Okay, now I'll complain

[RichT]

Okay, so I have never really been one to care what other’s are wearing to mass. I just don’t think it is my place to worry about that stuff. I worry about my family and pray for the rest. So, this past Sunday I am standing up before mass starts and saying hello to those around me and what do my eyes see? There was a girl who couldn’t have been more that 13 or 14 years old wearing a t-shirt that was absolutely unbelievable! This young girl was on the busty side if you know what I mean. Her t-shirt was about 3 sizes too smal and had the following slogan on it.

“I Make This Shirt
LOOK GOOD!”

Now the LOOK GOOD part was of course stretched across her bust area and was so stretched out that the letter’s were almost un-readable.:bigyikes: I was completely shocked that she was even allowed to leave the house looking like that. Her parents were sitting right there with her. The really sad part was her obvious young age. How could a parent allow someone so young to make a spectacle of herself in such a way that men would be looking at her like that.:tsktsk: It was almost as if she was saying look at these guys! I guess the only good thing to come of this is that I am learning quite a bit about how not to let any of my three daughters dress.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Rich,

A couple of years ago I was at the Divine Liturgy celebrated by our Patriarch, Gregory III who had come from Lebanon to North Hollywood. One woman approached him for communion wearing an incredibly low-cut dress. He refused her communion and chastised her in public for wearing such an immodest dress! Perhaps we need more of that…

Deacon Ed

 

[otm]

Deacon Ed:

Rich,

A couple of years ago I was at the Divine Liturgy celebrated by our Patriarch, Gregory III who had come from Lebanon to North Hollywood. One woman approached him for communion wearing an incredibly low-cut dress. He refused her communion and chastised her in public for wearing such an immodest dress! Perhaps we need more of that…

Deacon Ed

However, the sad likelyhood is that she left the Church. Correction is needed. Public correction, rarely, and only after other avenues have been exhausted.

As to the 13 year old; the problem didn’t start the week before, or the year before. It started when she was about 6 months old, in the way they “disciplined” her (the root word is “discipulous”, which means student…). Or, perhaps even before then. I suspect they have some foggy clue about modesty. Modesty is not the main issue; obedience is, and it appears that neither they nor she really has that word in their dictionary.

As to how to deal with it? Good question, as most approaches are going to cause more harm than good.

 

[rayne89]

I few years back at our former parish the youth choir sung at Easter sunday Mass. Every girl but one was a an extremely short dress (the kind you don’t bend over in - it was a popular style at the time) with spaghetti straps. Only one has a knee length dress with a button up sweater over top. It was embarressing to watch them. I thought jeeze where are their parents brains! At that age I knew better than wear something so immodest to church (although it didn’t stop me from wearing things that we’re immodest else wear. )

 

[albert_cipriani]

otm:

Correction is needed. Public correction, rarely, and only after other avenues have been exhausted.

To the contrary, public offence warrants public correction.

As to how to deal with it? Good question, as most approaches are going to cause more harm than good.

My, how helpful! [Turning off my sarcasm meter and continuing…] Any approach to a problem is better than no approach. In this case it is more than a problem, it is the sin of scandal and immodesty.

If Jesus was concerned about results, He wouldn’t have said all those bad but truthful things about the Pharisees. Point is, followers of Christ are called to emulate Him, not politicians. – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

RichT:

Okay, so I have never really been one to care what other’s are wearing to mass. I just don’t think it is my place to worry about that stuff. I worry about my family and pray for the rest. So, this past Sunday I am standing up before mass starts and saying hello to those around me and what do my eyes see? There was a girl who couldn’t have been more that 13 or 14 years old wearing a t-shirt that was absolutely unbelievable! This young girl was on the busty side if you know what I mean. Her t-shirt was about 3 sizes too smal and had the following slogan on it.

“I Make This Shirt
LOOK GOOD!”

Now the LOOK GOOD part was of course stretched across her bust area and was so stretched out that the letter’s were almost un-readable.:bigyikes: I was completely shocked that she was even allowed to leave the house looking like that. Her parents were sitting right there with her. The really sad part was her obvious young age. How could a parent allow someone so young to make a spectacle of herself in such a way that men would be looking at her like that.:tsktsk: It was almost as if she was saying look at these guys! I guess the only good thing to come of this is that I am learning quite a bit about how not to let any of my three daughters dress.

So what exactly did you say to the child and her parents?

There was at one Mass a young adult about 18-19 in front of me. He had on short cargo pants to his knees. The problem with them was they were full of holes and his superman underwear was clearly visable through several half -dollar sized holes on his rear. After mass I said to his father who was with him, wearing dress pants and a polo shirt. You should give him a few extra bucks for some new clothes! He had no clue why I said that. He didn’t even notice what his son was wearing.

 

[moira]

On Sunday, my 15 year old daughter walked out of her room ready for Mass in jeans with a short skirt OVER them, a black t-shirt and a bunch of bracelets and some net things on her hands that she said she borrowed from a friend (I sure didn’t buy them). I said No way are you going to Mass like that. And she went in and changed her clothes. She kept the jeans but changed the rest. And I’ll compromise to some extent because I’d rather her go to Mass than fight about clothes and she’s at the age where I hear ‘God doesn’t care how I dress.’

It’s really hard to be the parent. How did my mother stand me?

 

[Joan_M]

moira:

she’s at the age where I hear 'God doesn’t care how I dress.'

It’s really hard to be the parent. How did my mother stand me?

My response would be “Oh yes? And how, exactly, do you come to that conclusion? You have a direct line to God, do you?”

I so can’t stand foolish comments like that! And they aren’t always from teenagers, either! Why is it that when people are corrected about something inappropriate they respond “God doesn’t care …”? God always cares that we do what is right!!

Just venting - not directed ar Moira or her daughter! Moira, I sympathize with you!!

 

[Michael_C]

RichT:

Okay, so I have never really been one to care what other’s are wearing to mass. I just don’t think it is my place to worry about that stuff. I worry about my family and pray for the rest. So, this past Sunday I am standing up before mass starts and saying hello to those around me and what do my eyes see? There was a girl who couldn’t have been more that 13 or 14 years old wearing a t-shirt that was absolutely unbelievable! This young girl was on the busty side if you know what I mean. Her t-shirt was about 3 sizes too smal and had the following slogan on it.

“I Make This Shirt
LOOK GOOD!”

Now the LOOK GOOD part was of course stretched across her bust area and was so stretched out that the letter’s were almost un-readable.:bigyikes: I was completely shocked that she was even allowed to leave the house looking like that. Her parents were sitting right there with her. The really sad part was her obvious young age. How could a parent allow someone so young to make a spectacle of herself in such a way that men would be looking at her like that.:tsktsk: It was almost as if she was saying look at these guys! I guess the only good thing to come of this is that I am learning quite a bit about how not to let any of my three daughters dress.

RichT, I understand your concern but maybe, just maybe the parents fought and struggled to get her to just go to Church. Maybe what you saw as offensive was actually a victory for the parents. We should pray for these people.

 

[mkw]

A big question concerning immodest clothing at mass.

…If under working/driving age, Where did they get the money
and transportation to the store in the first place?

As long as I provide the $ and transportation, my children are not free to choose ANY type of clothing they wish, regardless of what their friends have. If they manage to obtain unacceptable clothing, as I am the one doing the laundry, they will get TOSSED.

My kids say I violate their privacy, to which I respond…You live under MY roof,mortagage is in MY name and it is my God entrusted responsibility to rear them the very best I know how.

NO is a great and often time seldom used LOVE WORD.

 

[Patrick2340]

Though I do not approve of it, I can understand kids, specifically teenagers, trying to get away with wearing immodest clothing at Mass. However, I was at a Mass in my former parish where an adult lady with teenage daughters came to Mass dressed in a tight, fire-engine red, leather body suit. Judging from the looks of it, she must have used butter to get into it.

 

[The_Barrister]

Michael C:

RichT, I understand your concern but maybe, just maybe the parents fought and struggled to get her to just go to Church. Maybe what you saw as offensive was actually a victory for the parents. We should pray for these people.

That may well be true in some cases. In most cases I’m willing to bet that a parent could have done a better job - perhaps starting years before.

I also agree with the prior post that a public offense warrants a public correction, but a private approach should be used first, it at all possible.

I think we’ve seen a lot of good points on this forum.

 

[johnnyjoe]

Michael C:

RichT, I understand your concern but maybe, just maybe the parents fought and struggled to get her to just go to Church. Maybe what you saw as offensive was actually a victory for the parents. We should pray for these people.

Now there is Charity, and foolish excuse making…this is the latter.

It seems that the secular culture has taught it’s young people that a body is for display. That “display” is something to be proud of, something to manipulate others with.

Christopher West said in one of his tapes that women most usually manifest thier fallen nature through emotional manipulation, and men through their eyes. Immodest dress is a prime example of fallen natures falling into each other. This young lady is able to emotionally manipulate men by displaying the naturally good gift of her body in a provocative way, and men who look at her get to “use” her with thier eyes - stirring the “lust in the heart” that Christ so carefully warned us about.

This young lady has the misfortune of having parents who do not appreciate what the body means, since it comes to us “in the likeness and image of God”. Perhaps it is up to us fellow parishoners to remind them that their bodies are more valuable than cheap displays of cheap emotional manipulation.

 

[otm]

albert cipriani:

To the contrary, public offence warrants public correction.

My, how helpful! [Turning off my sarcasm meter and continuing…] Any approach to a problem is better than no approach. In this case it is more than a problem, it is the sin of scandal and immodesty.

If Jesus was concerned about results, He wouldn’t have said all those bad but truthful things about the Pharisees. Point is, followers of Christ are called to emulate Him, not politicians. – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic

I appreciate your sincerity. But common sense indicates that the purpose of corrction is to correct behavior, not create worse behavior. The old adage “There are more flies drawn to honey than to vinegar” has a lot of truth in it.

Taking a judgemental, or self-righteous, or legalistic approach publicly to the issue of immodesty is much more likely to backfire than taking a very clear, firm, but loving approach in private. Both have the same objective: change behavior. The latter is much more likely to achieve the type of change of behavior desired than the former is.

And if you wish to relate it to the Gospels, as I agree we should follow Christ, read again the story of the woman caught in adultry. Christ was very clear in telling her to stop the adultery. However, he did not correct her until after all had left. Your approach would have Christ excoriate her in public, and then deal wtiht he Pharisees.

Her offense was public. Her correction was not. Public offense does not deserve public correction until private correction has been tried and found not to work.

I don’t suggest no approach to the problem of the 13 year old. I do suggest that whoever decides to take on the task realize that driving that kid out of the Church is not what we are called to do, and many approaches could accomplish just that.

And my recollection is that for her to commit a sin, three things have to be present: It has to be seriously wrong (you and I agree it is), she has to choose to do the act (we agree here also; it is plainly obvious), and she has to know it is seriously wrong (this is where we part company).

I don’t know how many 13 year olds you are around, but she is a child in a woman’s body, surrounded by a world of Brittany Spears, Calvin Kline ads, unmitigated hours of soft porn on TV, middle school peer pressure, and parents who don’t appear to have taught her modesty. You say it is the sin of scandal and immodesty, and I say you are awfully close to being judgemental. I seriously doubt that she knows, or even has any real comprehension, of the wrongness of her acts.

 

[otm]

Patrick2340:

Though I do not approve of it, I can understand kids, specifically teenagers, trying to get away with wearing immodest clothing at Mass. However, I was at a Mass in my former parish where an adult lady with teenage daughters came to Mass dressed in a tight, fire-engine red, leather body suit. Judging from the looks of it, she must have used butter to get into it.

And I’m going to have to use a steel bristled brush to scrub that image out of my mind!

 

[Fidelis]

otm:

Taking a judgemental, or self-righteous, or legalistic approach publicly to the issue of immodesty is much more likely to backfire than taking a very clear, firm, but loving approach in private. Both have the same objective: change behavior. The latter is much more likely to achieve the type of change of behavior desired than the former is.

So is the priest (or whoever) supposed to chase down every immodest girl or woman in the congregation after Mass to correct her privately? In my parish, he’d have to be Carl Lewis. If a correction needs to be made, it should be made when the opprutunity presents itself. There is also the consideration of bad example. If this is not addressed then NOBODY will know it’s a problem.

And my recollection is that for her to commit a sin, three things have to be present: It has to be seriously wrong (you and I agree it is), she has to choose to do the act (we agree here also; it is plainly obvious), and she has to know it is seriously wrong (this is where we part company).

This only applies to mortal sins.

I seriously doubt that she knows, or even has any real comprehension, of the wrongness of her acts.

Which makes it OK and not addressable?

 

[moira]

Joan M:

My response would be “Oh yes? And how, exactly, do you come to that conclusion? You have a direct line to God, do you?”

I so can’t stand foolish comments like that! And they aren’t always from teenagers, either! Why is it that when people are corrected about something inappropriate they respond “God doesn’t care …”? God always cares that we do what is right!!

Just venting - not directed ar Moira or her daughter! Moira, I sympathize with you!!

I like your answer Joan. I wish I would have thought of it. Next time I’ll know how to reply! I agree. I can’t stand those comments either.

 

[otm]

Fidelis:

So is the priest (or whoever) supposed to chase down every immodest girl or woman in the congregation after Mass to correct her privately? In my parish, he’d have to be Carl Lewis. If a correction needs to be made, it should be made when the opprutunity presents itself. There is also the consideration of bad example. If this is not addressed then NOBODY will know it’s a problem.

Did I suggest that it not be addressed?

What I suggested is that making a scene of it is not the best way to address the issue. If there are multiple individuals offending, part of the homily could address it; this doesn’t call anyone out. Particularly egregious examples could be spoken to without having to do it in front of the whole congregation.

Fidelis:

This only applies to mortal sins.

I am well aware of that. Albert Cipriani stated that it was a sin of scandal and immodesty. I think we need to be carefulwho we accuse of sinning; read both posts again.

Fidelis:

Which makes it OK and not addressable?

Again, read both posts. I make no such suggestion. I am suggesting that in approaching a teenager, perhaps an approach that explains why it is a sin, rahter than the fact that it is a sin, may accomplish a whole lot more.

Telling someone they are sinning is a short route to being shut down, and there are entirely too many people who want to do just that. Explaining what modesty is, and why it is so vitally important to a woman is much more likely to get them to think, to understand, and to change. I am all for truth. I am all for modesty. I am not much for a legalistic approach.

 

[RichT]

Michael C:

RichT, I understand your concern but maybe, just maybe the parents fought and struggled to get her to just go to Church. Maybe what you saw as offensive was actually a victory for the parents. We should pray for these people.

Then apparently they didn’t fight or struggle enough. I as a parent of three daughters, don’t for one minute buy that excuse. That is the same excuse that has allowed parents to be less than what they should be.

 

[albert_cipriani]

otm:

Albert Cipriani stated that it was a sin of scandal and immodesty. I think we need to be careful who we accuse of sinning; read both posts again.

If you take your own advice and re-read the posts, you’ll see this:
.:bigyikes:

You will read that the poster found the busty girl’s attire: "absolutely unbelievable! "

You will read that the poster was: "Shocked"

You will read that the immodestly dressed girl was making:
“a spectacle of herself in such a way that men would be looking at her like that”

You know what that spells? The scandal of immodesty compounded by it being sacrilegiously flaunted in the House of God.

Now, who did I “accuse of sinning?” The poster was obviously scandalized. Scandal is a sin. I stated that as a fact, not as an accusation of anyone having committed the sin of scandal. It’s enough to identify the sin. It’s up to God to identify the sinner.

If you insist that I accused someone of sinning, then it is you, sir, who may be committing the sin of bearing false witness against me. – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic

http://www.geocities.com/albert_cipriani/index.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReligiousPhilosophy/