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dingodile
Guest
If a person is baptized in the Old Catholic Church, by a priest with valid apostolic succession, is that person allowed to take part in Communion in a Roman Catholic Church?
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Spirithound
Guest
I would imagine that if that person were to hold to the Church’s beliefs, particularly about transubstantiation, then yes.
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dingodile
Guest
Makes sense. As far as I know, Old Catholic teaching on the Real Presence is the same as Roman Catholic teaching. I just wasn’t sure whether not being “in Communion with Rome” entails denial of access to Communion. Thank you.
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Usige
Guest
I don’t believe so.
My understanding is that the Old Catholic Church is more in communion with the Anglican and Episcopal churches via the Union of Utrecht. While the sacraments might be valid I would assume any confirmation, etc. would be considered illicit. In that case an Old Catholic would need to be brought into communion just as an Anglican would be.
Note that taking the Eucharist in a Roman Catholic church would also imply accepting Roman Catholic doctrines that Old Catholics have been known to reject (i.e. a male only priesthood, papal infallibility, allowing use of artificial birth control, etc.)
My understanding is that the Old Catholic Church is more in communion with the Anglican and Episcopal churches via the Union of Utrecht. While the sacraments might be valid I would assume any confirmation, etc. would be considered illicit. In that case an Old Catholic would need to be brought into communion just as an Anglican would be.
Note that taking the Eucharist in a Roman Catholic church would also imply accepting Roman Catholic doctrines that Old Catholics have been known to reject (i.e. a male only priesthood, papal infallibility, allowing use of artificial birth control, etc.)
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JamestheOlder
Guest
Thank you. They are not “in communion” with the RCC. Why would they want to lie and pretend they are? Exceptions for receipt of three Sacraments are made for emergencies. As a normal practice, “no” to receipt of Holy Communion in the Catholic Church.
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Spirithound
Guest
I think the Catholic Church allows Eastern Orthodox to receive Holy Communion, right?
Although, if there is a particular difference between them and the Old Catholics, then the analogy might be off…
Although, if there is a particular difference between them and the Old Catholics, then the analogy might be off…
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JamestheOlder
Guest
Nope. Receipt of Holy Communion is restricted to Eastern Churches “in union” with Rome. Emergency situations permit receipt of Holy Communion by Orthodox, Anglican, and even other Christians who are properly disposed to Catholic belief.
Pray for reconciliation. It will be the only answer: “That all may be one…”
Peace.
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Corki
Guest
The USCCB states
Old Catholics are not listed as being an exception to “ordinarily not admitted to Holy Communion”.
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Usige
Guest
Yes, but… The Roman Catholic Church does not object to Eastern Catholics receiving communion, but it does ask them to respect the norms of their communities. If they may receive in their own communities then that is the preference. In many cases I think that orthodox bishops do not allow their members to receive communion in the RCC.
With respect to the Old Catholic Church, I believe there are still considered to be in schism with Rome and therefore generally disallowed from receiving the sacraments in an RC Church.
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runningdude
Guest
Actually, both Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Christians are permitted to receive in a Catholic Church, provided they do so freely and accept the validity of Catholic sacraments. They are, however, also encouraged to follow the disciplines of their own churches, which may not permit their members to receive communion outside of Orthodoxy.
The Catholic Church accepts that the Eastern and Orthodox Churches have a valid apostolic authority over their members, which can oblige their members to not receive in a Catholic Church. The Pope can, however, dispense this obligation if an orthodox Christian wished to join the Catholic Church, as the Pope has universal jurisdiction over all baptized Christians.
A similar status applies to other apostolic churches, although it gets murkier depending on how faithful that church is. The Polish National Catholic Church for instance, is in very good shape doctrine wise, and its members have few bars to receiving in a Roman Catholic Church. However, some churches in the Old Catholic Communion (from which the PNCC originated but has separated from), have begun ordaining woman as “deacons” or even “priests”, so it may or may not have apostolic succession anymore, and these members likely to be discouraged from receiving in a Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church accepts that the Eastern and Orthodox Churches have a valid apostolic authority over their members, which can oblige their members to not receive in a Catholic Church. The Pope can, however, dispense this obligation if an orthodox Christian wished to join the Catholic Church, as the Pope has universal jurisdiction over all baptized Christians.
A similar status applies to other apostolic churches, although it gets murkier depending on how faithful that church is. The Polish National Catholic Church for instance, is in very good shape doctrine wise, and its members have few bars to receiving in a Roman Catholic Church. However, some churches in the Old Catholic Communion (from which the PNCC originated but has separated from), have begun ordaining woman as “deacons” or even “priests”, so it may or may not have apostolic succession anymore, and these members likely to be discouraged from receiving in a Catholic Church.
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JamestheOlder
Guest
This is Canon Law, pretty near the whole section:
Can. 843 §1. Sacred ministers cannot deny the sacraments to those who seek them at appropriate times, are properly disposed, and are not prohibited by law from receiving them.
§2. Pastors of souls and other members of the Christian faithful, according to their respective ecclesiastical function, have the duty to take care that those who seek the sacraments are prepared to receive them by proper evangelization and catechetical instruction, attentive to the norms issued by competent authority.
Can. 844 §1. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone, who likewise receive them licitly from Catholic ministers alone, without prejudice to the prescripts of §§2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and ⇒ can. 861, §2.
§2. Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-
Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.
§3. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick licitly to members of Eastern Churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church if they seek such on their own accord and are properly disposed. This is also valid for members of other Churches which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition in regard to the sacraments as these Eastern Churches.
§4. If the danger of death is present or if, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or conference of bishops, some other grave necessity urges it, Catholic ministers administer these same sacraments licitly also to other Christians not having full communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and who seek such on their own accord, provided that they manifest Catholic faith in respect to these sacraments and are properly disposed.
§5. For the cases mentioned in §§2, 3, and 4, the diocesan bishop or conference of bishops is not to issue general norms except after consultation at least with the local competent authority of the interested non-Catholic Church or community.
Note: Canon #861 applies to Baptism.
The red highlighting is mine.
I stand corrected on Canon 844, Item 3, above.
Peace.
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Earnest_Bunbury
Guest
It would seem that, not unlike an excommunication related to an abortion which takes a special power authorized by a Bishop of the Church to lift, the deep metaphysical truth of willful separation would not be lightly repairable. It would take more than some mental intellectual acceptance or a purely physical “touch” leading from a few people who didn’t actually apostatize thinking they could somehow purify the metaphysical form of the whole group.
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BVM_1221
Guest
The Baptism is valid if done in The Name Of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. :yup:
But for Communion, and the other sacraments to be valid, one must be CONFIRMED in the Roman Catholic Church. The Old Catholic Church does not recognize the supremacy of the Pope, is in schism with Rome, and as a result supports doctrines at adds with the Roman Catholic Church. :tsktsk:
Old Catholic sacraments, with the exception of Baptism, are not considered valid by the Roman Catholic Church.:nope:
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BVM_1221
Guest
Yes, members of the Orthodox Church are allowed communion in both Eastern and Western Catholic Churches. HOWEVER, the Orthodox Church itself does not support Orthodox having communion at Catholic churches, or Catholics having communion at Orthodox Churches.
When I was on my six week vacation in Greece last year, I observed the norms and did not try to take Orthodox communion. But I always talked to the Priests beforehand, ALL were quite happy for me to join the communion line for a blessing, and I frequently received a large, special portion of the blessed (not consecrated) bread.
And I don’t know about you, but I need all the blessings I can get
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dingodile
Guest
Thank you all for your answers.
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FrDavid96
Guest
b) Sharing Sacramental Life with Christians of Other Churches and Ecclesial Communities
It is in the light of these two basic principles, which must always be taken into account together, that in general the Catholic Church permits access to its Eucharistic communion and to the sacraments of penance and anointing of the sick, only to those who share its oneness in faith, worship and ecclesial life.133 For the same reasons, it also recognizes that in certain circumstances, by way of exception, and under certain conditions, access to these sacraments may be permitted, or even commended, for Christians of other Churches and ecclesial Communities.134
- A sacrament is an act of Christ and of the Church through the Spirit.130 Its celebration in a concrete community is the sign of the reality of its unity in faith, worship and community life. As well as being signs, sacraments—most specially the Eucharist—are sources of the unity of the Christian community and of spiritual life, and are means for building them up. Thus Eucharistic communion is inseparably linked to full ecclesial communion and its visible expression.
It is in the light of these two basic principles, which must always be taken into account together, that in general the Catholic Church permits access to its Eucharistic communion and to the sacraments of penance and anointing of the sick, only to those who share its oneness in faith, worship and ecclesial life.133 For the same reasons, it also recognizes that in certain circumstances, by way of exception, and under certain conditions, access to these sacraments may be permitted, or even commended, for Christians of other Churches and ecclesial Communities.134
- In case of danger of death, Catholic ministers may administer these sacraments when the conditions given below (n. 131) are present. In other cases, it is strongly recommended that the diocesan Bishop, taking into account any norms which may have been established for this matter by the Episcopal Conference or by the Synods of Eastern Catholic Churches, establish general norms for judging situations of grave and pressing need and for verifying the conditions mentioned below (n. 131).135 In accord with Canon Law,136 these general norms are to be established only after consultation with at least the local competent authority of the other interested Church or ecclesial Community. Catholic ministers will judge individual cases and administer these sacraments only in accord with these established norms, where they exist. Otherwise they will judge according to the norms of this Directory.
- The conditions under which a Catholic minister may administer the sacraments of the Eucharist, of penance and of the anointing of the sick to a baptized person who may be found in the circumstances given above (n. 130) are that the person be unable to have recourse for the sacrament desired to a minister of his or her own Church or ecclesial Community, ask for the sacrament of his or her own initiative, manifest Catholic faith in this sacrament and be properly disposed.137
- On the basis of the Catholic doctrine concerning the sacraments and their validity, a Catholic who finds himself or herself in the circumstances mentioned above (nn. 130 and 131) may ask for these sacraments only from a minister in whose Church these sacraments are valid or from one who is known to be validly ordained according to the Catholic teaching on ordination.
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FAB
Guest
My understanding is that the Old Catholic Church split with the Roman Church a couple of hundred years ago and does not have apostolic succession. The split came after a Council, (sounds familar to the SSPX)
Thier sacraments are not reconigized by the Roman Church. The difference between this group and othodox church’s is that the Roman Church does recongize their apostolic succession,even though they do not as of yet recognize the authority of the pope.
We have an Old Catholic Church in our area. A contraversay came up a few years ago when it was discovered that they were recruiting large number of hispanics to their congrigation and “baptized” their children, not telling them that were not in union with the Roman Church. Many of these people eventually went to other parishes for the remainging sacraments for their children and found out that their children had not been baptized in a form recongized.
Thier sacraments are not reconigized by the Roman Church. The difference between this group and othodox church’s is that the Roman Church does recongize their apostolic succession,even though they do not as of yet recognize the authority of the pope.
We have an Old Catholic Church in our area. A contraversay came up a few years ago when it was discovered that they were recruiting large number of hispanics to their congrigation and “baptized” their children, not telling them that were not in union with the Roman Church. Many of these people eventually went to other parishes for the remainging sacraments for their children and found out that their children had not been baptized in a form recongized.
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FrDavid96
Guest
Right. It was Vatican One (1870s).
They did have apostolic succession. Note the past tense. In the last few decades, they’ve been ordaining women and for that and other reasons (like their mixing with the Anglicans) their hold on apostolic succession is questionable. Unlike the Orthodox who all have it, with the “Old Catholics” some do, some don’t. An Old Catholic priest ordained in the 1950s for example, would probably be validly ordained. One ordained today would certainly be questionable at best, but most likely not validly ordained.
As a whole, the community does not have Succession, although some individual clerics ordained in the past do. That’s why they’re not mentioned in the USCCB guidelines on Communion; again, unlike the Orthodox and the Polish Nationals. With the “Old Catholics” it usually comes down to tracing an individual priest’s history.
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mellowcheddar
Guest
OK, I know this is page 2 and I’m a little late to the party here, but what is an “Old Catholic?”
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FrDavid96
Guest
It is a schismatic group that broke away from the Church after Vatican One (defining papal infallibility) and joined with other schismatics from before the council. At the time, they did preserve apostolic succession because their bishops were validly ordained (they started as Catholics, after all). A word of caution here: I’m very much over-simplifying the history. It’s much more complicated than that.OK, I know this is page 2 and I’m a little late to the party here, but what is an “Old Catholic?”
Just type “old catholic” into a search engine and you’ll get plenty of history and background. The details might not be 100% reliable, but it will give you an overall history.
In modern vocabulary, “Old Catholic” refers to the group of people who began as the “Union of Utrecht” (adding some Catholics after Vat. I). As I said, it’s a complicated history.
What makes their status problematic is that they used to have valid orders in the past, but they no longer have valid ordinations. In the present day, there are some Old Catholic priests who MIGHT have valid orders (those ordained in past decades), but the more recent attempts at ordination are invalid.
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