Old form of Mass attracts new generation

[Sirach2]

Ah, let me clarify my statement further.

Pope Paul VI put out ***two different ***missals during his pontificate.

The first entered use on the first Sunday of Advent 1964 and was basically the Tridentine Mass with large portions in vernacular and changes in the rubrics.

The second is the OF/NO/Missal of 1970 that we know today.

They are both considered to be distinct liturgies, even though the former was only in use for about 5 years. Many people actually forget it even existed.

Ok, thanks.

Assuming therefore, that St. Pio used the 1964 missal, I viewed his last mass where he collapsed before his death. He celebrated mass facing the congregation, not Ad Orientum, as one would expect if he had been using the TLM as you claim. The video notes that he received permission to say the mass ‘sitting’ and to pray it in latin. Can we not expect that due to his severe health situation that it was a mercy to be given that permission. Why are -]trads/-] folks eager to imply that he was disobedient in preferring his own manner of celebration?

 

[ProVobis]

… if it were true that the Church commands it?

See, if you learned a little Latin, you would immediately see that

Linguae latinae usus, salvo particulari iure, in Ritibus latinis servetur.

is in the jussive mood. Indeed it is a command.

The translation into vernacular seems to have lost that meaning/nuance of the Latin. Which demonstrates that translations are inferior to the original. I need to go no further with my argument.

 

[Rich_C]

Ok, thanks.

Assuming therefore, that St. Pio used the 1964 missal, I viewed his last mass where he collapsed before his death. He celebrated mass facing the congregation, not Ad Orientum, as one would expect if he had been using the TLM as you claim. The video notes that he received permission to say the mass ‘sitting’ and to pray it in latin. Can we not expect that due to his severe health situation that it was a mercy to be given that permission. Why are -]trads/-] folks eager to imply that he was disobedient in preferring his own manner of celebration?

I already acknowledged that St. Pio said the Mass of 1964. I said a video of it was on Youtube, remember? That’s what you saw.

But I also understand that he asked for and got permission to keep saying the Latin Mass privately, sine populo, because he loved it so much.

Why would anyone imply that he was disobedient? He was a model of holiness. I’m sure if his request to say the Latin Mass had been denied, he would have accepted it, even if it broke his heart. No, he did only what his superiors allowed.

 

[Sirach2]

See, if you learned a little Latin, you would immediately see that

Linguae latinae usus, salvo particulari iure, in Ritibus latinis servetur.

is in the jussive mood. Indeed it is a command.

The translation into vernacular seems to have lost that meaning/nuance of the Latin. Which demonstrates that translations are inferior to the original. I need to go no further with my argument.

You apparently assume I should learn a little latin.
As for your argument, this is ancient and getting even older. catholicforum.fisheaters.com/Smileys/fishy/oldman.gif Are you oblivious that it is falling on deaf, and very tired ears?

 

[ProVobis]

The first entered use on the first Sunday of Advent 1964 and was basically the Tridentine Mass with large portions in vernacular and changes in the rubrics.

You’re right, we almost forget that one. And that was issued before the typical edition of 1962 was universally published. The world never did see John XXIII’s missal in its full glory, such as the haste was in dismantling it.

 

[TimothyH]

All this bantering back and forth on which type of worship God prefers, and it’s relevance to sin is humorous to me, because God himself in the person of Jesus Christ explained the relevance of worship to sin in the Sermon on the Mount.

Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you, leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift. (Matthew 5:23-24)

In ancient Israel, worship was sacrifice, and it took place at exactly one spot on earth, in the Temple in Jerusalem. Sacrifice was so important that every Jewish male was commanded to go to Jerusalem and offer sacrifice three times each year.

Jesus’ words would have shocked those who heard him speak. Nothing was more important than offering gifts of sacrifice at the temple, and for Jesus to explain that how we treat other human beings is not only more important, but is actually a prerequisite to acceptable worship, would have been a radical statement.

The fact is that the type of worship which is most pleasing to God is the worship where we recieve strength from the Eucharist and then go out into the world to utilize that strength, treating other people as we would treat Christ, and being Christ to other people. Most people go to Mass one hour per week; the other 167 hours are spent outside of Mass, in the world which God created, interacting with creation and other human beings.

King David understood that how we treat other human beings is more imporant that how we worship.

For you do not desire sacrifice or I would give it;
a burnt offering you would not accept.
My sacrifice, O God, is a contrite spirit;
a contrite, humbled heart, O God, you will not scorn.
(Psalm 51:18-19)

Paul understood that how we behave and how we treat each other is actually a form of worship, part of our mission as the priesthood of all believers:

*****I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. ***(Romans 12:1)

The whole argument about EF and OF being objectively more pleasing to God, seems to me therefor, to be a minor point. If the Eucharist is Jesus with infinite graces available to us, then we should be able to go forth and be Christ to others aside from the form of the Mass.

And that is what we will be judged on at the end of our life - not what Mass we attended but how we treated other human beings. That is the clear teaching of Christ, understood by David and Paul, that how we treat others is a prerequisite to acceptable worship.

-Tim-

 

[ProVobis]

Are you oblivious that it is falling on deaf, and very tired ears?

Maybe, but you’re still reading it.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

We do not often recall, however, that languages were not always so clearly defined. Even today, it is a not-too-well-known fact that there are from 6800 to 6900 distinct languages in the world, and that 94% of all languages are regularly spoken by just 6% of the population. It would in fact be impossible to translate Holy Scripture or, by that matter, the Roman Missal, into many (if not most) of these languages.
.

Furthermore, not all languages are clearly defined.

Sometimes you get minor variations from one area to the next, even from one village to the next. At first you can shrug that off as accent or dialect, but if the sum of those changes sees one distinct language transition into another through the intermediary of what one calls dialects, then the precise place you draw the line is arbitrary. You can find many examples of this happening in India, in Africa, in parts of Europe even.

One nice quote, and sadly I can’t remember by whom, is that a language is a dialect with an army.

 

[Rich_C]

The fact is that the type of worship which is most pleasing to God is the worship where we recieve strength from the Eucharist and then go out into the world to utilize that strength, treating other people as we would treat Christ, and being Christ to other people.
-Tim-

Many good points in there, Tim.

However, the type of worship which is most pleasing to God is the worship where His Only Begotten Son offers Himself to be immolated on the altar for our sins. Whether or not anyone in the pews receives Holy Communion afterward is secondary.

 

[ProVobis]

One nice quote, and sadly I can’t remember by whom, is that a language is a dialect with an army.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_an_army_and_navy

It might have been a different world had Hitler spoken in Spanish instead of in German.

 

[ProVobis]

In fact, in this day and age, it may well be that the simpler Mass will be more effective in leading people to Christ.

Okay, so let’s say you think the best way to do this is in English. I might say it’s best be done in Polish. Someone else may say the best way is in Korean. But these are self-serving arguments, no?

What does scripture say again about the Towel of Babel?

 

[Brendan]

You apparently assume I should learn a little latin.

I think the point is that ProVobis is not the one saying that you should learn some Latin, but that the Church is saying so in Vatican II

 

[Sirach2]

I think the point is that ProVobis is not the one saying that you should learn some Latin, but that the Church is saying so in Vatican II

Yes, I know, and I can build a sand castle with all the grains of posts that have stated this. The difficulty seems to be getting those folks to understand that the Vatican is not enforcing it, and they’ve had 50 years to do so.
Why won’t the Popes listen to them?? [catholicforum.fisheaters.com/Smileys/fishy/rules.gif](javascript:void(0)

 

[Rich_C]

Yes, I know, and I can build a sand castle with all the grains of posts that have stated this. The difficulty seems to be getting those folks to understand that the Vatican is not enforcing it, and they’ve had 50 years to do so.
Why won’t the Popes listen to them?? [catholicforum.fisheaters.com/Smileys/fishy/rules.gif](javascript:void(0)

Um, think about where this line of reasoning goes…

Not a good place, I’d say.

 

[Sirach2]

Um, think about where this line of reasoning goes…

Not a good place, I’d say.

In what way? Is it true that it has as many complaint posts as there are grains of sand? Well, almost.

 

[Rich_C]

In what way? Is it true that it has as many complaint posts as there are grains of sand? Well, almost.

Haha.

I just meant, if ignored every counsel that isn’t enforced by law, we’d be missing out on a lot of what the following God offers.

 

[ProVobis]

: The difficulty seems to be getting those folks to understand that the Vatican is not enforcing it, and they’ve had 50 years to do so.

You may have a point. So what do you suggest to enforce it? A yearly Apostolic Constitution, such as Veterum Sapientia? A council every five years to command Latin? Periodic reminders about Canon Law, especially 249? More issuance of Latin Music, such as Jubilate Deo? Seems like the truth of things being lost (or worse, manipulated) in translations goes way over everyone’s head so how can anyone even know about such enforcements you’re referring to?

 

[Sirach2]

You may have a point. So what do you suggest to enforce it? A yearly Apostolic Constitution, such as Veterum Sapientia? A council every five years to command Latin? Periodic reminders about Canon Law, especially 249? More issuance of Latin Music, such as Jubilate Deo?

I cannot tell you what will work, but I know what **doesn’**t work. “They think by much saying, they will be heard.” Sound familiar? Have you ever played the old-time phonograph where the needle got stuck in one groove and played that one line melody over and over and over? If you couldn’t get to it right away, you are tempted to break the record by the time you get to the needle.

Many will cite “repetition is the mother of learning,” but repetition, when one can do nothing about a situation, is more like the broken record that renders a person’s words ineffective - not only for that particular agenda, but also for most of what they say thereafter. People will not even read their posts after awhile.

A single drop of water that falls on the skin is harmless. But when it falls repeatedly on one part of a person’s hand, the hand will begin to pain severely. Same principle. Some of the repeated gripes that air on CAF are terrible sore spots, especially when the complaints are voiced with regard to lawful indults or practices allowed by the Church. You surely know I’m speaking truth in this regard.

You are very knowledgable and devoted, PV, and I’m not here to incite problems between us. It just seems clear that there is no way a person can demand that a priest, bishop, pope … enforce the latin they so much desire, even though it is “in the rules.” I offer to you the Serenity Prayer, “Accept the things you cannot change, change the things you CAN, and the wisdom to know the difference.” Amen.

 

[Sirach2]

As a follow-up to my previous post, Fr. Z’s opinion is usually well accepted by trads, so my words will have much less effect than his. Please listen to him and be prudent, as he asked.
Traditional, hard-identity Catholics, need to press forward and be prudent. Leave aside harsh polemics or comments about Vatican II. Stow them, at least for now. Be smart. There will be time in the future for people to sort what Vatican II means and what it doesn’t mean. But, mark my words, if you gripe about Vatican II right now, in this present environment, you could lose what you have attained.

Make some holy “lío”, as Francis would call it. Stir things up in your dioceses. But make it a* smart* and a positive ruckus.

On the other hand, traddies, conservatives, call them what you will – self-righteous debating about these imperfect labels is tedious and you know what I mean by them – seem to want to defend every wrinkle of turf they think they own. They don’t want anyone who doesn’t agree with them perfectly in the sandbox with them. They bite at those with whom they have far more in common than they have differences. That has got to stop now. The terrain is shifting quickly and we need a new approach lest we screw up and lose the good ground we have gained.
To those on the trad side of things, you are going to have to stop biting in such a nasty way at those with whom you mostly agree.

 

[Lormar]

Not to excuse bad traditional behavior, but if you have spent as much time with them as I have, you would know that there are reasons why they are the way they are. Unfortunately, I cannot cite those reasons here on CAF without incurring WWIII.

Further “mud slinging” and name-calling isn’t going to tame the lion. You will only make it more ferocious.

Genuine warmth and kindness will touch their hearts. Calling them “rad mad trads” won’t.