Old Question -- Any New Answers?

[razredge]

The ‘miracles’ at Fatima are pretty feeble–easily attributable to mass hysteria and— people’s clothes drying? And not so many cures at Lourdes these days. Why doesn’t God grow back an amputated limb? That would be a convincing miracle.

The most salient feature about Fatima and Lourdes–is that they happened so long ago. No equivalent since 1918–almost a century ago. Now we have electronic media and vastly improved medicine to document miracles, so there seem to be fewer of them and many fewer apparitions.

See, I really wonder about the veracity of the apparitions at Lourdes - it would make much more sense if it was just a hallucination or fraud as the supposed messages of Mary are not exactly astounding (and in some cases rather strange) and they seem very much a product of their time and culture.

But how do you explain the Miracle of the Sun? A lot of people there saw something, including those who went there just to ridicule what was sure to be a non-event - the fact that the witnesses saw a vision at the precise time predicted by the seers is what makes it convincing (unlike so many other supposed ‘miracles’)

 

[jacie]

We’re not in Kansas anymore, Luvya! God created the world perfect for us, and our lives were intended to be lived in the paradise of the Garden of Eden. No sickness, no hunger, no natural disasters. If we simply obeyed his commandment not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But what happened? Pretty quickly we fell to temptation and wanted control. We were not content to trust. Sin entered the world. Paradise could not be perfect anymore.

Through our sin, we brought about murder, war, injustice, as well as sickness, natural disasters and all other sources of our suffering. And so it will remain until we learn to trust in Him again and conform our lives to His will, His law. Our sin causes even the physical universe to fall off its axis, so to speak. God has a perfect plan for us to be happy, we just don’t listen very well. But he does occasionally perform miracles and cure the sick, to let us know he is present and cares for us and wants us to know Him.

Christ’s life was one of continuous miracles and healings. Yet you still do not believe. As you said, you could come face to face with Him, and still not love him. What good would miracles do for someone like you? You would still refuse to believe. You are angry and hurt. Why don’t you ask Him to cure your spiritual illness? That is what we are all most in need of, not so much the physical cures.

Our physical sufferings are actually used by Him to bring about the spiritual healing, to make us better and stronger in our faith, if only we would accept it and allow it. But our pride so often prevents us from this acceptance. The irony is, we so often prolong our sufferings through anger at God. He sometimes uses our suffering as a way of breaking down our prideful will, forcing us to have no alternative but to cry out to Him. We are little children in the midst of a temper tantrum, angry at our parents for something we have brought upon ourselves due to our refusal to listen to them. God knows this, and understands and loves us nonetheless. Please give Him a chance to show you His love and comfort.

 

[ivebeenshown]

So sorry… you have to answer that for yourself. The so called “problem of evil” is the ultimate thorn in the side of Christianity. No one has ever presented a viable argument, and never will. All the attempted responses are weak, dumb, pitiful cop-outs. Here is a collection of them: enjoy…

Thank you for that link, it is very resourceful.

 

[bigquests]

See, I really wonder about the veracity of the apparitions at Lourdes - it would make much more sense if it was just a hallucination or fraud as the supposed messages of Mary are not exactly astounding (and in some cases rather strange) and they seem very much a product of their time and culture.

But how do you explain the Miracle of the Sun? A lot of people there saw something, including those who went there just to ridicule what was sure to be a non-event - the fact that the witnesses saw a vision at the precise time predicted by the seers is what makes it convincing (unlike so many other supposed ‘miracles’)

Read more about the atmosphere at Fatima. There was a huge crowd that day, 70,000 I have read, lots of press, newsreels, and a general atmosphere of hysteria and expectancy, which would be hard to reproduce today. When later people were interviewed about what they saw, there were a lot of contradictions. Many saw nothing, others saw a variety of phenomena. The newsreels revealed nothing. If people stare at the sun, which is not recommended btw, they will start seeing a lot of things, including whirling.

Read up about mass hysteria, which can be everywhere and is relatively common. Especially in the schools, one student or a small group may bet an ‘illness’. soon the entire school is sick. Then comes the newspapers, reporting E coli, salmonella, an outbreak! Then the public health officials become involved with a massive search for the culprit. Then nothing is found, and interviews of the original sufferers disclose that one or another “thought” that they were ill. Sometimes this is deliberate, as a sort of lark.

There were also a lot of ‘cures’ at Fatima. And documentation of before or after? Anyone try to do so? Did any medical sources publish the Fatima ‘miracles’ in any juried scientific publication?

Is Lourdes still producing a lot of medical miracles? My impression is that it isn’t. Any documentation? What about the famous shrine of OL of Walsingham, very popular in the Middle Ages? Is it still producting a lot of cures, as it was alleged to have done then? If not, why not?

It really doesn’t matter if “atheistic” bystanders “convert” on the basis of this phenomenon, any more than it would in the usual conversion experience.

Once again, a miracle is most persuasive if it doesn’t depend on subjective observations. What about bringing a bunch of amputees to Fatima and restore all their limbs at once? Get the presses to take footage of that before and after. That’s never been done!

 

[ivebeenshown]

I suppose it comes down to reconciling JUSTICE and MERCY.

I believe it is accurate to say that in Catholic theology, all of the suffering we experience is an effect of original justice – it is deserved because of original sin. Therefore any divine intervention to reduce suffering would be mercy… so is mercy in conflict with justice?

 

[William_of_Ware]

Getting back to the OP, why doesn’t God cure amputees and other things we know won’t change?

But isn’t that argument question begging? how would you know that there are no cases of amputees that are cured?

Even if we concede the claim, what does that prove? that god does not heal amputees, period. It does not follow that there are no miracles at all or that god is evil.

putting that aside, the claim seems to be false as there are purported cases of amputees being healed, the miracle of calanda, for example.

Hope that helps.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Now here the thing, Those old questions have been answered. You may not like the answer, but the answer has been given. So to the OP and any one else that is a self described atheist or agnostic I ask do you have any new questions?

Insanity is defined and doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That would include asking the same question over and over to the same people and expecting a different answer.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Insanity is defined and doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That would include asking the same question over and over to the same people and expecting a different answer.

I’m not discouraging or encouraging the continuation of exploration of this question, but I did want to comment on the above quote. It’s not the definition of insanity and doing the same thing over and over again can produce different results. Whether or not it is practical for a given scenario is another conversation.There are practical scenarios for repitition of action and examination of the results.

 

[razredge]

But isn’t that argument question begging? how would you know that there are no cases of amputees that are cured?

Even if we concede the claim, what does that prove? that god does not heal amputees, period. It does not follow that there are no miracles at all or that god is evil.

Please show us your Church approved (or otherwise well documented) cases of amputees being healed

It suggests that the other supposed cases of supernatural intervention in healing other afflictions are nothing more than the result of natural causes or medical treatment, as there are no cases where naturalistic reasons aren’t plausible (ie unlike regeneration of a limb).

 

[joshrp]

I just read something on CAF awhile ago which reminded me of the age-old question, “Why doesn’t God heal amputees?” It got me thinking and googling. Now I know amputees aren’t sick, so that answer won’t cut it. I have yet to read a good answer for this and wondered if anyone here has something that makes sense?

There might be ways to produce new limbs from adult stem cells. I heard of a man who got a new esophagus produced entirely from adult stem cells. No human embryos required. Who knows what we will be able to do? We just have to make sure that we do not separate science from morality.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Here’s the Wikipedia entry on the Miracle of Calanda, which I did not know about before reading this thread. It seems to be a very well-attested miracle. There are some obvious problems with the skeptoid account - have you ever tried strapping your leg up behind your thigh in such a way that it can’t be seen? Do you have any idea how excruciating it is? I tried it once for a high-school play and couldn’t stand it for more than about 10 minutes. I can’t imagine someone (especially a strapping young man, who could find more appealing employment than suffering agony for the sake of a few coins) spending years like that, just for the opportunity to beg (why not just say you’re BLIND?) I later read that the silent film actor Lon Chaney Sr. did the same thing for a role and suffered nerve damage that troubled him for the rest of his life. Imagine doing the same thing in front of the same townspeople for years without them catching on.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Calanda

So, there would appear to be good, substantiated evidence that on at least one occasion, through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, God healed an amputee.

 

[William_of_Ware]

Please show us your Church approved (or otherwise well documented) cases of amputees being healed

It suggests that the other supposed cases of supernatural intervention in healing other afflictions are nothing more than the result of natural causes or medical treatment, as there are no cases where naturalistic reasons aren’t plausible (ie unlike regeneration of a limb).

I mentioned Calanda, didn’t I? yes, I saw your link earlier.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I’m not discouraging or encouraging the continuation of exploration of this question, but I did want to comment on the above quote. It’s not the definition of insanity and doing the same thing over and over again can produce different results. Whether or not it is practical for a given scenario is another conversation.There are practical scenarios for repitition of action and examination of the results.

To get a different result you have to change something about scenario. the same action over and over again gives the same result over and over again.

No matter how many times you add 2+2 you will always get 4.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

To get a different result you have to change something about scenario. the same action over and over again gives the same result over and over again.

Performing the same action over and over can have cumulative effects on the other things involved in the action. One could consider this as a tiny change in the scenario. But depending on the system the impacts of these tiny changes may only be discovered through repeating the same action until there is a change in result. A measurement of quality (reliability) in some systems is how many times an object can be subjected to an action before it reaches failure. In software testing the same action may be repeated several times to discover race conditions that cause occasional differences in the results of repeated actions.

In a forum in which people come, go, and interact with each other asking the same question over time can also yield different results (I would be surprised if it didn’t). People too are influenced by cumulative effects along with other things (such as being influenced by how one’s day went).These might all be considered small changes in the scenario but still changes non the less.

It’s not always an advisable path for getting to results, but it’s not one that is always found to be ineffective.

No matter how many times you add 2+2 you will always get 4.

No disagreement from me on that. But though point that I was emphasizing was that repeated actions can have different results.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Performing the same action over and over can have cumulative effects on the other things involved in the action. One could consider this as a tiny change in the scenario. But depending on the system the impacts of these tiny changes may only be discovered through repeating the same action until there is a change in result. A measurement of quality (reliability) in some systems is how many times an object can be subjected to an action before it reaches failure. In software testing the same action may be repeated several times to discover race conditions that cause occasional differences in the results of repeated actions.

In a forum in which people come, go, and interact with each other asking the same question over time can also yield different results (I would be surprised if it didn’t). People too are influenced by cumulative effects along with other things (such as being influenced by how one’s day went).These might all be considered small changes in the scenario but still changes non the less.

It’s not always an advisable path for getting to results, but it’s not one that is always found to be ineffective.

No disagreement from me on that. But though point that I was emphasizing was that repeated actions can have different results.

I a person of no faith ask me as a person of faith is God real I will say yes. no matter how many times he/she ask. if they ask me to prove it, I will point to the same things over and over again. if they give a sceintific reason for them i will then say, over and over again yes But what started it, the anser is God. the only thing that we cause me to give a different anser is for me to lose me faith, hence, a change in the scenario. If nothing changes, nothing changes.

 

[razredge]

.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Calanda

So, there would appear to be good, substantiated evidence that on at least one occasion, through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, God healed an amputee.

Yea, I don’t find that convincing at all - as the article itself states.

But though point that I was emphasizing was that repeated actions can have different results.

Only if the circumstances are different, doing the exact same thing, in the exact same circumstance would give the same result.

 

[William_of_Ware]

Yea, I don’t find that convincing at all - as the article itself states.

What do you find unconvincing, the Wikipedia article or the Skeptoid one? Why do you find it “unconvincing”?
Thought you were looking for “Church approved (or otherwise well documented) cases of amputees being healed”.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I a person of no faith ask me as a person of faith is God real I will say yes. no matter how many times he/she ask.

It sounds like you are fairly consistent. Not every one is.

Sometimes a person may give a consistent answer over time, other times not. People sometimes change; a person of one religious faith may at some point in life come to another religious faith or find them self with no religious faith at all. There are examples of such people in these forums. A person picks up new knowledge and ideas that influence how the person thinks and how the person responds. A person may forget information or fail to reconstruct certain memories. As a person’s thoughts, feelings, and knowledge change their answers may change.

 

[razredge]

What do you find unconvincing, the Wikipedia article or the Skeptoid one? Why do you find it “unconvincing”?
Thought you were looking for “Church approved (or otherwise well documented) cases of amputees being healed”.

Because the wiki article itself quite satisfactoril refutes the miraculous claims.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Because the wiki article itself quite satisfactoril refutes the miraculous claims.

Advancing a possible explanation is in no way the same as refuting or disproving a claim. As I said, the possible explanation advanced by skeptics itself makes no sense.

You asked for evidence, it was given. You can choose to accept it or not, but it certainly hasn’t been disproven and there appears to be good documentation.