Old Covenant

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I have been involved on a long debate in another thread about the possibility of the Old Covenant never being revoked. I wanted to get the opinions of some Traditional Catholics on this subject. I came across a very good article by Mr. John Salza on this very subject and believe it is quite good. Anyone who wants to read it, can look here:

Check out question 13:

scripturecatholic.com/misc_qa.html

So, was the Old Covenant revoked? Please discuss, and use quotes pertaining to this subject by the Church Magisterium. Thanks and God Bless!
 
The old Covenant has been abrogated, or revoked, however you want to put it. It is totally null and void. In trying to reconcile the statements of John Paul II with the Catholic faith, some have said that the old Covenant was not revoked, but fullfilled. The truth is that it was both abrogated and fulfilled, not one or the other.

Council of Florence: It [the Catholic Church] firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, **ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation. All, therefore, who after that time observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors. Therefore, it commands all who glory in the name of Christian, at whatever time, before or after baptism, to cease entirely from circumcision, since, whether or not one places hope in it, it cannot be observed at all without the loss of eternal salvation.

Pope Pius XII taught the same in Mystici Corporis Christi:

Pope Pius XII: “And first of all, by the death of our Redeemer, the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished; then the Law of Christ together with its mysteries, enactments, institutions, and sacred rites was ratified for the whole world in the blood of Jesus Christ. For, while our Divine Savior was preaching in a restricted area – He was not sent but to the sheep that were lost of the house of Israel -the Law and the Gospel were together in force; but on the gibbet of his death Jesus made void the Law with its decrees, fastened the handwriting of the Old Testament to the Cross, establishing the New Testament in His blood shed for the whole human race. “To such an extent, then,” says St. Leo the Great, speaking of the Cross of our Lord, "was there effected a transfer from the Law to the Gospel, from the Synagogue to the Church, from many sacrifices to one Victim, that, as our Lord expired, that mystical veil which shut off the innermost part of the temple and its sacred secret was rent violently from top to bottom.” (Mystici Corporis, #29).

As we progress rapidly towards a One World Church, and setting aside of doctrine, we can expect to find more and more “Catholics” who believe that the old Law “was never revoked by God”, but this is clearly contrary to what the Church teaches.**
 
The old Covenant has been abrogated, or revoked, however you want to put it. It is totally null and void. In trying to reconcile the statements of John Paul II with the Catholic faith, some have said that the old Covenant was not revoked, but fullfilled. The truth is that it was both abrogated and fulfilled, not one or the other.

Council of Florence: It [the Catholic Church] firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation. All, therefore, who after that time observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors. Therefore, it commands all who glory in the name of Christian, at whatever time, before or after baptism, to cease entirely from circumcision, since, whether or not one places hope in it, it cannot be observed at all without the loss of eternal salvation.

Pope Pius XII taught the same in Mystici Corporis Christi:

Pope Pius XII: “And first of all, by the death of our Redeemer, the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished; then the Law of Christ together with its mysteries, enactments, institutions, and sacred rites was ratified for the whole world in the blood of Jesus Christ. For, while our Divine Savior was preaching in a restricted area – He was not sent but to the sheep that were lost of the house of Israel -the Law and the Gospel were together in force; but on the gibbet of his death Jesus made void the Law with its decrees, fastened the handwriting of the Old Testament to the Cross, establishing the New Testament in His blood shed for the whole human race. “To such an extent, then,” says St. Leo the Great, speaking of the Cross of our Lord, "was there effected a transfer from the Law to the Gospel, from the Synagogue to the Church, from many sacrifices to one Victim, that, as our Lord expired, that mystical veil which shut off the innermost part of the temple and its sacred secret was rent violently from top to bottom.” (Mystici Corporis, #29).

As we progress rapidly towards a One World Church, and setting aside of doctrine, we can expect to find more and more “Catholics” who believe that the old Law “was never revoked by God”, but this is clearly contrary to what the Church teaches.

Thank you for taking to the time to respond. I used both of these quotes as well as a quote from Pope Benedict XIV in that thread, and people accused me of taking them out of context and misinterpretaing them. One poster even accused me of being on my way to becoming a cafeteria Catholic, because I rejected a paragraph in the CCC, and quotes by Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI. I was largely alone in trying to refute the prevailing opinion that the Old Covenant was never revoked. Its nice to hear opinions from Catholics that adhere to what was once believed.
 
I really wouldn’t know one way or the other, but it seems to me that the both John Paul II and Benedict XVI having the authority to teach what those two documents cited are saying must be seeing or understanding something other than what you guys are claiming. Where does that leave the matter? :confused:
 
I really wouldn’t know one way or the other, but it seems to me that the both John Paul II and Benedict XVI having the authority to teach what those two documents cited are saying must be seeing or understanding something other than what you guys are claiming. Where does that leave the matter? :confused:

Pope Benedict XVI --is quite clear below.

zenit.org/article-15542?l=english

By their mere existence, the Twelve – called from different backgrounds – have become a summons to all Israel to conversion and to allow themselves to be reunited in a new covenant, full and perfect accomplishment of the old. By entrusting to them the task of celebrating his memorial in the Supper, before his passion, Jesus shows that he wanted to transfer to the entire community, in the person of its heads, the commandment of being a sign and instrument of the eschatological assembly begun by him.
 
This is what I have seen happen over the years. John Paul II would say something, or do something, that appeared to be rank heresy. The Tradionalists would rise up and defend the faith, while the “conservatives” would try to find a way to reconcile the appearant heresy with what the Church has always taught. The conservatives knew full well that the surface meaning, or the particular actions, seemed heretical, but they would twist and contort the words and/or action and claim that what the Pope did or said actually corresponds to what the Church has always taught.

But, after a few years, a new group of Catholics would emerge that did not know what the Church had always taught. They would read these words of the Pope and conclude the obvious. They would accept the obvious surface meaning of what was said, and thus fall into error.

This is what has happed with respect to the validity of the Old Covenant. The so called “conservatives” would always try to twist John Paul II’s words to mean what they did not mean, so that they could be reconciled with the infallible teaching of the Church. But now a new generation has come of age who does not know what the Church has always taught. These accept the surface meaning of what is said, and thus they are now in error.

The Pope does have authority to teach, but he has no right to teach the contrary of what the Church teaches.

POPE ADRIAN VI (1522-1523) “If by the Roman Church you mean its head or pontiff, it is beyond question that he can error even in matters touching the faith. He does this when he teaches heresy by his own judgment or decretal. In truth, many Roman pontiffs were heretics. The last of them was Pope John XXII (1316-1334).” (Quaest. in IV Sententiam).

POPE ADRIAN: "After his death [Pope] Honorius was anathematized by the Eastern Church. We must remember that he was accused of heresy, a crime which legitimizes the resistance of inferiors to superiors, together with the rejection of their pernicious doctrines. (Allocution III, Lect. In Conc. VIII, act. VII)

We must hold fast to what the Church has always taught. We have no guarantees that the Pope will not fall into heresy. But we do have the guarantee that what the Church has always taught is true.

POPE PAUL IV: *"In assessing Our duty and the situation now prevailing, We have been weighed upon by the thought that a matter of this kind * is so grave and so dangerous that the Roman Pontiff, who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fulness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith. Remembering also that, where danger is greater, it must more fully and more diligently be counteracted, We have been concerned lest false prophets or others, even if they have only secular jurisdiction, should wretchedly ensnare the souls of the simple, and drag with them into perdition, destruction and damnation countless peoples committed to their care and rule, either in spiritual or in temporal matters; and We have been concerned also lest it may befall Us to see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by the prophet Daniel, in the holy place. In view of this, Our desire has been to fulfil our Pastoral duty, insofar as, with the help of God, We are able, so as to arrest the foxes who are occupying themselves in the destruction of the vineyard of the Lord and to keep the wolves from the sheepfolds, lest We seem to be dumb watchdogs that cannot bark and lest We perish with the wicked husbandman and be compared with the hireling"(Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio ).

The Pope is supposed to be the guardian of the faith. If he denies the faith and teaches another gospel, let him be anathema. I hope and pray that our new Pope - who is doing so much good - does not believe that the old Covenant “has never been revoked by God”, since that is formal heresy… and, due to his education, ignorance will not excuse.**
 
Reading through Dr. Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma today I found a good, Traditional answer that goes into this very subject. I thought it would be good to quote and will help further this discussion. Here it is from pg. 292:

Book Four: The Doctrine of God the Sanctifier

Part 2: The Church

Chapter 3: The Internal Constitution of the Church
  1. Christ and the Church
  2. Founder of the Church - Christ founded the Church (De fide.)
Part b.) On the Cross, Christ consummated the building of the Church. The Old Covenant ceased and the New Covenant sealed with the blood of Christ began. The Fathers and theologians see in the flowing forth of the bloood and water from the opened side of Jesus a symbol the emergence of the Church.
 
The old Covenant has been abrogated, or revoked, however you want to put it. It is totally null and void. In trying to reconcile the statements of John Paul II with the Catholic faith, some have said that the old Covenant was not revoked, but fullfilled. The truth is that it was both abrogated and fulfilled, not one or the other.

Council of Florence: It [the Catholic Church] firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation. All, therefore, who after that time observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors. Therefore, it commands all who glory in the name of Christian, at whatever time, before or after baptism, to cease entirely from circumcision, since, whether or not one places hope in it, it cannot be observed at all without the loss of eternal salvation.

From your quote (esp. the bold part) of the Council of Florence (in post #2), it would appear that anyone who is circumcised is going to hell.

I think this just illustrates the danger of pulling quotes out of context.
 
It seems that if one agrees with the statements of a particular pope, they are “Magisterial”. If not, they are “Heretical”.

It’s all very confusing. :confused:
 
It seems that if one agrees with the statements of a particular pope, they are “Magisterial”. If not, they are “Heretical”.

It’s all very confusing. :confused:
You raise a good point, and I understand that it can seem confusion in this day of apostasy.

Normally, the Popes do not teach what has been formally condemned by the Church. They “hold fast to Tradition” and condemn the contrary. Unfortunately, that has not been the case for the past several decades.

The Popes swear, in the Papal Coronation Oath, that he will hold to what has been delivered to him and change nothing. Here’s a link to the Oath. stjosephschurch.net/oath.htm

We live in a difficult day. Interestingly, our day was predicted to a T by a lot of the saints. In fact, many prophecies even stated that the crisis they discussed would take place in the 20th century, and at least one (Our Lady of Good Success), said it would take place “in the second half of the 20th century”.

If you want to know the truth simply read anything the Popes wrote before 1958. They all taught exactly the same thing and there is no question what it was. That is the answer.

And one more thing to keep in mind is that a lot of the saints actually desired to live in this day of apostasy so that they could prove their faithfulness to God in very difficult times. They were not given the opportunity to live in these trying times, as they desired, but you and I were. Therefore, let us make the most of it by remaining faithful to what the Church has always taught, and turn a deaf ear to the novelties that are destroying the Church.

And if we are not exactly sure what the Church has always taught, simply read what the Popes wrote before 1958. There you will not find mention of bulding a “civilization of love” with “all the great religions of the world”; nor will you hear the Pope praise heretics such as Martin Luther. No. In those days the truth was clearly taught and the heretics were condemned. May those day return. In the meantime, let us remain faithful.
 
=Pax et Caritas;3066055]
The Popes swear, in the Papal Coronation Oath, that he will hold to what has been delivered to him and change nothing. Here’s a link to the Oath. stjosephschurch.net/oath.htm
Wasn’t the Papal Coronation Oath abolished by Pope Paul VI or was it John Paul?
 
Question regarding this.
I had an interesting convo with a rather lost Catholic friend of mine. She is attending a Protestant church that is telling her that we, as Christians, are still bound to the Old Covenant laws as well as the new ones. I told her that this was not true.
She asked me that since I veil in Church I am holding to the old laws, and am, therefore, in violation of the Church’s teachings. I reminded her that St. Paul told us that women should cover their glory, etc… and she stated that it came from custom, which came from the old law.

Can anyone help me out with this (if this question even makes sense)?
 
It seems that if one agrees with the statements of a particular pope, they are “Magisterial”. If not, they are “Heretical”.

It’s all very confusing. :confused:
No doubt. In the same way, if they agree with the doctrine, it is doctrinal development. If not, it is departure from tradition.

For those that think this is a complete deparure with not development leading up to it, I would like to point out one reason to believe it is a development, Namely, that we had already decided not to kill or persecute those of the Jewish faith, so there already was a deepening of the relationship between Christians and Jews.
 
No doubt. In the same way, if they agree with the doctrine, it is doctrinal development. If not, it is departure from tradition.

For those that think this is a complete deparure with not development leading up to it, I would like to point out one reason to believe it is a development, Namely, that we had already decided not to kill or persecute those of the Jewish faith, so there already was a deepening of the relationship between Christians and Jews.
Are you saying that you believe the teaching that the Old Covenant is null and void (which was taught first in the bible and then consistently up to and uncluding Pope Pius XII), has now “developed” into the teaching that the Old Covenant is not null and void?

If that is what you are saying, this is my question to you: If that is doctrinal developement, what is evolution of doctrine?
 
Are you saying that you believe the teaching that the Old Covenant is null and void (which was taught first in the bible and then consistently up to and uncluding Pope Pius XII), has now “developed” into the teaching that the Old Covenant is not null and void?

If that is what you are saying, this is my question to you: If that is doctrinal developement, what is evolution of doctrine?
What I said was that at one time, including the time of some of your quotes, practices were acceptable based on doctrine that are now considered wrong. if memory serves correct, the Spanish Inquisition was targeted primarily and Jewish converts. Since none of this occurred under Pope Pius XII, it is reasonable to say that at one thing had changed.
 
What I said was that at one time, including the time of some of your quotes, practices were acceptable based on doctrine that are now considered wrong. if memory serves correct, the Spanish Inquisition was targeted primarily and Jewish converts. Since none of this occurred under Pope Pius XII, it is reasonable to say that at one thing had changed.
Jews still need to convert to be saved. This has never changed. The only document you’ll ever find stating otherwise was published by the USCCB website without being signed by the Bishops, and then taken off the site due to its apparent heresy. On another note most of those who claim devolopment of doctrine have never read the author of that very idea: Cardinal Newman. In fact most traditional Catholics I know love Cardinal Newman and his idea of doctrinal devolopment. Most liberals however take it too far, and believe it means evolution, which it so clearly doesn’t. You can’t argue Old Covenant = revoked to Old Covenant = never revoked is a devolpment. That is the very definition of an evolution.
 
Jews still need to convert to be saved. This has never changed.
I agree. I do not think many theologians (and no popes) have ever said otherwise. The only thing I ever said was that something has changed.

I do not know if it is relevant, but there is a third possibility. that would be that the terms are different. Revoked as a means of salvation, I understand. Revoked in the since that God rescinds His promises, I find difficult to reconcile with the nature of God. There are simply too many times in the Old Testament where teh covenant with Abraham and David are said to be everlasting.
 
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