Old Testament interpretation

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Was wondering how one would respond to this post from a colleague:

*<<"In honor of the upcoming NC vote to ban Gay Marriage in the state constitution, I would like to offer other causes for the religious right to fight for.

If you believe in Leviticus 18:22 (you shall not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination) as justification against gay marriage, then most of you also have to fight for the right to kill your children.

Exodus 21:17. (And he that curses his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death). 21:17 is re-emphasized in Deuteronomy, Leviticus, and Proverbs. Why don’t we believe that god meant this just as much as he meant Leviticus 18:22?">>*

The homosexual/same-sex marriage issue is easy to address. How would you respond to the last paragraph?

Thanks
M
 
This is an excellent and logical response to those relying on the first quoted scripture for their case against same-sex marriage. Most opponents are more sophisticated. catholics, for example, argue on the basis of tradition and natural law, and while i do not consider that ground in any way secure, I concede is is far more rational than scripture-alone arguments. Basically, scripture is no open to interpretation that it is pointless to ague on it alone.
 
Was wondering how one would respond to this post from a colleague:

*<<"In honor of the upcoming NC vote to ban Gay Marriage in the state constitution, I would like to offer other causes for the religious right to fight for.

If you believe in Leviticus 18:22 (you shall not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination) as justification against gay marriage, then most of you also have to fight for the right to kill your children.

Exodus 21:17. (And he that curses his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death). 21:17 is re-emphasized in Deuteronomy, Leviticus, and Proverbs. Why don’t we believe that god meant this just as much as he meant Leviticus 18:22?">>*

The homosexual/same-sex marriage issue is easy to address. How would you respond to the last paragraph?

Thanks
M
These are laws of the old covenant which God made with Israel after the Jews left Egypt. Jesus made the old covenant obsolete and replaced it with a new covenant with new rules and new laws. Christians operate under the new covenant, not the old convenant.

Among other things, the rules of the new covenant state that homosexuality cannot be true love, and is in fact a sin, and that you are not to put your son to death for disrespecting you but are to forgive him instead.

Anyone who wants to live under the old covenant can walk into any Jewish Synagogue and ask to be recieved. They will be happy to introduce you to the “Holiness code”, the 613 commandments of Leviticus 17 through 22 which includes Father’s putting their children to death for being disrespectful.

-Tim-
 
Engaging in homosexual behavior and cursing one’s parents are both violations of the Natural Law and thus intrinsically sinful behaviors. The extreme penalties indicated in the Old Testament for the guilty parties, though, were conditional, as indicated by the mercy shown by Jesus Christ to the woman caught in adultery, another offence for which execution of the guilty was indicated in the Old Testament.
 
someone once said, “look at the parts and see if they fit or not.”

Just a thought.
 
Was wondering how one would respond to this post from a colleague:

*<<"In honor of the upcoming NC vote to ban Gay Marriage in the state constitution, I would like to offer other causes for the religious right to fight for.

If you believe in Leviticus 18:22 (you shall not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination) as justification against gay marriage, then most of you also have to fight for the right to kill your children.

Exodus 21:17. (And he that curses his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death). 21:17 is re-emphasized in Deuteronomy, Leviticus, and Proverbs. Why don’t we believe that god meant this just as much as he meant Leviticus 18:22?">>*

The homosexual/same-sex marriage issue is easy to address. How would you respond to the last paragraph?

Thanks
M
Actually, there’s a related command in there that a son who (something like this) disobeys his father and mother should be put to death.

The Jewish commentary references the Talmud and says that the rabbis decided that no one could be put to death, under this commandment. They gave technical reasons that made it impossible to apply to anyone. They scrutinized these Biblical verses very carefully because they did not want to misinterpret the command in the first instance, and they didn’t want to put anybody to death unfairly (and violate the command against murder).

The commentary does not include my observation, that the purpose of this command was to deter children from disobeying and disrespecting their parents.

this command along with the positive command to honor our father and mother created what you might call “teachable moments” for children. That is how seriously they were to respect their parents, that there was a death penalty associated with serious violation of the commandment about disrespecting parents.

That goes along with the commandment about testing women suspected of adultery (in Num 5, if I recall correctly) by making them drink dirt mixed in with water. Who would want to undergo the test, etc. ?

The value of these commandments, specifically, was for their deterrent value.

Regarding the original post (OP), these are comparing two different things.

Please see my following post.
 
regarding the “original post”

First of all, Where are we? What are we talking about here?

Consider Psalm 1:

*1Blessed is the man who does not walk
in the counsel of the wicked,
Nor stand in the way
of sinners,
nor sit in company with scoffers.

2Rather, the law of the LORD* is his joy;
and on his law he meditates day and night**. NAB

Sorry, but your skeptical colleague falls in the category of a “scoffer” – someone who does not believe in God or in his commandments.

You’re not even the same ballpark as this person. In order to answer his/her question, you have SO MUCH ground to cover. I don’t think your friend is even CLOSE to understanding anything you might say. Your friend is grabbing verses and slamming them together.

Jews and Christians do not approve or advocate killing children. BUT, your colleague is putting those words in your mouth.

I don’t think this is a verbal battle that you should even take up with your colleague. If you are not much more prepared in your faith, that you ask this question, then you probably have to let it go with “we have to agree to disagree on this.”

In the simplest of terms, the two things that your colleague brought up have nothing to do with each other. Ex 21:17 is a commandment that has to do with creating a deterence to keep children from dishonoring their parents. There is no record in the Bible, to my knowledge, that any person was put to death for this reason. Even left undifferentiated in this verse, is what amount of disrespect or dishonor that would require the death penalty. It is a CLEARLY rhetorical statement in the Bible. It’s a verse for much teaching of children about their duties to their parents.

The Jewish Study Bible says that the writer of Leviticus speaks only of the occasional male-male encounter; it does not address a persistent sexual orientation. But, logically, the rule would be the same, in any case.

I can’t speak from a position of John Paul II’s Theology of the Body. The essential point of fact is that same-sex activity is misusing a reproductive capacity, and therefore is aberrent.
 
Jews and Christians do not approve or advocate killing children. BUT, your colleague is putting those words in your mouth.
This is certainly the current position, but was not the position adopted by Joshua during the Jericho genocide. I have heard nothing to explain the concurrent condemnation of such actions and the upholding of this act, except that 'it’s ok, ‘cause God said it was’. This, of course, fails to convince.
 
This is certainly the current position, but was not the position adopted by Joshua during the Jericho genocide. I have heard nothing to explain the concurrent condemnation of such actions and the upholding of this act, except that 'it’s ok, ‘cause God said it was’. This, of course, fails to convince.
I was looking at the question from the wrong direction.

I was addressing the issue of child slaying from the point of view of it as a cultic religious practice.

Duh. You’re talking about in the sense of the conquest of Canaan, and the directive of God to put all the inhabitants to death. OK, now I know what you are referring to.

The Old Testament reveals God as a God of mercy and justice. And, what we’re talking about in Joshua is the sovereignty of God and His election to have the inhabitants put to death by the sword.

We all die and we don’t know the day or the hour. 250,000 people die in the world every day, from all sorts of causes. God chose to combine the conquering of Canaan with this judgment against the idolatrous people who occupied the land. This was a special issue and judgment of God.

God had also decreed a death penalty in the Torah for various other things. It turns out, for their lack of faith and apostasy, the entire generation of Israelites that left Egypt (except for a couple) did not make it to the Promised Land.

God is the judge, not us. In particular, we don’t judge God, his decisions, or his commands.

For this to “fail to convince” is a whole separate subject. To fail to be convinced is to put a whole different spin or interpretation of who God is. This is an OLD way of looking at things. Nothing new about this.

In the book “Crossing the Threshold of Hope” his holiness the late Blessed John Paul II answered a series of questions, and to the question about people failing to come to faith in Christianity he remarked, that people – for one reason or another – do not like the way that God chose to reveal himself to mankind. I could be mistaken, but that could be the reason for people’s failure or inability to have a conviction about this. OLD NEWS. very old.

I’m reading a line-by-line commentary on the book of Romans called the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture (a series of books on the Bible by Intervarsity Press) and this general subject is discussed in the commentary on Romans Chapter 2. that’s where my reading is so far, is up to the middle of Chapter Two.

St Paul is distinguishing Christians, Jews, and Greeks. Everyone should be able to understand and know God from nature and the law of nature. The law of nature is not the law of the jungle, dog eat dog. the law of nature is the highest understanding of human relations from a philosphical point of view. We shouldn’t murder other people. We shouldn’t steal from them. We shouldn’t practice adultery. These are laws that should be obvious to us when we consider what is or should be right and wrong.

The law of Moses is a much more explicit statement of the law of nature, they are not in disagreement in any aspect or subject; it is just more explicit. Finally, the law of Christ is the most explicit and all these laws are in agreement.

For this reason, NO ONE has an “excuse” for not believing or accepting the revelation in scripture and in Jesus Christ. In other words, perhaps someone has not YET reached a place of “conviction” but they can and should get there,especially with Jesus Christ and His Church.

this was in Paul’s writing to the Romans, and expanded in the writings of the early Christian writers. A Baptist friend of mine gave me some sage advice, that we should always find ourselves agreeing with the Bible. that a Baptist way of saying what I said above.
 
God chose to combine the conquering of Canaan with this judgment against the idolatrous people who occupied the land.
Were the babies idolatrous?
In particular, we don’t judge God, his decisions, or his commands.
If any being were to command me to undertake genocide, I would be comfortable in judging the command.
I’m reading a line-by-line commentary on the book of Romans called the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture (a series of books on the Bible by Intervarsity Press) and this general subject is discussed in the commentary on Romans Chapter 2. that’s where my reading is so far, is up to the middle of Chapter Two.
St Paul is distinguishing Christians, Jews, and Greeks. Everyone should be able to understand and know God from nature and the law of nature. The law of nature is not the law of the jungle, dog eat dog. the law of nature is the highest understanding of human relations from a philosphical point of view. We shouldn’t murder other people. We shouldn’t steal from them. We shouldn’t practice adultery. These are laws that should be obvious to us when we consider what is or should be right and wrong.
The law of Moses is a much more explicit statement of the law of nature, they are not in disagreement in any aspect or subject; it is just more explicit. Finally, the law of Christ is the most explicit and all these laws are in agreement.
For this reason, NO ONE has an “excuse” for not believing or accepting the revelation in scripture and in Jesus Christ. In other words, perhaps someone has not YET reached a place of “conviction” but they can and should get there,especially with Jesus Christ and His Church.
this was in Paul’s writing to the Romans, and expanded in the writings of the early Christian writers. A Baptist friend of mine gave me some sage advice, that we should always find ourselves agreeing with the Bible. that a Baptist way of saying what I said above.
Thanks for this - an interesting insight.
 
Re: Old Testament interpretation Quote:
Originally Posted by fred conty forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*someone once said, “look at the parts and see if they fit or not.”
Just a thought.*

Any machinist in a machine shop can define “marriage” for us, as it is a term used in manufacturing. It is a mating of complementary parts
I don’t want to get explicit, but for non-fitting parts, there seems to be a great deal of fitting going on!
 
I see this as part of the Law and since Christ is the fulfilmen and end of the Law it seems doubtful that we need support our opinions about unnatural sex relations in this way. It rather creates more problems.
 
Was wondering how one would respond to this post from a colleague:

*<<"In honor of the upcoming NC vote to ban Gay Marriage in the state constitution, I would like to offer other causes for the religious right to fight for.

If you believe in Leviticus 18:22 (you shall not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination) as justification against gay marriage, then most of you also have to fight for the right to kill your children.

Exodus 21:17. (And he that curses his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death). 21:17 is re-emphasized in Deuteronomy, Leviticus, and Proverbs. Why don’t we believe that god meant this just as much as he meant Leviticus 18:22?">>*

The homosexual/same-sex marriage issue is easy to address. How would you respond to the last paragraph?

Thanks
M
Ask this colleague what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah - and why. It is clear from scripture. Completely apart from all aspects of faith or belief, nature itself ensures that only opposite sexes procreate. Why are there then two genders at all? If they are a fervent believer in evolution, ask why two genders evolved, and for what purpose. As well, ask this person to name a civilization that was founded on, or that tolerated such behavior - and survived (let alone flourished). Isn’t one. All evidence runs exactly contrary. Once you attack marriage, all bets are off. An integral part of marriage is the continuation of the species. Remove that, and species barriers are next to fall. Marry an animal - since there is then precedent that procreation is no longer a factor in “marriage.”

But, this is all Orwellian - as marriage, by definition, is of opposites.
 
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