Omnipotency Revisited.

[greylorn]

I agree there isn’t any promise never to create another erg of energy. I do believe there are promises of God to never annihilate his creation (ie - stop thinking and willing its existence).

What I have come to learn is that there is another creation going on that far exceeds the physical world. It is called conversion and growth in holiness. God is re-creating the world from within - giving people new lives with new hearts … a creation that is still going on and will continue until the 2nd coming of Christ. Oops … let me re-phrase that … actually it is his 3rd coming … since Christ came to the world in a different way through the gift of His Holy Spirit.

JK
While I appreciate your devotion to your beliefs, they are way to mystical for me. I operate within a world of scientific information and logical argument. Although I also operate outside of that world, far outside by the standards of most believers in religion, I find that the nether regions of the “spiritual” universe are as real, and as confused, as those stuck in physical bodies.

Your talk of multiple comings, references to the ill-defined “holy spirit,” have no meaning in the context of a serious universe. I do not mean to offend your beliefs, but if you were to subscribe to even a simplistic journal such as “Science News,” or “Discovery,” you would get it that we live in a universe which contains about as many galaxies as there are grains of sand on our planet’s beaches.

After spending a year in study, kindly come back with an explanation of why a God capable of creating such an expansive, magnificent universe, would have produced a planet full of pinheads who needed even one “coming?”

 

[grannymh]

kindly come back with an explanation of why a God capable of creating such an expansive, magnificent universe, would have produced a planet full of pinheads who needed even one “coming?”

Explanation: God’s love is all powerful.

 

[greylorn]

First law of thermodynamics - Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It can only change forms. In any process, the total energy of the universe remains the same.

When Greylorn talks about the first law of thermodynamics, the context is the universal system we live in. In that context, I agree with science.

Where I disagree is the orgin of the energy. The law of thermodynamics clearly says that energy is not created or destroyed in the closed system of our universe.

I believe that there was a time when the energy in our system DID NOT exist. That does NOT negate the law of thermodynamics. It just means that the law only applies to what NOW exists.

I believe before the creation of the universe, only God in Spirit existed. That comes from a personal experience. How God was able to put the “bee in the bottle” is beyond me. But now that the bee is in the bottle, it is a closed system and yes, the law of thermodynamics applies in that sense. It does not apply in the context of what existed BEFORE the universe - although the definition is stretched to mean that the universe always existed.

Bottom line is that you do not believe that the energy conservation law is valid.

Your belief about the origin of energy contradicts the energy conservation law. That makes you smarter than the most brilliant physicists.

The energy conservation law does not state that energy is conserved only in a closed universe. That is either something that you made up, or something that a bartender told you. The energy conservation law is absolute.

Absolute.

That means, as absolute as God.

You were not around at the origin of the universe, nor was I, so our “spiritual” experiences are as relevant as a beer can opener in a world of snap-top lids.

 

[grannymh]

Your belief about the origin of energy contradicts the energy conservation law. That makes you smarter than the most brilliant physicists.

Explanation: God is all knowing as well as all loving.

 

[jkiernan56]

Bottom line is that you do not believe that the energy conservation law is valid.

Your belief about the origin of energy contradicts the energy conservation law. That makes you smarter than the most brilliant physicists.

The energy conservation law does not state that energy is conserved only in a closed universe. That is either something that you made up, or something that a bartender told you. The energy conservation law is absolute.

Absolute.

That means, as absolute as God.

You were not around at the origin of the universe, nor was I, so our “spiritual” experiences are as relevant as a beer can opener in a world of snap-top lids.

You’re right that I don’t understand the law of energy conservation … I told you I am like a 1st grader in a physics class with you when it comes to science with you … I don’t know how to reconcile the law that you consistently remark is absolute and not just for closed systems … The framework I am thinking in is for a closed system … so I need to learn alot more about this law … but having said that … .I have to tell you that I have experienced a higher law … called Grace … and it would be intellectual suicide for me not to acknowledge the truth I came to know is real and absolute … NOTHING in all the created world has to exist … God could have continued in BEING for all eternity without every having created ANYTHING … that includes any energy system … or what have you … the Universe is willed … you and I are willed … we are in the mind and will of God to exist … that was my experience …

 

[greylorn]

Explanation: God’s love is all powerful.

Ah, yes— God’s love for sinners [edited].

Tell me, how was God’s love manifested for the victims of the Jericho massacre [edited]?

I suspect that the all-powerful component of God’s love lies primarily it its ability to whitewash the obvious complaints that common sense would ordinarily disclose.

 

[greylorn]

Explanation: God is all knowing as well as all loving.

Do remember that these principles are your beliefs.

That they are shared by a few million others does not make them true. Agreement is not truth.

I’ve discussed the “loving” attribute, and simply do not believe it. I’ll discuss it again. The Church teaches that God sends people like me who believe things the Church does not, to hell. Sending souls to hell for heresy, disobedience, murdering one or a few thousand people, or for polishing off two beers and a can of brown beans before every Sunday mass, is not an act of love. Sending people to eternal damnation is the ultimate expression of dislike and disapproval.

I suppose that you’ll want to engage the human “be right” process and declare that God loves the sinners in hell. If so, your next assignment is to define “love.” You’ll want to start your own thread for that, because this one cannot withstand the weight of the inevitable bull poo certain to result therefrom.

 

[Shike]

Ah, yes— God’s love for sinners [edited].

Tell me, how was God’s love manifested for the victims of the Jericho massacre [edited]?

I suspect that the all-powerful component of God’s love lies primarily it its ability to whitewash the obvious complaints that common sense would ordinarily disclose.

These are good theology questions. I don’t have all the answers but some insights might come from considering the style of various ancient writings (not like modern novels with psychoanalysis); also I’ve heard and now start to see that the book of Joshua is trying to show God’s faithfulness to His chosen people. Some would call that elitism, I wouldn’t. Especially with a Savior that would die on a cross and open His forgiveness to all who want it.

 

[Shike]

Do remember that these principles are your beliefs.

That they are shared by a few million others does not make them true. Agreement is not truth.

I’ve discussed the “loving” attribute, and simply do not believe it. I’ll discuss it again. The Church teaches that God sends people like me who believe things the Church does not, to hell. Sending souls to hell for heresy, disobedience, murdering one or a few thousand people, or for polishing off two beers and a can of brown beans before every Sunday mass, is not an act of love. Sending people to eternal damnation is the ultimate expression of dislike and disapproval.

I suppose that you’ll want to engage the human “be right” process and declare that God loves the sinners in hell. If so, your next assignment is to define “love.” You’ll want to start your own thread for that, because this one cannot withstand the weight of the inevitable bull poo certain to result therefrom.

The Church teaches that there are grave matters, and that under the right conditions it is mortal sin; dying with unrepented mortal sin will get you to hell. As for the individual cases, no one can know except you if you committed mortal sins or not.
(it is annoying when someone says you’re going to hell like it’s some fact)

Could it be that we send ourselves to hell? CS. Lewis thought so; a great book is called the Great Divorce (I haven’t read it yet, though).

PS>What if God loved you so much that He respected your choice to not love Him? Just saying.
ciao.

 

[jkiernan56]

Ah, yes— God’s love for sinners [edited].

Tell me, how was God’s love manifested for the victims of the Jericho massacre, [edited]

I suspect that the all-powerful component of God’s love lies primarily it its ability to whitewash the obvious complaints that common sense would ordinarily disclose.

Greylorn, I really do respect your thoughts and feelings on all that you shared here … every one of us if we are honest will admit that we also struggle with understanding how the real world can be reconciled with what we have come to know is the truth … and I really like someone who is so real and genuine like you … you remind me so much of CS Lewis … please read his opening chapter in The Problem of Pain … and how everything you stated above is so legitimate for discussion … and how it seemingly contradicts the truth … and no one should throw stones at you for sharing your struggle … for me I have come to know the truth is not an idea or something written down on paper … it is a Person … Christ

 

[grannymh]

Ah, yes— God’s love for sinners [edited].

Tell me, how was God’s love manifested for the victims of the Jericho massacre [edited]?

I suspect that the all-powerful component of God’s love lies primarily it its ability to whitewash the obvious complaints that common sense would ordinarily disclose.

Pardon me. Is that last statement non sequitur ?

God’s love for sinners is the same as His love for the victims of any massacre including abortion. His love is unconditional. We are the ones which make it conditional by choosing to accept or reject.

 

[grannymh]

Quote:
Originally Posted by grannymh forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Explanation: God is all knowing as well as all loving.

Do remember that these principles are your beliefs.

That statement is your belief.

That they are shared by a few million others does not make them true. Agreement is not truth.

Truth does not depend on agreement. Truth depends on being true period. Something like the laws of physics?

I’ve discussed the “loving” attribute, and simply do not believe it. I’ll discuss it again. The Church teaches that God sends people like me who believe things the Church does not, to hell. Sending souls to hell for heresy, disobedience, murdering one or a few thousand people, or for polishing off two beers and a can of brown beans before every Sunday mass, is not an act of love. Sending people to eternal damnation is the ultimate expression of dislike and disapproval.

I really don’t think you are a model for hell-goers.

I suppose that you’ll want to engage the human “be right” process and declare that God loves the sinners in hell. If so, your next assignment is to define “love.”

It seems to me that your first assignment is to define hell. And what, in heaven’s name, is eternal damnation? Would it make more sense to say that the ultimate expression of dislike and disapproval describes hell?

You’ll want to start your own thread for that, because this one cannot withstand the weight of the inevitable bull poo certain to result therefrom.

Sorry, I’ve already learned something new today. I’ll look up bull poo tomorrow.

The First Law is clear, direct, and self contained

The above sentence is taken out of context from a previous post. It serves as a good example of what can be learned from physical evidence. The OP topic is asking something that goes beyond physical evidence and personal prejudice. When one rereads posts, one finds a lot of sound reasoning which understandably is not in the same category as physics. This does not, of itself, make the conclusions false.


Blessings,
granny

 

[jkiernan56]

Truth does not depend on agreement. Truth depends on being true period.

Very well said Granny. Truth depends on something being TRUE … because TRUTH is an objective reality … independant of ourselves. And remember what Pontius Pilate said to Jesus when Christ said to him that He came into the world to testify to the truth … and Pilate responded … “what is truth?”

What is so absolutely amazing is that here in Person was TRUTH Itself … the one who was always with the Father … eternally begotten … the very Word of God … the Word that became flesh in a Person … the eternal now visible in a Person … the mind of God now heard in a Person … The Love of God now seen in a Person … Christ …

 

[jkiernan56]

Original posting by Greylorn -

"I suppose that you’ll want to engage the human “be right” process and declare that God loves the sinners in hell. If so, your next assignment is to define “love.”

Your response Granny to Greylorn -

It seems to me that your first assignment is to define hell. And what, in heaven’s name, is eternal damnation? Would it make more sense to say that the ultimate expression of dislike and disapproval describes hell?

What I would say hell is … is a total rejection of Love … an inability to Love … to give or receive Love … and since the very nature of God is LOVE, a person in hell is one who in by totally rejecting Love, in and of itself … that is a state of hell. Only when you truly Love are you like God.

Greylorn, you ask a very good question - where is God’s love for those who are in hell? It seems like the antithesis of Love. That is an extremely difficult question to answer. It was the cost of giving us in TRUTH … a very REAL free will. Giving and receiving Love is not something imposed on us. And we are free to reject Love … ultimately those who go to hell are not sent there by God … but rather anyone who goes to hell is there because of their rejection of Love … why God continues to keep these beings in existence for the rest of eternity is beyond me at this point … but my final conclusion is that God saw the Good that would ultimately result as a consequence of giving us free will … and how He would rescue mankind from his slavery to sin … to a rejection of love that leads some to ultimate alienation from God who is Love Itself … to be separated from God is a state of hell … a place people go because of their own free choices and volition.

 

[greylorn]

What I would say hell is … is a total rejection of Love … an inability to Love … to give or receive Love … and since the very nature of God is LOVE, a person in hell is one who in by totally rejecting Love, in and of itself … that is a state of hell. Only when you truly Love are you like God.

Greylorn, you ask a very good question - where is God’s love for those who are in hell? It seems like the antithesis of Love. That is an extremely difficult question to answer. It was the cost of giving us in TRUTH … a very REAL free will. Giving and receiving Love is not something imposed on us. And we are free to reject Love … ultimately those who go to hell are not sent there by God … but rather anyone who goes to hell is there because of their rejection of Love … why God continues to keep these beings in existence for the rest of eternity is beyond me at this point … but my final conclusion is that God saw the Good that would ultimately result as a consequence of giving us free will … and how He would rescue mankind from his slavery to sin … to a rejection of love that leads some to ultimate alienation from God who is Love Itself … to be separated from God is a state of hell … a place people go because of their own free choices and volition.

JK,
I appreciate your willingness to acknowledge a difficult question. Most others would find a way to deny its value.

Your reward is an even more difficult question, but it seems off point for this thread so I will start a new one. Please look for, “No poltroons in heaven.”