Old Testament God

[Lapell]

But the Egyptians attempted to do worst than that. Actually, they already did a lot worst…slavery & murder. And the only thing they lost was a portion of their army and first born sons. What happened to ‘violating a zone of holiness’.
The amalekites have very likely feared being attacked and plundered. And struck first. Where they wrong? NO, they were right. The jews did attack peaceful settlements, and stole their lands. And massacred their children.

At least 2 remarks here:
1- When the Hebrews (as they were called then) came into Egypt, they were welcome then. It changed with that Pharaoh, I take it he was from another dynasty, maybe hostile to the previous dynasty, otherwise why should this Pharaoh fear that the Hebrews would join his enemies’ armies? Anyhow, it’s quite fitting then that not the whole Egyptian people would perish because the Hebrews were favoured by them… maybe from antipathy toward this one hard-ruling Pharaoh?
2- About the Hebrews having attacked other peaceful people before they were attacked by Amaleqites… which people, if I may ask? They were not in the Promised Land yet, they were on their way. The only news the Amaleqites could have had would be about the Egyptian army who perished in the sea, and they probably thought it was the Hebrews’ doing. However, they were quite quick to assume it, it seems, and they did not even have the courtesy to first have a talk with those people and see where they stand. If the Hebrews then declared war to the Amaleqites, then they would have been justified in defending themselves against the Hebrews. But there was no such declaration from the Hebrews. No wonder that the Hebrews looked at Amaleqites as sworn enemies. Wouldn’t you have felt the same thing had you been one of the Hebrews?

 

[rinnie]

I know an atheist who keeps saying “JESUS CHRIST!” as his expression.

I heard religious people saying that if you use “Oh my God” as an expression, its blasphemy. That means your grandpa blasphemed your god with his last words.

Im sure you know many Atheists, And i didnt say it was my GrandFather i said it was an Uncle of My Mothers, But no he saw that God Existed. Thats what he saw. At least thats what they believe he saw. Using the name of the Lord in vain and seeing him are 2 different things. But of course you know everything i guess you were there. huh. I still must wonder why anyone would want to talk negative about God. But i guess you didnt understand that question either.

 

[ralphinal]

Back to the origional post. TO me, there are three possibilities.

1. OT God is a Jerk. Yes, he gave Isreal every chance, but other than them, he could have cared less. Even then, he expected more from them then they could provide.
2. God expected what was possible from everyone, and punished those who chose not to follow him. The punishment was balanced by the level of repentance by the guilty. Those who repented were spared death, those who did not, were killed. He still was harsh and cold at times and seemed distant.
3. We are missing the point. God is more like choice 2, but he is more merciful than the acients understood. Remember that the ones that wrote the book were the ones He was trying to correct. Little kids always think their parents are unfair when they are punished.

 

[AgnosTheist]

At least 2 remarks here:
1- When the Hebrews (as they were called then) came into Egypt, they were welcome then. It changed with that Pharaoh, I take it he was from another dynasty, maybe hostile to the previous dynasty, otherwise why should this Pharaoh fear that the Hebrews would join his enemies’ armies? Anyhow, it’s quite fitting then that not the whole Egyptian people would perish because the Hebrews were favoured by them… maybe from antipathy toward this one hard-ruling Pharaoh?

Because the hebrews dont see themselves as egyptians. That means their loyalties are less reliable than actual egyptians.

2- About the Hebrews having attacked other peaceful people before they were attacked by Amaleqites… which people, if I may ask?

i did not say ‘before’. i merely pointed out the fact that the hebrews meant to attack and pillage peaceful nations.

No wonder that the Hebrews looked at Amaleqites as sworn enemies. Wouldn’t you have felt the same thing had you been one of the Hebrews?

Of course I would. But that doesnt mean I would agree to committing genocide.

 

[Lapell]

I think alot of the OT is in the wording too. Like when you see the NT four gospels, some show you the more human side of Jesus, some the more serious side of him. It has alot to do with the Bible and the AUthor. But we know he is a Loving GOd. But i think in the OT its more about teaching right and wrong. More dicipline. In the NT the Softer side of God. In my opinion you see a more forgiving God in the New then the Old. But its still the same message. The commandments are the same. Its just Jesus is revealed to us as Man in the NT.

Not to forget that the Jews had experienced a bitter exile and they were told it was because they hadn’t kept God’s commandments. Even then they experience that during their bitter exile in Babylon God still showed them His mercy, and somehow maybe it was more noticeable to the Jews than ever before. The school of Shammai seems not to have experienced much of this, while the school of Himmel was well-known to have experienced the exile in Babylon. Himmel’s manner was more approachable than Shammai’s most of the time. So, the exile in Babylon helped the Jews to act in an even more merciful way than ever before, closer to the way God would act…
Look at the Jews who experienced the Holocaust and survived. They are very sensitive to any injustice against other people, even non-Jews, and they want to help improve the faith of those people in a meaningful way. I think God’s mercy has reached their hearts at least to a meaningful extent. They might seem to us over-sensitive when things are said against them, but when those who wanted to absolutely get rid of them used to have the same kind of talk, it’s quite excusable, isn’t it?

 

[AgnosTheist]

I still must wonder why anyone would want to talk negative about God.

The same reason why some of your brethren would want to talk negative about Allah. They think Allah is false. And some people think that Yahweh is false. Right?

 

[rinnie]

Yeah but you know what lapell thats not what this is about. Dont get sucked in by them. Look at it this way anyone that would view GOd in a negative way is not a follower of God. We arent to question God. What they are doing is trying to take over the post and screw with People. Good People. and i not falling for iT. If im wrong i appologize but i know im not. they arent fooling me. So raphael God BLess you and dont let them get to you either. It 70 outside, the husband gets home in 2 hours, on the motorcycle we will go, and I did what God wants of me I walked away. I will now spend my time with the Blessed Mother, Jesus Christ, and the ANgels and Saints. Prayer is the best thing for me now. God be with you guys, Have a beautiful Day.

 

[rinnie]

The same reason why some of your brethren would want to talk negative about Allah. They think Allah is false. And some people think that Yahweh is false. Right?

This time you are on your own. fight with yourself im OUTTA HERE?

 

[Lapell]

Because the hebrews dont see themselves as egyptians. That means their loyalties are less reliable than actual egyptians.

i did not say ‘before’. i merely pointed out the fact that the hebrews meant to attack and pillage peaceful nations.

Of course I would. But that doesnt mean I would agree to committing genocide.

Even if they attacked the Hebrews all like one man even before they could have a frank meeting? And don’t forget one thing: it was not the 21st century A.D., but about 12 centuries B.C.! The mentalities have evolved to a certain degree since then… Don’t judge that era according to our 21st century mentality!

 

[Lapell]

But certainly not according to how the bible defines love. The infants who were murdered in the name of God surely suffered intense cruelty, rudeness, and anger. All because of a record of wrongs committed by their grandpas.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

AgnosTheist, don’t forget the mentalities have evolved since then. Jesus hadn’t appeared yet, and the hymn to Charity that you just quoted wasn’t written yet!
Look at the context of that era!!! :banghead: :hypno: :doh2: :tsktsk:

 

[AgnosTheist]

Even if they attacked the Hebrews all like one man even before they could have a frank meeting? And don’t forget one thing: it was not the 21st century A.D., but about 12 centuries B.C.! The mentalities have evolved to a certain degree since then… Don’t judge that era according to our 21st century mentality!

I would understand the Mongols razing cities. But when it is something that an alleged “God of Love” allegedly commanded, thats something that deserves criticism and rebuke.

The genocide of the amalekites and canaanites contradicts the bible’s definition of love.

 

[AgnosTheist]

zone of holiness

Valke, do you have any idea when Israel’s “Zone of Holiness” began and when it ended?

 

[Lapell]

I would understand the Mongols razing cities. But when it is something that an alleged “God of Love” allegedly commanded, thats something that deserves criticism and rebuke.

The genocide of the amalekites and canaanites contradicts the bible’s definition of love.

In those days, AgnosTheist, the Torah was quite a progress forward to God’s true love when compared to the peoples surrounding them even then!
To criticize them like you do you probably have lived many years in the course of those years, haven’t you!!

 

[Lapell]

Moreover, even among the Canaanites some wisely decided to make a covenant with the Israelites so as to not perish, and the Israelites then let them live and didn’t harm them, haven’t you read it in the OT?

 

[AgnosTheist]

In those days, AgnosTheist, the Torah was quite a progress forward to God’s true love when compared to the peoples surrounding them even then!
To criticize them like you do you probably have lived many years in the course of those years, haven’t you!!

You call Genocide as Progress???

Thats much worst than what anyone did at that time.

Moreover, even among the Canaanites some wisely decided to make a covenant with the Israelites so as to not perish, and the Israelites then let them live and didn’t harm them, haven’t you read it in the OT?

i read that God allegedly cursed the Israelites for letting some canaanites live.

 

[ralphinal]

Yeah but you know what lapell thats not what this is about. Dont get sucked in by them. Look at it this way anyone that would view GOd in a negative way is not a follower of God. We arent to question God. What they are doing is trying to take over the post and screw with People. Good People. and i not falling for iT. If im wrong i appologize but i know im not. they arent fooling me. So raphael God BLess you and dont let them get to you either. It 70 outside, the husband gets home in 2 hours, on the motorcycle we will go, and I did what God wants of me I walked away. I will now spend my time with the Blessed Mother, Jesus Christ, and the ANgels and Saints. Prayer is the best thing for me now. God be with you guys, Have a beautiful Day.

I hope you do not think that I see God in a negative light. I do not. My whole point is that God of the OT is just as merciful as God of the NT, we just miss it because we get hung up in the whole “destroy” thing.

Valke has raised a good point about the “guilt” of the ancients. Yes, they sinned, but God was faithful to them and they tended to repent after being corrected (a few never did). The important part of the message is not that the Ancient Jews sinned (as if we don’t), but that God never forgot His people and always took them back. The same can be said today.

 

[rinnie]

I hope you do not think that I see God in a negative light. I do not. My whole point is that God of the OT is just as merciful as God of the NT, we just miss it because we get hung up in the whole “destroy” thing.

Valke has raised a good point about the “guilt” of the ancients. Yes, they sinned, but God was faithful to them and they tended to repent after being corrected (a few never did). The important part of the message is not that the Ancient Jews sinned (as if we don’t), but that God never forgot His people and always took them back. The same can be said today.

Oh no Raphinal, I know you are on the up and up its the other two, I didnt want you and Lapell letting them get to you. GO and read my post again you will understand it. Good Luck,

 

[AgnosTheist]

Back to the origional post. TO me, there are three possibilities.

1. OT God is a Jerk. Yes, he gave Isreal every chance, but other than them, he could have cared less. Even then, he expected more from them then they could provide.
2. God expected what was possible from everyone, and punished those who chose not to follow him. The punishment was balanced by the level of repentance by the guilty. Those who repented were spared death, those who did not, were killed. He still was harsh and cold at times and seemed distant.
3. We are missing the point. God is more like choice 2, but he is more merciful than the acients understood. Remember that the ones that wrote the book were the ones He was trying to correct. Little kids always think their parents are unfair when they are punished.

The original post was asking how you could reconcile the cruelty of god in the OT with the NT idea that god is love. I cant see how any of your 3 points would help him.

 

[ralphinal]

The original post was asking how you could reconcile the cruelty of god in the OT with the NT idea that god is love. I cant see how any of your 3 points would help him.

Because they are focusing on actions one at a time and not upon the whole story. It is the same way today when people decide that there is no God becuase they have a prayer that they think goes unanswered.

For example, take the fact that the generation that left Egypt was made to wander around the dessert until they died and not allowed to enter the Promised Land. That really seems unfair. In fact, I would say that it is cruel to say “Here you go to the Promised Land” and then none of them make it. But, look at the whole story. They showed themselves to be not deserving. God, still being merciful, did not return them to bondage. True, they were punished, but not to the extent that they deserved.

 

[Lapell]

Moreover, their descendants did make it to the Promised Land!