Old Testament Law and Sacraments end with Jesus

[Publisher]

What? Dont you like my moniker?

"1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people: that you may declare his virtues, who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: "

I like your reference. It’s one of my favorite scriptures.

 

[Mannyfit75]

"1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people: that you may declare his virtues, who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: "

I like your reference. It’s one of my favorite scriptures.

I read that as during My Liturgy of the Hour…

 

[Hellisreal]

"1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people: that you may declare his virtues, who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: "

I like your reference. It’s one of my favorite scriptures.

I am happy you like that one, and happy I could make the mood lighter here a moment.

Now, back to business.

What if anything can you say about the good Dr. Blosser’s digestion of the Jesus Seminar? Good, bad or indifferent, I am curious.

 

[Subrosa]

I think I may word stuff in a way that allows you to misunderstand me time and time again. Im not saying that the law is no longer in affect, all i am saying is the obedience to the law is no longer the key to salvation but the belief in Jesus Christ being that which saves us. Jesus was the fulfillment of the law, but this event is also considered the end to the law, to merely emphasize the premise that Jesus’ death and resurrection was a complete redemption of a people that CANNOT stay under the law at all times as a result of the carnal aspect of our beings. God recognized our wickedness and understood, as He does all things, that we are a lost people as a result of the fall of Adam. Im not saying that the new covenant negates our commandment to remain under the law, im just saying that it, by grace and love from A Father whose mercies are new everyday, forgives us for our consistent inability to do so as a result of our weakness. Please dont think that i am saying that because God made His new covenant with His people that we no longer have to live under the law, but now we do it in reverence and awe of a Majestic God and because of our Fear of The Lord and not because of fear of damnation alone. I live under the law that I might advance in my pursuit of righteousness and that I can be at a place that God can use me as a vessel to win His people. Our heart needs to be His people. This, evangelism, is the one true ministry anyways. Everything we do needs to be of an example to others aiding us in the spreading of The Gospel of Christ. Loving one another was not a commandment of The Almighty for no reason. We need to have a genuine love and care for our bretheren and for those that have not found Jesus yet that we might be a blessing to them and show of Gods love through the example we set. I did not join this forum to argue or to debate doctrine guys. I love the heck out of each and every one of you and just want you to know what The Lord is laying on my heart. Please dont take anything I say as an attack because that is completely opposing of what I am actually tryin to do. I just want to reveal to those that havent found for themselves that God can and is willing to be as real in your life as He is in mine. Gods living reality can only be realized personally. You have to have a fresh encounter with God and discover for yourself how amazing He actually is. God Bless each and every one of you. I sincerely appreciate those that dont take offense to my comments but rather hear them and consider them and then comment in a mature way. I know you are all capable. I know sometimes this can be a frustrating subject because of the disagreements that reside in such a loaded thing. God Bless You all again. Sincerely
Jarred

Hi NP -

Er, I don’t want to be critical, however I just want to say something about style - USE PARAGRAPHS!

It makes reading easier.

Also, I’m waiting for an answer to my posts - 14, 15 & 16 (Or is your answer included in the above paragraph?)

God bless!
Subrosa

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

My safety is in Christ…not my church or it’s teaching body. I have “freedom” in Christ…freedom to even be wrong about many things, but it is He who sustains us…it is He that has all the answers…I can rest in this freedom I have in Christ Jesus, it frees me from any “fear” of “punishment” or “retribution”.

Interesting you separate Christ from “your church,” and do it so starkly. Since the Catholic Church is the Mystical body of Christ, we don’t have the separation, but we do have the “freedom” you speak of, and doubt it exists to the extent you suggest with the separation you insist on. And we fear no punishment or retribution from our Holy Mother the Church. The only difficulties we will face are the ones we will encounter by refusing His grace, or the means to it.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[Pax]

I think I may word stuff in a way that allows you to misunderstand me time and time again. Im not saying that the law is no longer in affect, all i am saying is the obedience to the law is no longer the key to salvation but the belief in Jesus Christ being that which saves us. Jesus was the fulfillment of the law, but this event is also considered the end to the law, to merely emphasize the premise that Jesus’ death and resurrection was a complete redemption of a people that CANNOT stay under the law at all times as a result of the carnal aspect of our beings. God recognized our wickedness and understood, as He does all things, that we are a lost people as a result of the fall of Adam. Im not saying that the new covenant negates our commandment to remain under the law, im just saying that it, by grace and love from A Father whose mercies are new everyday, forgives us for our consistent inability to do so as a result of our weakness. Please dont think that i am saying that because God made His new covenant with His people that we no longer have to live under the law, but now we do it in reverence and awe of a Majestic God and because of our Fear of The Lord and not because of fear of damnation alone. I live under the law that I might advance in my pursuit of righteousness and that I can be at a place that God can use me as a vessel to win His people. Our heart needs to be His people. This, evangelism, is the one true ministry anyways. Everything we do needs to be of an example to others aiding us in the spreading of The Gospel of Christ. Loving one another was not a commandment of The Almighty for no reason. We need to have a genuine love and care for our bretheren and for those that have not found Jesus yet that we might be a blessing to them and show of Gods love through the example we set. I did not join this forum to argue or to debate doctrine guys. I love the heck out of each and every one of you and just want you to know what The Lord is laying on my heart. Please dont take anything I say as an attack because that is completely opposing of what I am actually tryin to do. I just want to reveal to those that havent found for themselves that God can and is willing to be as real in your life as He is in mine. Gods living reality can only be realized personally. You have to have a fresh encounter with God and discover for yourself how amazing He actually is. God Bless each and every one of you. I sincerely appreciate those that dont take offense to my comments but rather hear them and consider them and then comment in a mature way. I know you are all capable. I know sometimes this can be a frustrating subject because of the disagreements that reside in such a loaded thing. God Bless You all again. Sincerely
Jarred

Jarred,

You assume a great deal. Do you really believe that we do not know or appreciate how great God is, or that He is not real in our lives? You are mingling with “on fire” / “Spirit filled” Catholics on this forum.

I would also point out that while obedience is necessary for salvation, Catholics believe that everything associated with salvation comes by way of grace. Moreover, we believe that the lavish grace given by God empowers us to do His will. Romans 8:29 tells us that God’s purpose for the elect is “to conform them to the image of His son.” By grace we are a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand[Eph 2:10]. Furthermore, Galatians 6:15 says, “For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.” Likewise, Galatians 5:6 says, " For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love." These verses encapsulate the Catholic position and they tell us God’s purpose for justifying us and filling us with His grace. Do Catholics enjoy the power of God in their lives? You better believe it. Do we have a relationship with God that is filled with love, awe, and wonder? You better believe it.

Keep hanging out with us…you will learn a great deal about Catholics and Catholic teaching that you never knew.

 

[Cat]

I didn’t really see anything that far away from Catholicism in NewPerspective’s ((Jarred) post # 53.

NewPerspective, as a Catholic I honestly would have no problem with any of your statements in that long post.

I don’t understand–do you think Catholics believe something different than what you posted? I get the impression that you believe (incorrectly) that Catholics teach that following the Ten Commandments (The Old Testament Law) gets us to heaven. This isn’t what we teach at all.

Here is what we teach-the “Four Spiritual Laws”, so to speak, of Catholicism.–

Catholics teach salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. At some point, we must each make a personal decision to believe on Jesus, accept Him as Savior and Lord, and follow Him. Catholics call this “conversion,” and teach that conversion is a constant, lifelong process–yes, we make an initial decision to believe in Him, perhaps when we are children or teenagers, or perhaps as adults at a Mass or a retreat or concert or even at a Protestant evangelistic crusade. But we must continue to follow Him throughout our lives. We can’t just count on a one-time prayer (or baptism or confirmation) to get us to heaven.

The purpose of following Jesus Christ is to glorify God and praise Him by becoming like Him, sinless and perfect. We must receive grace from the Lord Jesus to give up sin and become virtuous and perfect like our Lord Jesus.

Catholics teach that the main means of receiving this grace is through the sacraments, especially Holy Communion, but there are other means of receiving grace such as reading the Scriptures, prayer, and practicing charity.

We believe in a Triune God, who is Three Persons but One God. We believe that the Holy Spirit is in our lives and will be our constant comforter and give us strength to keep following Jesus.

This is a VERY simplistic explanation of Catholic Christianity. I hope you’ll read more, starting with that library section in this website.

In your long paragraph, you wrote about a lot of things that I honestly think are in agreement with Catholic teaching. You see, we are not so different in our beliefs as you might think.

I especially liked this:

You wrote–“Everything we do needs to be of an example to others aiding us in the spreading of The Gospel of Christ. Loving one another was not a commandment of The Almighty for no reason. We need to have a genuine love and care for our bretheren and for those that have not found Jesus yet that we might be a blessing to them and show of Gods love through the example we set”–

NewPerspective, Catholics certainly believe this. I think you have written a wonderful statement about the importance of loving one another. No disagreement here.

I hope you’ll keep studying. You will find that there are many things that Catholics and you agree with, especially salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. You may have problems with Marian doctrines, purgatory (although I think that’s a very Biblical teaching), asking the saints to pray for us, statues and images, the “treasury of merit,” etc… But the main issue–salvation–there is no disagreement here.

 

[Publisher]

I am happy you like that one, and happy I could make the mood lighter here a moment.

Now, back to business.

What if anything can you say about the good Dr. Blosser’s digestion of the Jesus Seminar? Good, bad or indifferent, I am curious.

Well I seem to be losing connections. I’ve typed out two responses and lost them both…so here’s a quick one.

I enjoy the Jesus Seminar…but just because I enjoy their publications doesn’t mean I accept everything they write…they are very informative and thought provoking. I have no problem reading every kind of book or publication, none of them threaten my faith, but they do enlighten my faith and strengthen it.

While I come from a “non-creedal” tradition, I see the creeds as “sacred myth” seeking to relay an eternal truth.

The gospels are not fact. They are a “retelling” of many OT stories using Jesus and his followers instead of Moses and the prophets.

Mary’s song sounds very much like Hannah’s. Joseph was a dreamer of dreams, who’s father was Jacob, who brought his family to Egypt to save them. The writer of Matthew follows a format for his gospel similar to the Torah. Judas (Judah, Jew) the one(s) who handed Jesus over as an act of betrayal.

Abraham lead his beloved son to Mt. Moriah to offer him for a sacrifice…"Where is the ram…“God himself will provide the lamb”…Elijah provided a double portion of his spirit to his disciple Elisha, and was taken up in a mighty rushing wind with a firedrawn chariot, in the Upper Room tonges of fire and a mighty rushing wind filled the place and they were filled with the Holy Spirit…all similar…and there are many more.

The gospels are a collection of Jesus’ sayings formated into a story form drawn from the OT…they are not absolutely historical, and finding the historical Jesus in his 100% humanity is what intrigues me…and the Jesus Seminar helps to frame it.

The criticisms begin with the writers faith, it is his faith which drives him…not the facts…IMO…but that’s ok.

I view the nature of the church and “salvation” different than you…but I do believe the fullest revelation of God is found in Jesus of Nazareth. Borg, Crossan, Spong and others are on their own spiritual journey, as am I…I am not fettered by a “magisterium” that dictates “doctrine” to me…I am called to follow the Light Within…the Light of Christ…the claims of the Catholic Church really hold no sway with me, it is the dominant branch of what became Christianity…other branches were “lopped” and subdued once it had military backing to enforce exile or worse upon discenters.

 

[Hellisreal]

Okay Publisher, I think I see the pattern in your responses. You do not want to read the link I provided. You do not want to comment on the link.

I understand. The information Dr. Blosser provides to refute the false notions being presented in the Jesus Seminar may be possibly too much of a challenge either to your faith to read and study or too challenging to refute.

Either way, it was interesting hearing your thoughts and position. I can not agree, but hope that this is not an impediment to future disscusions on what you do believe.

God be with you

 

[Publisher]

Okay Publisher, I think I see the pattern in your responses. You do not want to read the link I provided. You do not want to comment on the link.

I understand. The information Dr. Blosser provides to refute the false notions being presented in the Jesus Seminar may be possibly too much of a challenge either to your faith to read and study or too challenging to refute.

Either way, it was interesting hearing your thoughts and position. I can not agree, but hope that this is not an impediment to future disscusions on what you do believe.

God be with you

I too see the “pattern” in your responses. I have no doubt you cannot agree.

May you find peace and grace in your faith.

 

[Pax]

…
…
I view the nature of the church and “salvation” different than you…but I do believe the fullest revelation of God is found in Jesus of Nazareth. Borg, Crossan, Spong and others are on their own spiritual journey, as am I…I am not fettered by a “magisterium” that dictates “doctrine” to me…I am called to follow the Light Within…the Light of Christ…the claims of the Catholic Church really hold no sway with me, it is the dominant branch of what became Christianity…other branches were “lopped” and subdued once it had military backing to enforce exile or worse upon discenters.

It is becoming clear to me just how far apart we are. There are too many things for me to comment on and all of them would require me to comment at length. I will, however, comment on your last paragraph.

I would agree that you view the nature of the church and salvation to be different from our view. I would also agree that the fullest revelation of God is to be found in Jesus. The problem comes down to what our understanding of that revelation really is. I find it amusing that you think the church dictates doctrines to us and that we are somehow tied down by all of this while you are unfettered by a dictatorial magesterium.

Please be advised that as Catholics we have chosen to accept Catholic teaching voluntary. Moreover, we have done so because we find it to be the most complete and the most congruent to scripture. Our freedom lies in what we have chosen as worthy of our belief. We do this with humility and an open heart.

It could just as easily be argued that those that disagree with us are not truly free. Your burden is measured by your dependence on your own thinking and the vast array of varied teachers that you seem to gravitate toward. Jesus said that “the truth will set you free.” We are free because we have embraced the truth. The Church that Jesus established is a visible and unified entity that is as scripture says, “the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”[see 1 Tim 3:15]

There is but one truth. The truth is not relative. We believe that the fullness of truth which is Jesus Christ resides within his body which is the Church. We humbly submit to the truth. We therefore humbly submit to the Church.

 

[Publisher]

Whatever “teachers I gravitate” to, I find that you too “gravitate” towards different teachers…your “teachers” simply make claims about their authority the “teacheres” I read and listen to do not…that’s not an issue for me…we all must follow the Light where we are lead.

I do not believe “Truth” is relative…I do believe in one Ultimate Eternal Truth, but I am finite and mortal and my finite language fails me to articualte this Eternal Truth…no one This Side can…“we see through a glass darkly…”

The Truth of God’s Love is revealed in Christ Jesus, I do not believe He misleads me anymore than you believe He misleads you in the expression of your faith…this world is transitory…so is our language.

Your post led me to a thought…perhaps this is why I am attracted to the experience of worship I am attracted to…an experiential mode of worship where I seek immediate access to the Eternal through the “Real Presence” in our midst.

We are on opposite ends of the “liturgical” spectrum, to be sure…I do not claim a “greater freeedom” than you, the Light is diverse and greater in scope than I can fathom, we’re discussing the Eternal with finite words. It is no wonder we speak past one another so often.

That those Catholic brothers and sisters have found a faith that speaks to their spiritual condition is a wonderful gift…I too have found One who speaks to my condition.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

That those Catholic brothers and sisters have found a faith that speaks to their spiritual condition is a wonderful gift…I too have found One who speaks to my condition.

Catholics don’t much appreciate the accusation that they embrace their faith because it “speaks to their spiritual condition,” “meets their needs,” or any other psychobabble-based reasons. Like the flowers that bloom in the spring, tra la, these reasons have nothing to do with the case.

Blessings,

Gerry Hunter

 

[Publisher]

The reference of “speaking to one’s condition” is from George Fox, who when he had almost despaired in hope heard a voice…"There is One, even Christ Jesus, that can speak to thy condition.’…the answer to the human condition I spoke of was Christ Jesus…following him is what we do have in common…and while you consider me in grave error…I still claim…“There is One that can speak to our condition…” Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox or any other.

 

[Hellisreal]

The reference of “speaking to one’s condition” is from George Fox, who when he had almost despaired in hope heard a voice…"There is One, even Christ Jesus, that can speak to thy condition.’…the answer to the human condition I spoke of was Christ Jesus…following him is what we do have in common…and while you consider me in grave error…I still claim…“There is One that can speak to our condition…” Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox or any other.

This all boils down to one thing. You are unaware of the ways you can apply your mystical needs in the Catholic faith without all the falsity that goes with your beliefs. You may be unaware how your spiritual needs can be met in the Catholic Church.
I dont know if you are Gnostic or what you are practicing, and it does not matter, but I think you may be ruling something out without giving it a fair trial as I saw you refusing to read my link also.

 

[Publisher]

No, I’ve looked squarely at Catholicism…but my spiritual needs have been met in Christ the Light among the Society of Friends.

Thanks for the concern though…but “I am persuaded that he is able to keep what I have commited unto him against that day.” I am content in what I have found in Christ, as I am sure you are with what you have found.

 

[Hellisreal]

No, I’ve looked squarely at Catholicism…but my spiritual needs have been met in Christ the Light among the Society of Friends.

Thanks for the concern though…but “I am persuaded that he is able to keep what I have commited unto him against that day.” I am content in what I have found in Christ, as I am sure you are with what you have found.

I was happy to talk to you nonetheless. I hope to see you around on the forums too.

 

[Publisher]

I plan on hanging around, many of the “answers” and “challenges” I read here have helped me greatly in understanding Catholicism. It has made me very much aware there are some who share a deep loving faith in Christ here.

My goal is to hopefully share something of another Christian tradition, not to “convince” anyone of the truthfullness of Quakerism, but to share a common faith in Christ.

I know this is at best difficult for many, but if we don’t share, we’ll never understand one another.

I have read some of the posts that have “warned” me as they are concerned about my eternal destiny…all I can say is “Bless their hearts.”

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

The reference of “speaking to one’s condition” is from George Fox, who when he had almost despaired in hope heard a voice…"There is One, even Christ Jesus, that can speak to thy condition.’…the answer to the human condition I spoke of was Christ Jesus…following him is what we do have in common…and while you consider me in grave error…I still claim…“There is One that can speak to our condition…” Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox or any other.

You justify your statement about faith by making a statement about Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is not faith in Jesus Christ. It is Jesus Christ who speaks to our condition, not a person’s faith as you suggested. It is the Church that enunciates this in the world. The Church is not the Faith; she guards and proclaims the Faith.

And as for citing George Fox as an authority to Catholics, :whacky: :whacky: :whacky:

Blessings,

Gerry Hunter

 

[Subrosa]

I plan on hanging around, many of the “answers” and “challenges” I read here have helped me greatly in understanding Catholicism. It has made me very much aware there are some who share a deep loving faith in Christ here.

My goal is to hopefully share something of another Christian tradition, not to “convince” anyone of the truthfullness of Quakerism, but to share a common faith in Christ.

I know this is at best difficult for many, but if we don’t share, we’ll never understand one another.

I have read some of the posts that have “warned” me as they are concerned about my eternal destiny…all I can say is “Bless their hearts.”

Publisher -

This is a good attitude to have: a sharing intead of a lambasting. You state a great benefit of this attitude: to know the deeply loving faith that we all have, instead of stereotypical definitions.

Please know that at least one devoted Catholic on these forums appreciates it.

God bless,
Subrosa