O'Malley: Pope to be told church here (Ireland) 'on edge of collapse'

[DawnInTexas]

Pope to be told church here ‘on edge of collapse’

…Fr Flannery said Cardinal O’Malley told the association that the Irish church had a decade, at most, to avoid falling over the edge and “becoming like other European countries” where religion is marginal to society.

Previously sceptical about the Apostolic Visitation to Ireland ordered by Pope Benedict, Fr Flannery said that in the light of Cardinal O’Malley’s undertaking, “there may be some gleam of hope”…

God Bless you.
+Jesus, I Trust In You!
Love, Dawn

 

[kenofken]

There is hope if Rome and the bishops stop treating the Irish people as serfs whose fealty they can take for granted. They won’t make that change, of course, but they could. Most of the leaders still living who were responsible for the monstrous abuses there have been retained and held essentially blameless, with a corporate no-fault “mistakes were made” apology.

That is a truly amazing feat. They took a country where Catholic identity occupied almost an entire chromosome of people’s DNA for what, 14 centuries, and in the span of one generation, turned it into a European-style anti-religious society. Their own leaders did what centuries of brutally repressive occupations and famines failed to do. In secular terms, it would be like having a CEO and board of directors run Google into the ground in one quarter, and then getting bonuses for doing so. It staggers the imagination.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

The Church in Ireland has brought this upon themselves. I am amazed that they have ANY support from the people.

Nuns, brothers and Priests have all severely abused children in Ireland. Children were whipped, starved, tortured, sexually abused and the Church leaders would not do anything about this. Virtually every orphanage in the country (all run by the Church) had abuse in at least one form, and many of them had every form of abuse.

Nuns, Brothers and Priests were all abusing children sexually. Tye Bishops knew about this and covered it up. This has been discovered through documents that the Bishops wrote, and kept throughout the years.

Their problems were brought upon themselves. Their sexual abuse problem was MUCH worse than it was in the USA, and their abuse went so much further. The horrible physical and mental abuse that was done to innocent children is enough to drive almost anyone away from this church.

I would strongly recommend that you all do some real research about what went on in Ireland. You just might have a much better understanding of why so many Irish no longer want to have anything to do with the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[DawnInTexas]

The Church in Ireland has brought this upon themselves. I am amazed that they have ANY support from the people.

Nuns, brothers and Priests have all severely abused children in Ireland. Children were whipped, starved, tortured, sexually abused and the Church leaders would not do anything about this. Virtually every orphanage in the country (all run by the Church) had abuse in at least one form, and many of them had every form of abuse.

Nuns, Brothers and Priests were all abusing children sexually. Tye Bishops knew about this and covered it up. This has been discovered through documents that the Bishops wrote, and kept throughout the years.

Their problems were brought upon themselves. Their sexual abuse problem was MUCH worse than it was in the USA, and their abuse went so much further. The horrible physical and mental abuse that was done to innocent children is enough to drive almost anyone away from this church.

I would strongly recommend that you all do some real research about what went on in Ireland. You just might have a much better understanding of why so many Irish no longer want to have anything to do with the Roman Catholic Church.

And, I thought “Angela’s Ashes” was bad.

God Bless you.
+Jesus, I Trust In You!
Love, Dawn

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

Does anyone have any ideas as to why sexual abuse of minors became so prolific? Obviously it is abhorent in its essence, but what goes through the mind of a man of God when he’s abusing a child? Is there any kind of justification?

 

[colmcille1]

There is hope if Rome and the bishops stop treating the Irish people as serfs whose fealty they can take for granted. They won’t make that change, of course, but they could. Most of the leaders still living who were responsible for the monstrous abuses there have been retained and held essentially blameless, with a corporate no-fault “mistakes were made” apology.

That is a truly amazing feat. They took a country where Catholic identity occupied almost an entire chromosome of people’s DNA for what, 14 centuries, and in the span of one generation, turned it into a European-style anti-religious society. Their own leaders did what centuries of brutally repressive occupations and famines failed to do. In secular terms, it would be like having a CEO and board of directors run Google into the ground in one quarter, and then getting bonuses for doing so. It staggers the imagination.

Hi.
Could you please educate yourself.
Please check the figures.
How many priests were there in Ireland between 1932 and 1984? I pick these years because they cover the time period that abuse cases cover.
What percentage of priests were abusers?
When you bother your backside to do the research on these questions come back and tell us all about your findings.
And while you are at it could you also do some research into the PAGAN practices of tribes in both South America and Africa during the 19th and 20th centuries? In particular to child killing and mutilation. Can you please share the fruits of that research with us too.
I am Irish. The faith is strong here. Why? Because, despite an anti-Catholic national broadcaster, people still BELIEVE.
God Bless the Irish Catholic Church,
Colmcille.

 

[colmcille1]

The Church in Ireland has brought this upon themselves. I am amazed that they have ANY support from the people.

Nuns, brothers and Priests have all severely abused children in Ireland. Children were whipped, starved, tortured, sexually abused and the Church leaders would not do anything about this. Virtually every orphanage in the country (all run by the Church) had abuse in at least one form, and many of them had every form of abuse.

Nuns, Brothers and Priests were all abusing children sexually. Tye Bishops knew about this and covered it up. This has been discovered through documents that the Bishops wrote, and kept throughout the years.

Their problems were brought upon themselves. Their sexual abuse problem was MUCH worse than it was in the USA, and their abuse went so much further. The horrible physical and mental abuse that was done to innocent children is enough to drive almost anyone away from this church.

I would strongly recommend that you all do some real research about what went on in Ireland. You just might have a much better understanding of why so many Irish no longer want to have anything to do with the Roman Catholic Church.

Hi.
Could you too please do the research I suggested for our resident pagan.
And could you please stop the hysterical tone and learn the truth.
What you have posted is the stuff of our national broadcaster here. They are an anti-Catholic organisation.
God Bless the Irish Catholic Church,
Colmcille.

 

[imbroglio]

Hi.
Could you too please do the research I suggested for our resident pagan.
And could you please stop the hysterical tone and learn the truth.
What you have posted is the stuff of our national broadcaster here. They are an anti-Catholic organisation.
God Bless the Irish Catholic Church,
Colmcille.

Old Medic is telling the truth. You might want to do a little research yourself. How can you fix a problem if you deny the problem exists?

 

[1234]

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Google and read the Ryan report, if you can stand it. Watch the videos of some of those testifying.

advertiser.ie/mayo/article/12623

“More than 1,700 witnesses who relived their terrifying and sickening experiences for the Commission have to be commended for their courage. This abuse took place in **216 institutions, with more allegations made against the Christian Brothers than all other male orders combined. **”

Most of the abuse was at the hands of the Irish Christian Brothers, tho’ some priests were notorious sexual abusers and even the laity working in the institutions were involved. The abuse was physical, sexual and psychological, aimed both at boys and girls.

An article in the current New York Times Magazine describes much lower Mass attendance, which, however, remains high as compared with the US. Canon lawyers have made it all but impossible to leave the RCC, ie. leaving the rolls --the church is virtually combined with the state in Ireland. Religious vocations have all but vanished and priestly ordinations are extremely low (Irish priests used to supply the world).

The ultimate tragedy is that Rome refuses to take responsibility for the abuse, in enabling its leadership to keep it covered up for so many decades, despite the fact that Rome knew about some of the worst priestly offenders. Many formerly devout Irish, including older women, the backbone of the Irish church, are very bitter about this.

youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4

 

[colmcille1]

Old Medic is telling the truth. You might want to do a little research yourself. How can you fix a problem if you deny the problem exists?

Hi.
Wrong.
There were more children abused in the community i.e. by members of the abused’ extended family. This is contained in a report that is conveniently ignored by the media in Ireland.
Again, I ask: how many priests were abusers? What percentage is that figure of the total?
Answer these questions please and then maybe we can have a clear-eyed debate.
God Bless the Irish Catholic Church,
Colmcille.

 

[colmcille1]

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Google and read the Ryan report, if you can stand it. Watch the videos of some of those testifying.

advertiser.ie/mayo/article/12623

“More than 1,700 witnesses who relived their terrifying and sickening experiences for the Commission have to be commended for their courage. This abuse took place in **216 institutions, with more allegations made against the Christian Brothers than all other male orders combined. **”

Most of the abuse was at the hands of the Irish Christian Brothers, tho’ some priests were notorious sexual abusers and even the laity working in the institutions were involved. The abuse was physical, sexual and psychological, aimed both at boys and girls.

An article in the current New York Times Magazine describes much lower Mass attendance, which, however, remains high as compared with the US. Canon lawyers have made it all but impossible to leave the RCC, ie. leaving the rolls --the church is virtually combined with the state in Ireland. Religious vocations have all but vanished and priestly ordinations are extremely low (Irish priests used to supply the world).

The ultimate tragedy is that Rome refuses to take responsibility for the abuse, in enabling its leadership to keep it covered up for so many decades, despite the fact that Rome knew about some of the worst priestly offenders. Many formerly devout Irish, including older women, the backbone of the Irish church, are very bitter about this.

youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4

Hi.
Could you please do the above sums as well?
There are many who have an axe to grind with the Church. This axe is sharpened daily by the national broadcaster here. The print media is hugely anti-Catholic as well.
They thrive on this.
Fact is, people still have a strong faith in this country. Many families still attend Mass. People still proudly place religious pictures and statuary in their homes.
When you get over your hysterical bias, perhaps we can have a constructive debate.
As it is, I have heard all the same axe-grinding charges before.
God Bless the Irish Catholic Church,
Colmcille.

 

[1234]

Hi.
Could you please do the above sums as well?
There are many who have an axe to grind with the Church. This axe is sharpened daily by the national broadcaster here. The print media is hugely anti-Catholic as well.
They thrive on this.
Fact is, people still have a strong faith in this country. Many families still attend Mass. People still proudly place religious pictures and statuary in their homes.
When you get over your hysterical bias, perhaps we can have a constructive debate.
As it is, I have heard all the same axe-grinding charges before.
God Bless the Irish Catholic Church,
Colmcille.

You do the Irish Catholic Church no favors by dismissing the backlash.

The point is, not all or even most of the abuse was performed by priests. It was performed mainly by brothers, mainly Irish Christian Brothers, who used to be very numerous. Working in large institutions with little or no supervision.

Terrible abuse documented by many testimonies.

The terms Ireland and Catholicism used to be virtually synonymous. Not any more, it would seem. Of course, mass attendance remains high–40%, almost twice that in the US. But much lower than it used to be. And surprising groups are dropping out–older folks, those that were abused or who knew family members or friends who were. Plummeting numbers entering seminaries and religious life also are testimony, groups that were the backbone of the Catholic Church.

Ireland has been betrayed—* by its own.*

By the abuse itself, performed by Irish on Irish.

By the coverup and inadequate response by the Catholic Church, which greatly disappoints the Irish, and plays into the hands of the church’s detractors.

 

[Luke65]

Our Lady of Good Success (17th century):

“Thus I make it known to you that from the end of the 19th century and from shortly after the middle of the 20th century…

“The Sacrament of Holy Orders will be ridiculed, oppressed, and despised, for in this Sacrament, the Church of God and even God Himself is scorned and despised since He is represented in His priests. The Devil will try to persecute the ministers of the Lord in every possible way; he will labor with cruel and subtle astuteness to deviate them from the spirit of their vocation and will corrupt many of them. These depraved priests, who will scandalize the Christian people, will make the hatred of bad Catholics and the enemies of the Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church fall upon all priests.

"This apparent triumph of Satan will bring enormous sufferings to the good Pastors of the Church, the many good priests, and the Supreme Pastor and Vicar of Christ on Earth, who, a prisoner in the Vatican, will shed secret and bitter tears in the presence of his God and Lord, beseeching light, sanctity, and perfection for all the clergy of the world, of whom he is King and Father.

“Further, in these unhappy times, there will be unbridled luxury which will ensnare the rest into sin and conquer innumerable frivolous souls who will be lost. Innocence will almost no longer be found in children, nor modesty in women. In this supreme moment of need of the Church, the one who should speak will fall silent."

I will not “fall silent”, but neither will I be a “bad Catholic” and smear all of our good and holy priests and religious with a broad brush of contempt - a righteous anger grossly distorted by the effects of Original Sin unbridled by Grace. To speak the “truth” without charity is nothing but a clanging gong - which is all I heard from some of these posts. Repent! Pray and do penance for the sake of all who love God.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Very true.

 

[kenofken]

Hi.
Could you please educate yourself.
Please check the figures.
How many priests were there in Ireland between 1932 and 1984? I pick these years because they cover the time period that abuse cases cover.
What percentage of priests were abusers?
When you bother your backside to do the research on these questions come back and tell us all about your findings.
And while you are at it could you also do some research into the PAGAN practices of tribes in both South America and Africa during the 19th and 20th centuries? In particular to child killing and mutilation. Can you please share the fruits of that research with us too.
I am Irish. The faith is strong here. Why? Because, despite an anti-Catholic national broadcaster, people still BELIEVE.
God Bless the Irish Catholic Church,
Colmcille.

Well look, as long as the child rape and torture is “pretty good” compared to desperately poor developing nations, I guess we can all go home. There’s nothing to complain about.

Moral relativism, anyone?

 

[estesbob]

Well look, as long as the child rape and torture is “pretty good” compared to desperately poor developing nations, I guess we can all go home. There’s nothing to complain about.

Moral relativism, anyone?

I have great faith that the Catholic Church in Ireland will persevere. Especially since I suspect they are smart enough not to take the advice of a pagan on how to proceed.

 

[colmcille1]

Well look, as long as the child rape and torture is “pretty good” compared to desperately poor developing nations, I guess we can all go home. There’s nothing to complain about.

Moral relativism, anyone?

Hi.
Who said that?
There you go, twisting the debate to suit your tiny mind.
I mentioned your fellow pagans because I wanted you to know that Satan delights in them.
I’m not discussing relativism, moral or otherwise.
Do the research.
Study Stalin. Hitler. Mao.
Study first principles of human conduct.
God Bless the Irish Catholic Church,
Colmcille.

 

[kenofken]

I have great faith that the Catholic Church in Ireland will persevere. Especially since I suspect they are smart enough not to take the advice of a pagan on how to proceed.

Lots of organizations “persevere” but what does that mean? Scientology perseveres. I’ve no doubt they’re smart enough not to take my advice. Problem is, they’re apparently “too smart” to take the advice of their own leaders who see the writing on the wall and “too smart” to take the advice of the ordinary decent ground-level laity who have made the Church what it has been for countless centuries there. Any and all agendas aside, it really comes down to this: the Irish people are not stupid, and they are not consigned to the short lives and senseless abuse that they endured a half a century or half a millennium ago.

The hierarchy in Ireland can either begin to demonstrate REAL contrition and accountability to its people OR they can circle the wagons, crack the whip on orthodoxy, hide out in their mansions and preach to empty pews, and hope some rich billionaire wills them the money to keep paying the bills. There is no door number three. As grating as it may be to hear that from a pagan, I don’t take credit for that insight, and I’m by no means the only one pointing it out. I’m saying nothing materially different from O’Malley.

 

[irishpatrick]

The hierarchy in Ireland can either begin to demonstrate REAL contrition and accountability to its people OR they can circle the wagons, crack the whip on orthodoxy, hide out in their mansions and preach to empty pews, and hope some rich billionaire wills them the money to keep paying the bills. There is no door number three. As grating as it may be to hear that from a pagan, I don’t take credit for that insight, and I’m by no means the only one pointing it out. I’m saying nothing materially different from O’Malley.

I am confused. Are you saying return to true orthodoxy is a bad thing? Is it not a fact that had the Church (and its Priests) remain true to the faith, none of these horrible things would have happened?

 

[kenofken]

Hi.
Who said that?
There you go, twisting the debate to suit your tiny mind.
I mentioned your fellow pagans because I wanted you to know that Satan delights in them.
I’m not discussing relativism, moral or otherwise.
Do the research.
Study Stalin. Hitler. Mao.
Study first principles of human conduct.
God Bless the Irish Catholic Church,
Colmcille.

If Satan delights in me, it’s only because I’m the Village Fool who amuses him sometimes. He takes much more delight in men who are clever and ambitious enough to install themselves as bishops and serve His agenda from inside the Church’s own walls. The Church’s own arrogant men have wounded your organization in a way that Stalin, Hitler and Mao never could.

“The Enemy” as you often call him, has no power to take your Church by storm. Nor did he need to once he found the right men to invite him inside. He now has a building pass, the CEO’s parking space and a corner office. It was no pagan or atheist dictator nor even Satanist who had the clout to do all that.

When you argue that the scandal is “not that bad” because the levels of abuse are in line or less than contemporary culture, that is the living embodiment of morally relativistic reasoning. Let’s back this up a step and recall that we are talking about the predation of children. This is the one crime for which Jesus advocated the death penalty. How can we excuse that at any level or even try to “put it in context” without making a foray into moral relativism? If we say that secular professions abuse kids at, say, 4% and priests “only” 2%, should we say the 2% is “pretty good” or even “twice as good.”? The percentage of abusing priests has never been the primary issue.

The issue is the 100% failure rate of the bishops to exercise even minimal moral authority on behalf of the most vulnerable in their charge. This is not the isolated case of a well-meaning man dropping the ball amidst misguidance from the psychological profession, though there were those cases. This is about decades of calculated and deliberate actions to conceal crimes and withhold evidence, assist in the national and international movement of active predators and to dismiss and even intimidate witnesses and victims.

At the end of the day, how I feel will have no bearing whatsoever in the fate of the Church in Ireland, or anywhere else, and that’s as it should be. It rests solely with the actions of the Church leadership there. The Irish are fair minded and big hearted people, but they are not fools.

 

[kenofken]

I am confused. Are you saying return to true orthodoxy is a bad thing? Is it not a fact that had the Church (and its Priests) remain true to the faith, none of these horrible things would have happened?

Of course it’s fair game to talk about orthodoxy, but the Church leaders have been using that and culture war issues to avoid engaging the real and pressing problems of abuse. It’s rather like calling an office staff meeting to reinforce dress code policy while the building is on fire. No, I don’t believe the abuse in any way had to do with some ambiguity about Church teachings on sexuality. For most of the time when that abuse occurred in Ireland, it was just about the most straightlaced and un-sexually liberated society in the western world. These priests and brothers who abused didn’t just get swept up in the abandon of Haight-Asbury. This was about abuse of power, the kind of abuse that occurs 100% of the time in all human endeavors when one class of human beings has near absolute power over another and no accountability or transparency for their own actions.