof of its own validity, as I also noted a few threads ago.

What I’m asking you is, what real evidence do we have that it was Gabriel that spoke these words to Mohammed, rather than Mohammed’s own words?
 
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freedomm:
Dear exoflare:

The following site may be helpfull to understand the:

Miracles of the Qur’an

harunyahya.com/c_miracles_quran.php

I’ve seen most of these before, but remember again that I’m not going to just post a general reply to copy-pasted links like this. It’s only going to flood the thread too quickly and derail it. Pick one or two points from that site if you want, and we can discuss them in detail here. Til then, we’ll go on with the other stuff…
 
Muslims, please give me any objective reason why you think that Mohammed was some sort of prophet and that the Quran is from God. Note, key word “objective”. You have to have some kind of empirical evidence, measured by a consistent standard, and not just based upon “feelings”.
Exoflare” : for argument’s sake, just a “devil’s advocate” kind of thing here; do you not have to have some kind of empirical evidence , measured by a consistent standard, and not just based upon “feelings”, to assert that Jesus was the actual immaculately-conceived son of God, was of the same actual essence as God, (along with the Holy Spirit), rose from the dead literally , after three days in the tomb, ascended into Heaven literally, meant to minister at all to Gentiles in the first place, not to mention meant specifically to found the *RCC * as his “one true Church” and to also lay the basis for all its hierarchy from pope all the way down, * and * personally institute the Eucharist and the sacraments and the communion of saints , and so on and so forth?

Upon what empirical evidence and objective standards do you base all of this?? By the way, if it’s any kind of Biblical (NT or OT) quote you’re going to cite, stop and think: upon what empirical evidence, not just based on “feelings”, do you know that that (or those) Biblical (again, NT or OT) quotes that you’re basing your belief upon are actually true?

The point is, it’s all based on blind Faith. Every religion. Roman Catholicism included. There’s absolutely no empirical evidence based on a consistent objective standard that will ever “prove” that Roman Catholicism is the only “true way”. There’s no “empirical evidence” for any of this. You could destroy any religion , or poke holes through them all at least and make them sound ridiculous, if you try hard enough. The Muslims go on blind faith that Muhammad literally was receiving, over a 23 year period, the actual words of God, via the angel Gabriel. The RC’s go on blind faith that … all of that stuff I said in my first paragraph… is 100% true. The Protestants believe that their way is the right way and the RCC is dead wrong on alot of issues. Atheists claim to “know” there is “no God”. Even atheists are going on blind faith in a way. Jews claim that they were God’s original “chosen people” and always have had a unique and special relationship with God. Devout Orthodox Jews believe the Torah is the literal word of God, as given to Moses in the desert, and the NT is of literally no theological importance whatsoever. What real * empirical evidence, not just “feelings”, as you put it , do any of them have to back up their claims?? It usually comes down to an exchange that will end up something like this , "Well I know I’m right, my way is right, my Church is right, and I have this that and the other piece of religious literature right here to back up that claim. See? So and so said this, and he said this here, and we know * it is true." And then guess what? The other guy from the other faith tradition says pretty much the exact same thing in response to that. So it’s a terminal unbreakable impasse, right off the bat.

But they’re, or we, as humans, are all trying to essentially get to the same place; a place in our hearts where we feel peace and we believe we are doing the right thing, worshiping in the way that’s right for us as individuals and brings us solace , comfort and peace. We’re all trying to get to the same place, the same spiritual place, we’re just taking different routes. Some are easier, some are more circuitous, some are more “scenic”. But I personally refuse to declare that there is any one “right” way or “wrong” way to worship God. If you’re basically a good person, you do no real harm, you do good works for others in need, my deepest “feelings” are that you will be just fine, as far as your “immortal soul” goes, whether you’re Catholic, non-Catholic Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, whatever.
 
TheBigQ"**Exoflare [/quote said:
" : for argument’s sake, just a “devil’s advocate” kind of thing here; do you not have to have some kind of empirical evidence , measured by a consistent standard, and not just based upon “feelings”, to assert that Jesus was the actual immaculately-conceived son of God, was of the same actual essence as God, (along with the Holy Spirit), rose from the dead literally , after three days in the tomb, ascended into Heaven literally, meant to minister at all to Gentiles in the first place, not to mention meant specifically to found the *RCC *as his “one true Church” and to also lay the basis for all its hierarchy from pope all the way down, *and *personally institute the Eucharist and the sacraments and the communion of saints , and so on and so forth?

I’m game if you are… but post it in another thread.

Next time please respect the request I made at the top of the OP, though. Thanks.
 
Freedomm,

Did you see my last reply to you? I’m asking what real evidence do we have that it was Gabriel that spoke these words to Mohammed, rather than Mohammed’s own words?
 
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exoflare:
Freedomm,

Did you see my last reply to you? I’m asking what real evidence do we have that it was Gabriel that spoke these words to Mohammed, rather than Mohammed’s own words?
Dear exoflare:

The evidence that you have of Jesus’ miraculous birth without earthly father is the same type of evidence I have for the genuineness of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) 's Revelation of God through Angel Gabriel (Jibra’eel).

Sounds logical?

 
Dear exoflare:
Your last question reminds me the curiosity of Philip (if I assume this incident is reported without alteration).

Philip was among Jesus’ disciples. It is understood that he must have known and a firm belief as well about Jesus’ birth without earthly father. And it is unimaginable that he may not have seen any of Jesus’ ‘signs, wonders and miracles’ that later Peter testified in public after the pentecost.

Now listen to Philip, what he is asking from his Master, Jesus:

“shew us the Father, and it is enough for us”.

Is it not amazing that despite being with Jesus for long time and inspite seeing/knowing his ‘signs, wonders and miracles’, he is not satisfied and want to see the father. Now listen what Jesus replied:
Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, Shew us the Father? Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works.

Then later Jesus also reported to have said this:

** If you love me, keep my commandments… . . . .

And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever.The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you… . . . . for the Father is greater than I. **------John 14

Did you get the point, dear exoflare?​
 
I posted this on Muslim’s thread, and so I’m going to post it here as well. This is an important clarification.
A mistake I made on that other thread I started was using the word “proof” rather than “evidence”, when I asked what objective proof there was of Mohammed being a prophet. It is true as I think somebody on here just mentioned that proving something beyond the capacity of human minds is impossible… So yeah, I was asking for objective “evidence”, not so much “proof”. That was a little slip-up there on my part.
 
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freedomm:
Dear exoflare:Your last question reminds me the curiosity of Philip (if I assume this incident is reported without alteration).

Philip was among Jesus’ disciples. It is understood that he must have known and a firm belief as well about Jesus’ birth without earthly father. And it is unimaginable that he may not have seen any of Jesus’ ‘signs, wonders and miracles’ that later Peter testified in public after the pentecost.

Now listen to Philip, what he is asking from his Master, Jesus:

“shew us the Father, and it is enough for us”.

Is it not amazing that despite being with Jesus for long time and inspite seeing/knowing his ‘signs, wonders and miracles’, he is not satisfied and want to see the father. Now listen what Jesus replied:

Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, Shew us the Father? Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works.

Then later Jesus also reported to have said this:

If you love me, keep my commandments… . . . .

And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever.The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you… . . . . for the Father is greater than I. ------John 14

Did you get the point, dear exoflare?
Okay, but what are you trying to imply with this? Just come out and say it.
 
Really, freedom. I would like to know, just what were you trying to get across with that long post?

Muslim, I’m curious about your thoughts on my last reply to you as well.
 
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exoflare:
I never said it had fallacies. For a person to be guilty of “fallacy” (the term doesn’t apply to written documents, those would be referred to as “inerrant”… there’s a difference), they would have to first assert that something was correct, and then be proven wrong on that same point. My point is that nobody ever said that the book of Genesis was actually asserting that a worldwide flood actually took place, so it would not make any sense to accuse that book of being in error on a claim that had never even been made.

Your question about Jesus is irrelevant in this case because like I said, you have to take every individual book in it’s own context. Genesis doesn’t speak of Jesus. Stick to one point at a time.
this was the last response of you towards me…
i dont really see anything to answer about? maybe i am confused…? restate the question again.
 
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freedomm:
Dear exoflare:

The evidence that you have of Jesus’ miraculous birth without earthly father is the same type of evidence I have for the genuineness of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) 's Revelation of God through Angel Gabriel (Jibra’eel).

Sounds logical?

Freedomm,

Could you please quit centering your posts? It’s hard to follow along.

God bless.
 
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Muslim:
this was the last response of you towards me…
i dont really see anything to answer about? maybe i am confused…? restate the question again.
My question is, why do you say that the book of Genesis contains “fallacy”? How do you know what context it was supposed to be written in?
 
Okay freedomm, seriously, no I don’t “get the point”. Please just come out and say it.
 
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Muslim:
i am sorry but i just have to use this… i know its been used before but…
if you can get 1.5 billion+ people to listen to your message and follow you and be devout…1500 years after you have died…i consider that impressive…dont you think so?
ah, No because 1.5 billion people can be wrong, they are only human.
 
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Muslim:
i am sorry but i just have to use this… i know its been used before but…
if you can get 1.5 billion+ people to listen to your message and follow you and be devout…1500 years after you have died…i consider that impressive…dont you think so?
How about 1.5 billion+ people 2000 years after you’ve died? Should you be more impressed by the extra 500 years? 😉
 
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