Old form of Mass attracts new generation

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And how, pray tell, does one know “what God prefers” when it comes to “style of worship”?

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I never claimed to know precisely “what God prefers”, though I am pointing out that our personal preferences should not be placed above due reverence for God.

If you don’t like it; offer it up.

Also, keep in mind the greatest and first commandment:
35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘**Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. **39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
 
It is okay that the “new generation” is attracted to the EF. (Much like, as you say, you are attracted to sin.)

But when I say I prefer the OF, well, now that’s a problem.
Haha I obviously didn’t mean that, and you really should be careful comparing the allure of the EF to that of sin, seeing as they are diametrically opposed to each other. I will admit it was a poor example, but it does highlight the complexity of the issue.

To simplify things a tad, I think it boils down to this; which form of the Liturgy is objectively more reverential and pleasing to God.

Using our God given gift of human reason, I think we can determine with confidence which one of these Rites is more esteemed by the Church (and ultimately more pleasing to God), but we should probably save that for another thread.

I leave you with this quote from Bl. John Paul II:
We address especially the young people: In an epoch when in some areas, as you know, the Latin language and the human values are less appreciated, you must joyfully accept the patrimony of the language which the Church holds in high esteem and must, with energy, make it fruitful. The well-known words of Cicero, ‘It is not so much excellent to know Latin, as it is a shame not to know it’ in a certain sense are directed to you. …We exhort you all to lift up high the torch of Latin which is even today a bond of unity among peoples of all nations” (Bl. John Paul II, Allocution ‘Libenter vos salutamus’, 27 November 1978: AAS 71 [1979], pp. 44-46).
 
And how, pray tell, does one know “what God prefers” when it comes to “style of worship”?
It’s extremely simple: we listen to the Church. Given the authority to bind and loose on earth, she speaks with the authority of God to His people. Therefore, when authoritative Church documents specify certain preferences and guidelines for celebrating liturgy, we cannot just ignore or pooh-pooh them, we are bound by obedience to listen.
 
It’s extremely simple: we listen to the Church. Given the authority to bind and loose on earth, she speaks with the authority of God to His people. Therefore, when authoritative Church documents specify certain preferences and guidelines for celebrating liturgy, we cannot just ignore or pooh-pooh them, we are bound by obedience to listen.
That there are instances where the Church speaks with the authority of God, in the sense that I think you mean it, sure. That there are documents which tells us which style of worship God prefers, or that He prefers the EF to the OF or any other form which ever existed or will ever exist, nah, I’m not buying that tonight.

I’ll leave it at that we obviously disagree. 🙂

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That there are instances where the Church speaks with the authority of God, in the sense that I think you mean it, sure. That there are documents which tells us which style of worship God prefers, or that He prefers the EF to the OF or any other form which ever existed or will ever exist, nah, I’m not buying that tonight.

I’ll leave it at that we obviously disagree. 🙂
Pope St. Pius V’s decree, Quo Primum, promulgated and codified the Traditional Latin Mass, (it’s also protected by the Church’s Law of Immemorial Custom).

You should also consider that two very prominent modern day saints (St. Pio and St. Josemaria) both of whom were priests, both sought Vatican approval to practice the TLM (this was before Summorum Pontificum.

Quite telling, if you ask me.
 
See, to me this is the problem (not aiming this at you directly, but at the sentiment in general); we seem to care too much about what we prefer, when it’s not about what we prefer; it’s about what God prefers.

This sentiment (egalitarian in its nature) has pervaded the Churches across the West, and is perhaps the only conceivable explanation for the sterile catechesis and liturgical abuses so prevalent today. It seems we have thrown God overboard, and are now modeling our style of worship around what people prefer, what people can appreciate – when its not about that. The Mass in the vernacular appears to be at the very heart of this issue, as its very application is socio-cultural, (i.e. directed solely toward the “the people”). After the 60’s when these liturgical changes took place, many western churches seemed to had lost a great sense of the mystical. Our faith in the mysterious and spiritual aspect of our defining Catholic identity was diminished and instead we turned to the “reliability” of modern conventions applicable to the times and able to suit the dialect of the masses.

The irony is this; in an attempt at making the Mass appear less mysterious, it allowed it to become driven by peoples preference, and just like a spoiled child disregards its parents love, so to have many disregarded their faith.

Cardinal Ranjith explains the issue in brief.

The day the Church abandons her universal tongue [Latin] is the day before she returns to the catacombs.”. – Venerable Pope Pius XII
The first problem with this argument is that many of the people who attend the Latin Mass “prefer” the Latin Mass. In fact, they love it and long for it, and if they can’t attend, they pine for it.

In fact, I have yet to meet up with anyone, either in real-life, or on CAF, who attends the Latin Mass even though they dislike it because they are convinced that it’s what God prefers and they are just being obedient.

The second problem with this argument is the statement, "The Mass in the vernacular appears to be at the very heart of this issue, as its very application is socio-cultural, (i.e. directed solely toward the “the people”). This isn’t true. This isn’t what the Catholic Church teaches about the OF Mass (which is where we see the vernacular used). If you’re just talking about the physical world, yes, in the OF Mass, the priest faces the people. But the OF Mass, either in Latin or vernacular, is definitely not about the people and our “preferences.” I just skimmed through the section of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and I’m not even going to try to summarize the teachings about the Mass, but it’s definitely more than what you are implying.

Do you think that the OF Mass in Latin is more “what God prefers” than the OF Mass in the vernacular?" Honestly, what’s the difference? They are human languages. Latin is not a heavenly language. I work in a microbiology lab, and almost every bacteria has a Latin name. It’s just another language, the “traditional language” of the Church, but not because it is holy, but because it’s the way things happened in history.

The third problem is, IMO, you are assuming that the Latin Mass is “mysterious and spiritual,” while the vernacular Mass is “not mysterious and spiritual.” This is purely subjective. IMO, what you are doing is what the Hollywood stars do–placing the emphasis on mysterious and spiritual “experiences” instead of on Christ and faith.

It is not the trappings of the Mass that are the “mystery” of Christianity, but rather, Christianity itself, and Our Great Founder, Jesus Christ,is the Mystery. Christianity is “mysterious and spiritual” no matter what our surroundings, what kind of music, what kind of language, etc. In fact, in this day and age, it may well be that the simpler Mass will be more effective in leading people to Christ. (In fact, the Holy Father, Pope Francis, said something to this effect at WYD.) There are lots of “mysterious and spiritual” experiences that modern people can participate in, and they have nothing to do with Jesus. We need to be careful to remember that our Masses should provide people with an opportunity to meet Jesus, Truly Present, and receive Him–THAT is the mystery and spirituality.

The fourth problem with this post–and this is a big problem!–is that you are implying that the Church has given us a Mass that is “what we prefer” and that this Mass “isn’t what God prefers”.

Do you really believe that Holy Mother Church “caved” and gave a bunch of whining children what they prefer? Do you really believe that Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, and all the other amazing clergy who are the leaders of the Church would allow the vernacular Mass to continue throughout the world if they know that “God prefers Latin, not vernacular.” Do you really think they let us continue to speak in our own languages while God is unhappy with our offering of praise and worship?
 
Pope St. Pius V’s decree, Quo Primum, promulgated and codified the Traditional Latin Mass, (it’s also protected by the Church’s Law of Immemorial Custom).

You should also consider that two very prominent modern day saints (St. Pio and St. Josemaria) both of whom were priests, both sought Vatican approval to practice the TLM (this was before Summorum Pontificum.
Once again, Greg, misinformation running amuck.

Please consider. Regarding St. Pio and his alleged petition to the Vatican, it’s a moot point, since the first typical edition of the Mass of Paul VI was not promulgated until April 3 1969 (vatican.va/holy_father/pa…omanum_en.html) and **St Pio died on Sept 23, 1968. **

Another point of clarification-- St. Josemaria did begin saying the new rite of the Mass when it became normative to do so. But given his advanced age and very poor eyesight, he found it extraordinarily difficult to make the change despite his best efforts. One of his associates, without the knowledge of St. Josemaria, went to the appropriate Vatican authorities to get permission for him to keep saying the Mass he’d been saying since his ordination in 1925.** While he would never have sought it on his own initiative, when it was presented to him**, St. Josemaria gratefully accepted the permission.

In both instances, you are falsely presenting two saints of the church in a light that solely intends to show a preference for the TLM that they never held.

With regard to Quo Primum, which trads love to misconstrue to back up their position, the form of mass is disciplinary, subject to change. This has been discussed many times on CAF, so you may want to do some searching before continuing in this error. Further, no pope may bind another pope in perpetuity.
 
Haha I obviously didn’t mean that, and you really should be careful comparing the allure of the EF to that of sin, seeing as they are diametrically opposed to each other. I will admit it was a poor example, but it does highlight the complexity of the issue.
Ha Ha. I didn’t. You did.

I was talking about the words “attracts” and “prefers.” Then for some reason YOU brought up sin and how you are attracted to it. 🤷 And of course that people that attend the EF, don’t prefer it. They are simply attracted to it. :rolleyes:
To simplify things a tad, I think it boils down to this; which form of the Liturgy is objectively more reverential and pleasing to God.
And in your opinion, the EF is more pleasing to God. Got it. Doesn’t make it right. Just your opinion.

It boils down to the fact that the Church in Her wisdom offers more than one form of the Mass. As members of the Church, we have the option to choose one of those available forms. We can attend the Mass we prefer.
**Using our God given gift of human reason, I think we can determine with confidence which one of these Rites is more esteemed by the Church **(and ultimately more pleasing to God), but we should probably save that for another thread.
I leave you with this quote from Bl. John Paul II:
Yes, I would leave that conversation for another thread. Why? Because you should know better.
 
Once again, Greg, misinformation running amuck.

Please consider. Regarding St. Pio and his alleged petition to the Vatican, it’s a moot point, since the first typical edition of the Mass of Paul VI was not promulgated until April 3 1969 (vatican.va/holy_father/pa…omanum_en.html) and **St Pio died on Sept 23, 1968. **

Another point of clarification-- St. Josemaria did begin saying the new rite of the Mass when it became normative to do so. But given his advanced age and very poor eyesight, he found it extraordinarily difficult to make the change despite his best efforts. One of his associates, without the knowledge of St. Josemaria, went to the appropriate Vatican authorities to get permission for him to keep saying the Mass he’d been saying since his ordination in 1925.** While he would never have sought it on his own initiative, when it was presented to him**, St. Josemaria gratefully accepted the permission.

In both instances, you are falsely presenting two saints of the church in a light that solely intends to show a preference for the TLM that they never held.
I’m 100% with you on Quo Primum, Sirach but I think you’ve forgotten the **first **Mass of Pope Paul VI, promulgated in November of 1964.

It was in response to *that *Mass that St. Pio got permission to continue saying the Missal of 1962, but only in private. There is actually video of him on Youtube somewhere, saying the 1964 Missal. A rare glimpse into a missal that was in effect for only a few years.

So that story is not a fabrication, at least.
 
P.S. I don’t think it’s scandalous that some people who are now saints had a strong preference for the TLM. It’s hardly surprising, if for no other reason that people do not like radical change. What is edifying is that they obeyed even if it broke their heart.
 
I’m 100% with you on Quo Primum, Sirach but I think you’ve forgotten the **first **Mass of Pope Paul VI, promulgated in November of 1964.

It was in response to *that *Mass that St. Pio got permission to continue saying the Missal of 1962, but only in private. There is actually video of him on Youtube somewhere, saying the 1964 Missal. A rare glimpse into a missal that was in effect for only a few years.
I would like to see a source for this, Rich, since I have seen in several sites that…

Although announced in 1969, it wasn’t until 1970 that the first edition of the *Novus Ordo Roman Missal *appeared, but only in Latin. Also introduced in 1970 were the three additional Eucharistic Prayers for the 1966 Sacramentary.

You are probably correct that 1964 was the date he promulgated it, yet it was unavailable for use until much later. I’ll need to check further also. It still paints a portrait of St. Pio as being disobedient, preferring his own way of celebration. In reality, it may possibly be a situation such as St. Escriva’s, where he had physical difficulty making the transition due to failing health. NOT because he preferred the TLM.
 
With regard to Quo Primum, which trads love to misconstrue to back up their position, the form of mass is disciplinary, subject to change. This has been discussed many times on CAF, so you may want to do some searching before continuing in this error. Further, no pope may bind another pope in perpetuity.
But theoretically the Popes are equal as well. Or can one claim that Pope Paul had more power than St. Peter and therefore he could scrap the Mass altogether, if it’s only a discipline as you state? Of course not, but the Mass should be recognizeable if the substance is to be believed to be the same. Lex orandi, lex credendi. We should be looking for similarities in the forms, not differences.

That said, Quo Primum merely clarified the Council of Trent which protected the Roman Canon and tried to standardize the Mass for everyone. Same language, same missal. Some exceptions were allowed, yes, but those did not violate the decrees of that council. Vatican II went a little further with those exceptions but certainly -]wanted to preserve/-] commanded Latin in the liturgy. The bishops overwhelmingly voted for it and that was signed by the Pope.
 
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ProVobis:
the Mass should be recognizeable if the substance is to be believed to be the same. Lex orandi, lex credendi. We should be looking for similarities in the forms, not differences.

That said, Quo Primum merely clarified the Council of Trent which protected the Roman Canon and tried to standardize the Mass for everyone. Same language, same missal. Some exceptions were allowed, yes, but those did not violate the decrees of that council. Vatican II went a little further with those exceptions but certainly -i]wanted to preserve/-] commanded Latin in the liturgy.
I think you are misreading me. By disciplinary it is not meant that its essence may change – of course, it cannot. But the manner of celebration with its prayers, vernacular, and other ‘disciplinary’ forms of celebration may change.

You never give up the latin agenda, do you, PV? Do you not believe that in over 50 years, ONE of the pope could have made it mandatory, if it were true that the Church commands it?
 
I would like to see a source for this, Rich, since I have seen in several sites that…

Although announced in 1969, it wasn’t until 1970 that the first edition of the *Novus Ordo Roman Missal *appeared, but only in Latin. Also introduced in 1970 were the three additional Eucharistic Prayers for the 1966 Sacramentary.

You are probably correct that 1964 was the date he promulgated it, yet it was unavailable for use until much later. I’ll need to check further also. It still paints a portrait of St. Pio as being disobedient, preferring his own way of celebration. In reality, it may possibly be a situation such as St. Escriva’s, where he had physical difficulty making the transition due to failing health. NOT because he preferred the TLM.
Ah, let me clarify my statement further.

Pope Paul VI put out ***two different ***missals during his pontificate.

The first entered use on the first Sunday of Advent 1964 and was basically the Tridentine Mass with large portions in vernacular and changes in the rubrics.

The second is the OF/NO/Missal of 1970 that we know today.

They are both considered to be distinct liturgies, even though the former was only in use for about 5 years. Many people actually forget it even existed.

For instance, my mother-in-law in 51 years old and though she says she remembers going to the “Latin Mass” as a toddler, what she really remembers is the first Mass of Pope Paul VI.
 
… if it were true that the Church commands it?
See, if you learned a little Latin, you would immediately see that

Linguae latinae usus, salvo particulari iure, in Ritibus latinis servetur.

is in the jussive mood. Indeed it is a command.

The translation into vernacular seems to have lost that meaning/nuance of the Latin. Which demonstrates that translations are inferior to the original. I need to go no further with my argument.
 
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