K
Kaninchen
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If you ever want to convince somebody of your religion, don’t talk to them like this.
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M
Magnus1981
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If I could ask you a simple question:If you ever want to convince somebody of your religion, don’t talk to them like this.
Why are you on these forums?
And please: just give me a straight-forward answer. You’re obviously on these forums for a reason and I don’t think it’s to argue that the New Testament is nothing more than mere “fiction”.
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Nathan_Wagar
Guest
Kaninchen, what are your actual objections? What’s your purpose, your point?
The fact is, we could discuss the validity of the gospels, since I could argue that they do not fall under the category of Jewish midrash, never claim to be anything but historical accounts, etc. The simple fact is, though, that that is a discussion for another thread.
Most Jews I know at least acknowledge what the gospels purport to be, and debate whether or not Jesus fulfilled the the messianic prophecies.
If you choose to do that, then by all means we can continue this. Otherwise, I must confess I’m not sure why you are on this thread, because it seems like you are just sitting on the fence taking pop shots.
The fact is, we could discuss the validity of the gospels, since I could argue that they do not fall under the category of Jewish midrash, never claim to be anything but historical accounts, etc. The simple fact is, though, that that is a discussion for another thread.
Most Jews I know at least acknowledge what the gospels purport to be, and debate whether or not Jesus fulfilled the the messianic prophecies.
If you choose to do that, then by all means we can continue this. Otherwise, I must confess I’m not sure why you are on this thread, because it seems like you are just sitting on the fence taking pop shots.
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Kaninchen
Guest
My point? You know, thinking about it, after a decade and a half of talking to Christians on the Internet - most Christians I know in real life impress far more by the silent evangelism of their lives rather than in the language of evangelism - it’s that I think that this approach is something that Christians should consider more critically. After all the compilation of lists is something of a product of the Josh McDowell ‘Evidence That Demands A Verdict’ era of campus evangelism really and it speaks of a certain desperation - trawling through the Tanakh (‘Old Testament’) grabbing at pieces of text and trying to develop links to them that are really purely rhetorical.Kaninchen, what are your actual objections? What’s your purpose, your point?
Now, there are the key questions - Isiah 53 and so on - that have the real force of argument behind them but these 'Genesis X:Y “And Joseph stubbed his toe”/Matthew W:Z “And it came to pass that Jesus stubbed his toe” parallels are not of that kind.
That, of course, is a question of acceptance or not of a particular agenda of discussion. I used to do the same but decided that endlessly rehearsing Isiah 53 and so on becomes both pointless and conceals the fact that one side wants to convert while the other just wants to explain ‘why not’. So, I take a more direct line of not accepting the agenda and saying that fulfillment or not really does depend on what one considers the nature of the ‘New Testament’ in the first place.Most Jews I know at least acknowledge what the gospels purport to be, and debate whether or not Jesus fulfilled the the messianic prophecies.
Well, I’m clearly not sitting on the fence - whether it should be continued is another matter altogether.If you choose to do that, then by all means we can continue this. Otherwise, I must confess I’m not sure why you are on this thread, because it seems like you are just sitting on the fence taking pop shots.
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Nathan_Wagar
Guest
Fair enough.
I agree that the majority of “proof texts” are copied from Josh McDowel sources, and I would venture to state that if one is going to have an intelligent conversation with a Jew, a Catholic should take the time to read Midrash, Talmud, Rabbinic sources, etc. Not many people are going to do that, however. I have to an extent, so I can have an intelligent conversation with you on it, but I am not an “expert in the field” by any means.
I would say that there are a few key texts, (Isaiah 53 being one of them of course, but everybody points that one out so it really isn’t even that fun; Haggai 2, etc.) that do convincingly point to Jesus as the Messiah.
As for converting Catholics to Judaism, I’d say that has an even lower success rate than Catholics converting Jews. We already get accused by Protestants of being “too Jewish” as it is. (Yes, I have heard that one quite a few times). Although the Jews I have known that have converted remarked that the transition to Catholicism was much less jarring than it would have been as an evangelical, so maybe there is some blessed truth in the accusation.
You are quite right, however, about silent evangelism. I enjoy these forums as a way to debate my faith with others, because honestly when I am defending Scripture and having it prodded by the other side, I actually tend to learn it more, and retain the knowledge. It’s a learning experience for me, and gives me valuable insight into how others view things. But when it comes down to it, my true joy is giving a homeless man something to eat, volunteer work at an orphanage when I was stationed in Korea, etc. I am the “head knowledge” in my house but my wife truly puts me to shame with her quiet example. I studied for thousands of hours when not on mission in Iraq, but honestly I think being married to a woman that lived the teachings of Christ is what made me Catholic.
The best you can hope to get out of posting on the forum is to learn the other side and have intelligent discussions contrasting beliefs. And if yours or others are swayed, so be it. I enjoy your presence here, as I do Ben Masada’s however, so I hope you don’t leave.
I agree that the majority of “proof texts” are copied from Josh McDowel sources, and I would venture to state that if one is going to have an intelligent conversation with a Jew, a Catholic should take the time to read Midrash, Talmud, Rabbinic sources, etc. Not many people are going to do that, however. I have to an extent, so I can have an intelligent conversation with you on it, but I am not an “expert in the field” by any means.
I would say that there are a few key texts, (Isaiah 53 being one of them of course, but everybody points that one out so it really isn’t even that fun; Haggai 2, etc.) that do convincingly point to Jesus as the Messiah.
As for converting Catholics to Judaism, I’d say that has an even lower success rate than Catholics converting Jews. We already get accused by Protestants of being “too Jewish” as it is. (Yes, I have heard that one quite a few times). Although the Jews I have known that have converted remarked that the transition to Catholicism was much less jarring than it would have been as an evangelical, so maybe there is some blessed truth in the accusation.
You are quite right, however, about silent evangelism. I enjoy these forums as a way to debate my faith with others, because honestly when I am defending Scripture and having it prodded by the other side, I actually tend to learn it more, and retain the knowledge. It’s a learning experience for me, and gives me valuable insight into how others view things. But when it comes down to it, my true joy is giving a homeless man something to eat, volunteer work at an orphanage when I was stationed in Korea, etc. I am the “head knowledge” in my house but my wife truly puts me to shame with her quiet example. I studied for thousands of hours when not on mission in Iraq, but honestly I think being married to a woman that lived the teachings of Christ is what made me Catholic.
The best you can hope to get out of posting on the forum is to learn the other side and have intelligent discussions contrasting beliefs. And if yours or others are swayed, so be it. I enjoy your presence here, as I do Ben Masada’s however, so I hope you don’t leave.
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Benadam
Guest
GEn 4-1 Adam knew his wife Eve and she brought forth Cain saying " I have gotten a man"
Rev 18-24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Rev 18-24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
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Benadam
Guest
Genesis 4
24 Sevenfold vengeance shall be taken for Cain: but for Lamech seventy times sevenfold.
Matthew 18
21 Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times.
24 Sevenfold vengeance shall be taken for Cain: but for Lamech seventy times sevenfold.
Matthew 18
21 Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times.
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Benadam
Guest
Gen 4
11 Now, therefore, cursed shalt thou be upon the earth, which hath opened her mouth and received the blood of thy brother at thy hand.
Rev12
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the river, which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
11 Now, therefore, cursed shalt thou be upon the earth, which hath opened her mouth and received the blood of thy brother at thy hand.
Rev12
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the river, which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
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Benadam
Guest
Gen 4
25 Adam also knew his wife again: and she brought forth a son, and called his name Seth, saying: God hath given me another seed, for Abel whom Cain slew.
Gen 5
1 This is the book of the generation of Adam. In the day that God created man, he made him to the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female; and blessed them: and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years, and begot a son to his own image and likeness,
Mark 1
11 And there came a voice from heaven: Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
25 Adam also knew his wife again: and she brought forth a son, and called his name Seth, saying: God hath given me another seed, for Abel whom Cain slew.
Gen 5
1 This is the book of the generation of Adam. In the day that God created man, he made him to the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female; and blessed them: and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years, and begot a son to his own image and likeness,
Mark 1
11 And there came a voice from heaven: Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
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