Older Catholics and Younger Catholics

[lola5555]

This is a bit of a random question, but I’m wondering if other people have noticed the same types of things that I’ve seen for at least 15 years now…in most of the parishes I’ve attended it seems that the older people (say the Baby Boom generation and maybe a little older), are more into Vatican II and subsequent changes than younger people (Gen X, millennials). Now I’m not talking about every older person vs. every younger person, not by a long shot. In my church, some older people are more for ordained women priests, tried to tell us that sex outside of marriage is okey-dokey at RCIA, and venomously supported the new mass (no one was saying otherwise at the time). When they would leave, we would talk among ourselves and that’s when I’d hear how much the younger people thought differently. I’ve seen this a few times in different churches I’ve been to.

It reminds me of college when our professors would argue for something quite liberal and assume all the students were supportive as well because they were young. In reality I knew most my classmates and I knew that they were deafeningly silent because they disagreed. So has anyone else seen these types of things or have I just happened to hit some anomalous parishes?

 

[padrepio_2012]

i completely agree and have noticed the same thing! i think it is because the older generation was young when they went through the changes of Vatican II so that is what they have grown up with… however, i am glad to see that the younger generation is starting to turn away from the “radical Catholicism” of the 70’s and 80’s and is trying to live out the true teachings of vatican II. more priests are wearing the cassock, teaching orthodox material, and ive even seen altar rails make a comeback. i think we are finally moving in the right direction again.

 

[Razanir]

Well for what it’s worth, my college’s Newman Center is building a new church (we outgrew the old building). The new one, besides being larger, will pretty much have neo-Gothic architecture (and, of course, be bigger).

 

[Sunbreak]

It’s possible that this is true. You’re talking about the hippy generation. They came out of a very restrictive environment and rebelled by taking an “anything goes” approach to things. However, there are plenty of individuals in that age group that didn’t go to extremes.

 

[robwar]

Well, I guess I must be an older person to you, (baby boomer +50). but I know my husband and I don’t support and number of things that you brought up such as women priests, sex outside marriage etc and so on. There are many “older” Catholics that do follow and support the Churches moral teaching and structure. Growing up in the sixties and seventies, you have to realize that there were a number of social forces out there that were not good and both decades had a lot of turmoil in them which had nothing to do with Vatican II. Now sadly some young person like yourself looks back and wonders or want to blame Church problems and lack of orthodoxy on Vatican II but the lack of orthodoxy would be more due to poor catechesis or poor application of Vatican II than what Vatican II actually said. Sadly too many “older” Catholics have not recatechized themselves to the Church and take their moral ideas from the culture.
I also want to address you comments about Mass preferences. Again, my husband can remember the EF Mass and didn’t like it and wants nothing to do with it. Now maybe what you see is “older” Catholics that don’t prefer the EF Mass to the more common NO Mass is that their memories of EF are not that great and may come from a younger child’s perspective as opposed to a more informed young Catholic’s view like yourself. This isn’t a matter of new Mass verses old Mass, both are there to compliment each other in use. I think to renewed interest in the EF Mass in younger Catholics is do to greater catechesis in the Catholic faith and the fact that the EF Mass is probably celebrated now with renewed reverence and interest as opposed to rote and disconnected as done in the pre-Vatican II time period. At least that is my observations from an “old” Catholic.

 

[otjm]

The problem with generalities is they are… wait for it … general!

Media likes to make generalities - it takes a whole lot less ink than getting into all of the specifics.

And people, because they are herd-like, buy into these generalities as if they encompassed the sum and substance of reality.

There are still people around who were born in the 30’s, the 40’s, (like me), and the 50’s, Some of these people are the “liberals” (whatever that means) and some are “conservatives” (same issue - definition).

However, the people pre- and just post-WW2 are painted with the brush of the liberal end of the post-V2 movement that went off to the end of the earth, and jumped. In reality, there is a continuous spectrum. It is just that those who were particularly liberal were the darlings of the press, and the ones who “found the microphone” and so were the only ones being noticed. It was not that everyone bought into their images, ideas and practices; some did, many were ambivalent or simply did not pay attention to the liberal end, and some were conservative to arch-conservative. However, one group had the mic and resulted in the rest of us being labeled.

But as has always been true of history (which is why there is such a thing as history), each generation found their own issues, images, ideas and practices.

Along the way, in the Church, we suffered the change in catechesis (Yes, Fr, Hardin had a catechism, and there were a couple of decent ones besides -but the vast majority of parishes seem to have not found them) such that we have two and now almost three generations who have been so poorly catechized that they know little or nothing of the Faith. They can’t tell you what a sacrament is; their knowledge of moral issues is abysmal, and they are far, far more secularized than my generation.

Keep in mind that as far as Mass attendance, it is my generation that has the highest percentage attending Mass each Sunday and the 18 to 25 age range has the lowest (see, e.g., statistics from CARA).

It is easy to say "Well, the current generation (is/does/thinks/feels & etc.), but too often, those saying it are falling into the same trap as those who paint my generation as the “liberals”. Too often we speak both from a narrow perspective and from our own innate prejudices.

To respond to the OP, part of the issue is where you are geographically. In general, the blue states predominate the East Coast (and then there are us dumb clucks out here in Oregon). Rural areas tend more towards red. Inner city parishes tend more towards a liberal view than suburban, and then again farther as you get rural.

Older people, who experienced the Church pre and post Vatican 2 in general have a strong appreciation for the change from Latin to the vernacular; and for the priest facing ad populum rather than liturgical East. Most of them, if asked, could not tell you much in the way of changed rubrics, nor much about the change in prayers.

So, as to comments about changes to the Mass, moral issues, and ordaining women priests, a lot will depend on the parish, and a lot on the geographical area (for example, some inner city parishes may be “hair on fire liberal” and some quietly conservative. Be careful of assuming that whatever sampling you have done is indicative of much more than the sample.

 

[lola5555]

Thanks for all your perspectives. It is interesting.

And just a reminder, I’m asking a question and offering my admittedly limited observations. I have made no conclusion about entire generations of people and thus use words like “seems” and “some.” Nor am I calling anyone ‘old’ (just older than myself, which means very little). In other words, please do not be offended by my question, as it is sincere.

My mother is a baby boomer and loved latin mass growing up. She is heartbroken about many of the changes that occurred. So I have a very personal reminder that not all baby boomers are liberal or one way in particular. I’m speaking only about the parishes I’ve been to and what I have noticed with the people I’ve spoken to. That’s a very limited sampling…thus, my question here. And while generalities have their limitations they also can offer insight when balanced and reasonable.

 

[CruceSignati]

Catholic teen here who loves the Church and Her Traditions! :whackadoo:

I can understand what you’re saying: my grandparents and a few of my aunts and uncles support women’s ordination and the like, while myself and a few others my age on CAF hold to the true teachings of the Catholic Church.

On the other hand, otjm mentioned that the 18-25 year olds are at the bottom of the list when it comes to numbers of Catholics in the pews. This is also very true. With today’s media and culture surrounding them, and with almost no substantial catechesis to back up their faith, young adults cannot possibly defend themselves against the lies and errors that persist in today’s society. As an extra note, I am also generalising here; not everyone has been poorly catechised, but I know that about 90% of my friends have.

If you received good, solid Church teaching in your catechism class, praise God for that wonder!

 

[robwar]

Thanks for all your perspectives. It is interesting.

And just a reminder, I’m asking a question and offering my admittedly limited observations. I have made no conclusion about entire generations of people and thus use words like “seems” and “some.” Nor am I calling anyone ‘old’ (just older than myself, which means very little). In other words, please do not be offended by my question, as it is sincere.

My mother is a baby boomer and loved latin mass growing up. She is heartbroken about many of the changes that occurred. So I have a very personal reminder that not all baby boomers are liberal or one way in particular. I’m speaking only about the parishes I’ve been to and what I have noticed with the people I’ve spoken to. That’s a very limited sampling…thus, my question here. And while generalities have their limitations they also can offer insight when balanced and reasonable.

no offense was taken. i called myself “old” in fun. I generally think myself as young in heart!
Different generations per say face different issues. Growing up in the 60-70, there was a lot of chaos and confusion in society and a number of unhealthy things were unleashed such as birth control, no-fault divorce, a throwing away for basic moral standards etc and so on.
I grew up watching the Watergate hearings on TV, my mother had that on as much as possible. But one can’t blame Vatican II for society chaos and confusion. If you think the Church was misplaced during that time, I would say that Humanae Vitae was a pretty bold and brave statement by Pope Paul IV against the growing tide from the pill. I would say you as a St. John Paul II generation are beginning to reap the benefits from Vatican II and the new evangelization. Look at your Newman center, Catholic Answers, Catholic Radio, Catholic apologetics, etc and so on shows new growth and outreach of the Catholic Church. If more young people are now interested in the EF Mass, maybe the time is arriving where Catholics appreciate it instead of sitting at Mass disconnected from it.

 

[POJIUJH]

As someone in his early twenties, I’ve described it to others like this;

It’s as though you are swimming in a moving ocean of mud. To avoid drowning in the tides, you put your arms down and search for something to hold on to. You find something bulky and slippery, yet immovable. You hang onto it with all your strength. Due to your holding on in addition to the strength of the waves, a large chunk of mud breaks loose from it. Then another, then another. Your grip now becomes surer and surer.

After a while, enough mud breaks loose that you realise you are clinging onto a very hard rock. It is entirely solid, hard and coarse that it causes your hands pain to hold on to, yet it is such a good and safe thing to grasp that you notice that unless you intentionally remove your hand from it, you won’t lose grip.

The rock saves you from drowning until you are saved, unless by choice you let go of it, or if your hands become lax due to being unfocused or overconfident, and mud gathers between the empty spaces of your hands until a strong tide comes that will try to sweep you away.

The world today is like that, more so now even than 40 years ago. The older generation had a good grip, but over time and carelessness the mud had built up, until they only held onto a thick piece that they thought was the rock, yet it offered them no protection or safety against the shifting tides.

Anybody in this generation that come to the faith don’t even have the possibility of doing it by degrees like might have been possible, though not optimal, in the past. The tides are so forceful that unless all of the mud around the rock is removed, they will slip without a hope.

Thanks be to God for this Rock!

 

[johnmann]

quinnipiac.edu/news-and-events/quinnipiac-university-poll/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=1961

68% of Catholic seniors support female ordination. 57% of Catholics under 50 do.

Also, younger Catholics are more pro-life and more supportive of gay marriage.

I wish someone would commission a poll of Catholics concerning the liturgy. My guess would be that it’s similar to other issues. Younger Catholics prefer more traditional liturgy over older Catholics but it’s possible a solid majority of young Catholics still want rock concert Masses.

 

[whipp711]

quinnipiac.edu/news-and-events/quinnipiac-university-poll/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=1961

68% of Catholic seniors support female ordination. 57% of Catholics under 50 do.

Also, younger Catholics are more pro-life and more supportive of gay marriage.

I wish someone would commission a poll of Catholics concerning the liturgy. My guess would be that it’s similar to other issues. Younger Catholics prefer more traditional liturgy over older Catholics but it’s possible a solid majority of young Catholics still want rock concert Masses.

Poll results like that make me think Michael Voris might be on the right side of the issue.

Interestingly, I left the church right after Vatican II. Stupid, self centered reasons. However, I did come back. My first impression, what happened? It was quite a shock. You’ll have to place this old baby boomer in with the traditionalist crowd.

 

[Kal2012]

Yeah, my baby boom female RCIA leader didn’t seem too happy that priests and the laity were getting more traditional.

 

[SMHW]

quinnipiac.edu/news-and-events/quinnipiac-university-poll/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=1961

68% of Catholic seniors support female ordination. 57% of Catholics under 50 do.

Also, younger Catholics are more pro-life and more supportive of gay marriage.

I wish someone would commission a poll of Catholics concerning the liturgy. My guess would be that it’s similar to other issues. Younger Catholics prefer more traditional liturgy over older Catholics but it’s possible a solid majority of young Catholics still want rock concert Masses.

I think that there is an increase in interest in a traditional liturgy with young people. However I question whether that interest necessarily means that those same younger people reject (I’m searching for the right words) “contemporary” liturgy.

Obviously there are going to be people with “extreme” preferences in music but I think the majority of young people take a more is better view where they like multiple styles such as traditional hymns (in any language), chant (in any language or style), sacred polyphony, 60s-70s style music, 80s-90s-00s style music, gospel music, evangelical type praise and worship music, and all the other musical styles I can’t think of right now.

 

[JakeWI]

My Catholic friend (who is upper 20s) and I (middle 20s) were discussing this very subject two weeks ago. He discribed the church as going through cycles… like a pendulum… swinging back and forth. At times, it becomes more liberal… at others, it becomes more conservative. It is a slow change, but it happens. The millenial generation is experiencing the swing back conservative. So to me, it isn’t just imagination… otherwise these posts wouldn’t be coming up so frequently on here.

An example I will use is that our Priest is 35 years old. He came out of the seminary in 2005. He is very much all about the traditions of the Church and wanting it to be that way. The results of that is a very beautiful and relevant Mass every week, that my wife and I connect with very well. Heck, our church is the reason that she is switching from Lutheranism to Catholicism (starting the transition this fall). Weekly, we will have at the very least the Agnus Dei sung in Latin, as well as a song during communion also being sung in Latin. This actually had just started since Lent began. It is so very beautiful. No drums, no rock band… just organ and grand piano (which are both used during each Mass, alternating). Sometimes during the big Masses, a choir of both males and females, bells, and cello/viola. It really brings out the magic of the Mass.

So to sum it up, I do think it is generational. While some may say a “majority” want a rock band at Mass, I am not really sure that is the case. I know when I see the MANY families with their babies at our church every week (probably more than half of the people that attend our 11am Mass which fills the 800 people pews), that I am not dreaming.

I almost think that it could be a conditional thing… that some of our generation had never experienced a “traditional” or at least closer to it type of Mass, so they know no different.

The funny thing I notice is that the people who are actually in the millenial generation are the ones saying they are noticing more traditional values for the Church in our generation, but the older generations always say that isn’t the case…

 

[TimothyH]

Young people used to have reverence for older people. They used to take their hat off and keep silent when a person with gray hair walked into the room. They would ask questions and not presume to know more than people with more experience. In fact, this is the traditional behavior of members of the sixteen century old Order of St. Benedict.

There may be this or that old person with unorthodox Catholic beliefs, but many young people lack judgment to be able to make correct decisions. Judgement is best formed by experience in the real world.

I have held my daughter in my arms as she died. I watched a wife of 17 years walk out, leaving me with two young girls to raise by myself. I’ve sat at my kitchen table praying for hours because I didn’t know what my children were going to eat when they woke up in the morning. One of the lessons I have learned through it is that I don’t know as much as I thought I did and most of what I thought I knew as fact was really my own opinion.

This is my suggestion to all of you young people. Go to a monastery. Ask to spend an hour or two with the novice director. These are men of great holiness, and when you speak to them about these things they will look at you as if you have three heads because they know that holiness is what gets you into heaven. They will tell you that the path to holiness starts with humility and that humility is knowing your proper place.

-Tim-

 

[lola5555]

I have held my daughter in my arms as she died. I watched a wife of 17 years walk out, leaving me with two young girls to raise by myself. I’ve sat at my kitchen table praying for hours because I didn’t know what my children were going to eat when they woke up in the morning. One of the lessons I have learned through it is that I don’t know as much as I thought I did and most of what I thought I knew as fact was really my own opinion.

-Tim-

Tim-- just wanted to say that I am very sorry for your loss. I have no children and I cannot understand your loss. When my brother died, I watched my parents’ anguish. There really are no words to describe that grief. My father died in nearly every sense. Twenty years after his death, my pain is still sharp and overwhelming at times and we don’t even mention his name around my father because he just can’t take it. I pray that you have every possible solace.