Omission of Gloria and more

[PacoG]

• Almost no one knelt throughout the Eucharistic Prayer (though this seems to be common in all churches here in France )

If I recall correctly, the practice of kneeling from the beginning of the EP to the end of the Great Amen is an adaption approved for the United States. Most other places, the faithful kneel only for the consecration.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

 

[JMJ_coder]

I would assume the music was the best they could do. As one who dresses casually for Mass - I figure God knows and sees me as I am. I respect his worship place and don’t dress inappropriately but I don’t dress up.

No, actually the cantor sounded like she had a decent voice and the electronic organist seemed talented enough. It was the music itself that was dreadful and not good enough for the Liturgy. As for the clothes, there are threads galore on it and we don’t need to rehash that here.

 

[JMJ_coder]

So it appears I can’t count!

Yup, good at math, bad at arithmetic. :hypno:

 

[JMJ_coder]

1. omission of the Gloria
2. refrain of the Responsorial Psalm a paraphrase/adaption
3. for the Alleluia → alleluia, alleluia, alleluia for the glory and the honor are His
4. possible altered verse for Alleluia
5. repeat Alleluia without verse after Gospel
6. music throughout consecration (I’m 99.99% sure this is a no-no)
7. Mystery of Faith → Christ has died, alleluia, Christ is risen, alleluia, Christ will come again, alleluia
8. Great Amen → Amen, alleluia, amen, alleluia, amen, amen, alleluia, alleluia
9. Lamb of God → Lamb of God…Bread of Life… – you know the poetic verses
10. lay extraordinary minsters of holy Communion get and return consecrated Hosts to and from the tabernacle
11. lay extraordinary minsters of holy Communion pick up their own vessels from the altar
12. vessels used were wooden with a metallic interior

 

[JMJ_coder]

So #1 is a no-no – I don’t think it was accidental (I don’t know how the Priest, cantor, organist, and the entire congregation could have it slip their collective minds).

#6 is a no-no – but, I more-or-less already knew that.

#9 is a no-no – I thought I recalled those verses being clarified as not allowed.

#10-#11 are no-no’s – but, sadly I do know that this is common.

#12 is technically ok.

#2 – In the hymnal they had, the psalm had two refrains. The second refrain was an adaption, a paraphrase of the psalm. In the subtext credits, refrain was adapted by Sister so-and-so. Is an adapted text for the refrain of the responsorial psalm licit?

#3 – Is the alteration with the “glory and honor are His” in the Alleluia licit?

#4 – I don’t actually know if this was done. The first line I couldn’t really hear but it did sort of sound like some paraphrase. The second line sounded like it could be biblical. But, in any case would a paraphrased verse be licit?

#5 – Is the alleluia after the Gospel before the homily licit? Note, this didn’t take the place of the “Praise to You, Lord Jesus Christ”.

#7-#8 – are the added alleluia’s licit?

 

[johnignatius]

If I recall correctly, the practice of kneeling from the beginning of the EP to the end of the Great Amen is an adaption approved for the United States. Most other places, the faithful kneel only for the consecration.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Actually, I think I read that somewhere too, though I’m not sure. But anyway, almost no one knelt during the consecration either.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Actually, I think I read that somewhere too, though I’m not sure. But anyway, almost no one knelt during the consecration either.

Everyone in the Latin Rite everywhere is to kneel from the Sanctus to the Great Amen. In the United States, everyone in the Latin Rite is to kneel from the Agnus Dei to going up for Communion.

Yet, at that parish no one else knelt but my father and I.

 

[japhy]

Everyone in the Latin Rite everywhere is to kneel from the Sanctus to the Great Amen. In the United States, everyone in the Latin Rite is to kneel from the Agnus Dei to going up for Communion.

Actually, kneeling for the whole Eucharistic Prayer is not a universal practice in the Ordinary Form. The Latin GIRM speaks of kneeling from the epiclesis until after the priest’s genuflection after the consecration of the wine:
Genuflectant vero, nisi valetudinis causa, vel ob angustiam loci vel frequentiorem numerum adstantium aliasve rationabiles causas impediantur, ad consecrationem. Hi vero qui non genuflectunt ad consecrationem, inclinationem profundam peragant dum sacerdos genuflectit post consecrationem. … Ubi mos est, populum ab acclamatione Sanctus expleta usque ad finem Precis eucharisticae et ante Communionem quando sacerdos dicit Ecce Agnus Dei genuflexum manere, hic laudabiliter retinetur. (IGMR 43)

That says roughly: They kneel, unless prevented for good reason, for the Consecration. [This **includes the epiclesis, because GIRM 179 directs the deacon to kneel at the epiclesis, and it only makes sense that if the deacon at the altar has to kneel starting at the epiclesis, so should the non-ordained faithful.] If they cannot kneel during the consecration, they make a profound bow when the priest genuflects. … Where it is the custom of the people to kneel from after the Sanctus until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, and to kneel as the priest says “Behold, the Lamb of God…”, this is (or “may be”) laudably retained.
It’s in the US (and perhaps other places) that we kneel for the whole Eucharistic Prayer:
In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. (GIRM 43)

 

[johnignatius]

Yes in Scotland we kneel for even longer, from the suscipiat so everyone is kneeling throughout the prayer over the gifts, the sursum corda, the preface and the sanctus, and then right up to the great amen. Therefore, it’s actually a bit of a culture shock to have no one kneeling at all. There I was, popping up for the Our Father among the trees of everyone’s legs.
As for the rest of the stuff, was that all illicit too, or were some things acceptable?

 

[FrDavid96]

…

#2 – In the hymnal they had, the psalm had two refrains. The second refrain was an adaption, a paraphrase of the psalm. In the subtext credits, refrain was adapted by Sister so-and-so. Is an adapted text for the refrain of the responsorial psalm licit?

#3 – Is the alteration with the “glory and honor are His” in the Alleluia licit?

#4 – I don’t actually know if this was done. The first line I couldn’t really hear but it did sort of sound like some paraphrase. The second line sounded like it could be biblical. But, in any case would a paraphrased verse be licit?

#5 – Is the alleluia after the Gospel before the homily licit? Note, this didn’t take the place of the “Praise to You, Lord Jesus Christ”.

#7-#8 – are the added alleluia’s licit?

#2. Illicit. The words of Sacred Scripture must be from an approved source. They cannot be paraphrased. The problem here is that the missallette and hymnal companies continue to re-phrase the psalms (although they’re doing less of this than they did in the past). It’s less of a problem if the entire response is repeated (in fact, nothing realy wrong with it) and only a slight problem when a phrase of the sentence is repeated (that’s what the companies have mostly gone-to lately). But again, the translations of Sacred Scripture must always come from an approved source and one that is approved for use at the Mass–only the actual texts found in the Lectionary itself meet these qualifications.

#3 illicit

#4 (a repeat of 3) also illicit

#5 alleluia after the Gospel: illicit

#7 the only word for the “great Amen” is amen. Nothing else can be added. No alleluia or anything else.

#8 although the verses “Lamb of God…have mercy on us” can be repeated as often as necessary, nothing else can be added here, and the words cannot be changed.

Lastly, wooden vessels for the Body/Blood are not permitted, not even if they are lined with gold.