Old Testament vs New Testament Parallels

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Kaninchen said:
Actually, it’s not at all illogical. I didn’t say there was no Jesus, I didn’t say that he wasn’t an influential figure - some people follow influential figures. Neither did I say it was a ‘hoax’, I said it was a ‘pious fiction’.

Saying ‘it must be true because millions believe it for a long time’, would also mean that Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam must also be true.

Of course it’s central to your beliefs, I understand that, I recognize that. As a Jew, I don’t really care about what you believe about Jesus, we don’t believe that you’re doomed in some way for believing as you do. I was merely pointing out that there’s another (perfectly logical) explanation for prophesies being ‘fulfilled’.
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I am curious about one thing kaninchen, how do you explain the thousands of prophecies of Jesus that were fulfilled through scripture?
 
rinnie said:
I am curious about one thing kaninchen, how do you explain the thousands of prophecies of Jesus that were fulfilled through scripture?
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I think it’s clear, from what I wrote, ie the NT was constructed in a particular way.

If ‘fulfillment’, for example, is a matter of text usage (like ‘only begotten son’ as instanced above’) it’s just a matter of text usage. This also goes to the question of what really constitutes a Messiah prophesy - searching the Tanakh for every possible piece of text that could vaguely be linked to Jesus (‘only begotten son’, for example) isn’t a matter of prophesy ‘fulfillment’, it’s a matter of manipulation of text and interpretation - either in construction of the NT or in later interpretation of the NT by apologists doesn’t really matter.

There are other kinds of examples, for example interpretation of prophesy like that of Micah to mean that the Messiah will come from Bethlehem, means that the NT comes up with the unlikely story of a census and a stable. Or, then again, to get parallels with of the Moses story, we get the unhistoric story of Herod and the ‘innocents’.

The point is that I won’t and actually don’t want to convince you that what you believe is wrong, I’m merely relating some of the reasons we don’t accept ‘fulfillment’. You believe that the New Testament is a kind of real history, we don’t.
 
Kaninchen said:
I think it’s clear, from what I wrote, ie the NT was constructed in a particular way.

If ‘fulfillment’, for example, is a matter of text usage (like ‘only begotten son’ as instanced above’) it’s just a matter of text usage. This also goes to the question of what really constitutes a Messiah prophesy - searching the Tanakh for every possible piece of text that could vaguely be linked to Jesus (‘only begotten son’, for example) isn’t a matter of prophesy ‘fulfillment’, it’s a matter of manipulation of text and interpretation - either in construction of the NT or in later interpretation of the NT by apologists doesn’t really matter.

There are other kinds of examples, for example interpretation of prophesy like that of Micah to mean that the Messiah will come from Bethlehem, means that the NT comes up with the unlikely story of a census and a stable. Or, then again, to get parallels with of the Moses story, we get the unhistoric story of Herod and the ‘innocents’.

The point is that I won’t and actually don’t want to convince you that what you believe is wrong, I’m merely relating some of the reasons we don’t accept ‘fulfillment’. You believe that the New Testament is a kind of real history, we don’t.
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The thing is that you CAN’T accept the New Testament. If you did, then that would mean that the Messiah has come, and you would have to accept that Jesus is the Son of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You would have to abandon the Mosaic Covenant because the Abrahamic Covenant has been fulfilled. If you were to accept the New Testament as True, you would have no choice but accept that YHWH has extended his blessing to all nations. There is no more “Jew” and “Gentile.” Under the New Covenant we all have the opportunity to be “God’s chosen people”
 
CWBetts said:
The thing is that you CAN’T accept the New Testament. If you did, then that would mean that the Messiah has come, and you would have to accept that Jesus is the Son of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You would have to abandon the Mosaic Covenant because the Abrahamic Covenant has been fulfilled. If you were to accept the New Testament as True, you would have no choice but accept that YHWH has extended his blessing to all nations. There is no more “Jew” and “Gentile.” Under the New Covenant we all have the opportunity to be “God’s chosen people”
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The thing is that you CAN’T accept that the New Testament is a confection. If you did . . . . (substitute the necessary words).
 
Kaninchen said:
The thing is that you CAN’T accept that the New Testament is a confection. If you did . . . . (substitute the necessary words).
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I accept the New Testament out of the belief that God exercised Covenant Fidelity. If the blessings of God are still on Israel alone, why has He made it impossible to fulfill your covenant responsibilities since AD 70? Even though your land has largely been restored, you still have no temple. No temple means no sin offering. No sin offering means no remission. Would the God of your people abandon you in such a way? Captivity in Egypt was only 400 years. The whole point of Creation is worship. Why has God put His people in a position that proper worship in impossible, unless He brought about an end to the sacrifice of sheep and goats throug the once for all sacrifice of the Lamb of God.
 
CWBetts said:
I accept the New Testament out of the belief that God exercised Covenant Fidelity. If the blessings of God are still on Israel alone, why has He made it impossible to fulfill your covenant responsibilities since AD 70? Even though your land has largely been restored, you still have no temple. No temple means no sin offering. No sin offering means no remission. Would the God of your people abandon you in such a way? Captivity in Egypt was only 400 years. The whole point of Creation is worship. Why has God put His people in a position that proper worship in impossible, unless He brought about an end to the sacrifice of sheep and goats throug the once for all sacrifice of the Lamb of God.
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I think that one of the problems that Christians have with understanding Judaism is that they think that Christianity is Judaism + Jesus and Judaism is Christianity - Jesus. The thing is that it’s not like that, the two religions don’t ‘work’ in the same way and until you realize that and something about the ways in which they ‘work’ differently then you’re going to be stuck with rather orthogonal and misunderstood questions like these.
 
Superstar905 said:
I wanted to start this thread so people can post examples of the Old testament prophesies revealed in th New Testament. Also, parralells between the two. Things like the Ark of the Covenant and how Mary is the new Eve, etc. Thanks for your co-operation. I’m trying to put this all on a document…
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Ex.34:33-35When he finished speaking with them he put a veil over his face. Whenever Moses entered the presence of the Lord to converse with him he removed the veil until he came out again. … Then the Israelites would see that the skin of Moses’ face was radiant so he would again put the veil over his face until he went in to converse with the Lord.

2Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were darkened; for to this day when the Old Testament is read to them, the selfsame veil remains, not being lifted to disclose the Christ in whom it is made void.
2 Corinthians3: 18 But we all , with faces unveiled, reflecting as in a mirror, the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into his very image from glory to glory, as through the Spirit of the Lord.::bible1:
" Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ "
Saint Jerome
 
Kaninchen said:
I think that one of the problems that Christians have with understanding Judaism is that they think that Christianity is Judaism + Jesus and Judaism is Christianity - Jesus. The thing is that it’s not like that, the two religions don’t ‘work’ in the same way and until you realize that and something about the ways in which they ‘work’ differently then you’re going to be stuck with rather orthogonal and misunderstood questions like these.
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Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. It is the SAME GOD.
 
Kaninchen said:
I think it’s clear, from what I wrote, ie the NT was constructed in a particular way.

If ‘fulfillment’, for example, is a matter of text usage (like ‘only begotten son’ as instanced above’) it’s just a matter of text usage. This also goes to the question of what really constitutes a Messiah prophesy - searching the Tanakh for every possible piece of text that could vaguely be linked to Jesus (‘only begotten son’, for example) isn’t a matter of prophesy ‘fulfillment’, it’s a matter of manipulation of text and interpretation - either in construction of the NT or in later interpretation of the NT by apologists doesn’t really matter.

There are other kinds of examples, for example interpretation of prophesy like that of Micah to mean that the Messiah will come from Bethlehem, means that the NT comes up with the unlikely story of a census and a stable. Or, then again, to get parallels with of the Moses story, we get the unhistoric story of Herod and the ‘innocents’.

The point is that I won’t and actually don’t want to convince you that what you believe is wrong, I’m merely relating some of the reasons we don’t accept ‘fulfillment’. You believe that the New Testament is a kind of real history, we don’t.
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Here is one for you to explain to me. They beat the living **** out of Jesus. It is said that when he got to the cross he no longer looked like a human being. Now you explain this one. NOT A BONE WILL BE BROKEN! How could it be possible for any Man to go through all of that and not a bone on his body broken. IF that does not prove it to you nothing can. That right there is proof he was indeed GOD!
 
rinnie said:
Here is one for you to explain to me. They beat the living **** out of Jesus. It is said that when he got to the cross he no longer looked like a human being. Now you explain this one. NOT A BONE WILL BE BROKEN! How could it be possible for any Man to go through all of that and not a bone on his body broken. IF that does not prove it to you nothing can. That right there is proof he was indeed GOD!
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I’m sure that’s all very persuasive, if one believes in the NT as being some kind of reportage. If one doesn’t, then it isn’t.
 
Kaninchen said:
I think that one of the problems that Christians have with understanding Judaism is that they think that Christianity is Judaism + Jesus and Judaism is Christianity - Jesus. The thing is that it’s not like that, the two religions don’t ‘work’ in the same way and until you realize that and something about the ways in which they ‘work’ differently then you’re going to be stuck with rather orthogonal and misunderstood questions like these./QUOTE

No we know that Christianity is CHRIST. We know that Judaism + Christ = Christianity. Jesus Christ is the word becomes flesh! You just cannot see it!
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Kaninchen said:
I’m sure that’s all very persuasive, if one believes in the NT as being some kind of reportage. If one doesn’t, then it isn’t.
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It is persuasive I agree! Its very easy to be persuasive when it is the truth! It is funny how more and more every days the Jews are comming to the truth. There are more Jews today who accept Jesus Christ then every before. They have searched for the truth and have found it in the Catholic Church!

But not many Catholic’s have left the RCC for the temple!:eek:
 
rinnie said:
Kaninchen;5824733:
I think that one of the problems that Christians have with understanding Judaism is that they think that Christianity is Judaism + Jesus and Judaism is Christianity - Jesus. The thing is that it’s not like that, the two religions don’t ‘work’ in the same way and until you realize that and something about the ways in which they ‘work’ differently then you’re going to be stuck with rather orthogonal and misunderstood questions like these.
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Or not as the case may be.

There’s no point in shouting your beliefs at me, rinnie, I know what they are and it all just becomes a:

‘Oh yes it is’
‘Oh no it isn’t’
‘Oh yes it is’
‘Oh no it isn’t’

conversation.

If a Mormon, or Muslim, said similar things to you how impressed would you be?
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rinnie said:
It is persuasive I agree! Its very easy to be persuasive when it is the truth! It is funny how more and more every days the Jews are comming to the truth. There are more Jews today who accept Jesus Christ then every before. They have searched for the truth and have found it in the Catholic Church!

But not many Catholic’s have left the RCC for the temple!:eek:
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It is funny how, every day, more and more Christians leave religion and just can’t be bothered.

This is intrinsically a very silly conversation.
 
Kaninchen said:
It is funny how, every day, more and more Christians leave religion and just can’t be bothered.

This is intrinsically a very silly conversation.
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Its not silly Kaninchen, and I was not shouting at you. If you think I was I am sorry.

And it is not funny how many Christians leave the faith and cannot be bothered. Its sad and makes the world a much bitter place. We all need God. And because society chooses to not cling to God you see what they have become.

But don’t worry, ITs comming back to clinging to God. Because the way things are going we are all going to go back to him, because we are going to see he is all we have.

And once we see that he is all we have, we will also see he is all we need, and have ever needed.

I understand for some reason you cannot see the truth, and from the bottom of my heart I am so sorry for that. I cannot understand how you can miss it. I just have to remember how lucky I am to have the truth and to be able to see it. And just pray for you that God will show you what is so clear to me.
 
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