omnipresence?

[teadough]

I realize there is the notion of her being sinless, that’s a call out of men’s minds not from Yahweh’s word.

So,are you saying you do not believe in any sort of traditions that are not mentioned in the Bible?

By the way. What denomination do you belong to?It may be easier to understand your background if we knew that. For the record I was once a protestant. Actually,I get Confirmed this Easter

It’s good talking to you either way

 

[astrocometman]

Where did I say she was crucial? I’m just responding to the erroneous assumption that a saint would by necessity have to posses omnisomething. The other stuff is just irrelevant and tired bilgewater.
There was no necessity for your making a claim of necessity nor is the convo at this point where it was when it originated. There would be a necessity for sants in heaven to receive the fulness of their reward to remain coherent in their minds being continually flooded with prayers. The redemption is not complete as there has been no judgment. That being the case although dead saints are in heaven they are yet to be fully endowed through glorification, that is still future. In that light you see souls under the Altar in Revelation who cry out for justice. These are still in a state of mind that mirrors times BEFORE the period of “No Mores” that are written earmarking times that come after the firey destruction and renovation of earth.

The dead in Yeshua are in heaven, yet are not fully endowed with the glory that we hope for in eternity. I see nothing that gives them a status or power in the church age. This is especially interesting as you find some groups making claims that are quite specific in their character. You have to wonder why Protestant believers have no stories among themselves about Mary just as you wonder why Catholics have particular characteristics to the sightings of apparitions that you don’t hear about from Protestants by and large. What might that be, deception perhaps?

  What you were responding to is in context

 

[teadough]

You have to wonder why Protestant believers have no stories among themselves about Mary

I think you mean that only in the last 400+ years have you no stories among themselves about Mary,right?

Here is what Martin Luther says “[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).”

and
“It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin” (Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527)."

 

[teadough]

"What might that be, deception perhaps? "

The only people calling it deception are the same people who only believe that you can get instruction from the Bible alone. Trust me…there are plenty of protestants who have had apparitions of Mary. The only thing is that many of them are Catholic now.
What does certain protestant say. Well, if they were like me they would only write it off as a deception of the devil.

 

[Scottgun]

Well, if you had no thought in regard to matters that have been raised why comment? I don’t discuss things that don’t meet my interest you have no reason to do otherwise.

I was was responding specifically to main point of the thread good gravvy.

 

[astrocometman]

I think you mean that only in the last 400+ years have you no stories among themselves about Mary,right?

Here is what Martin Luther says “[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).”

Like ourselves Martin Luther was a man. He had passions and was impressed in what ways were harmonious with his worldview. While his thoughts are respectable like your own or anyone else they are not the word of Yahweh, so we must measure them in context of his humanity. In that light you are I can choose anyone who is eligible to be thought of in terms of nobility in scripture and elevate them to what level suits our imagination. We have to be careful in our own valuations and certainly keep in mind that other mortal beings are in the same place. One thing in what you’ve cited is the scripture says that Yeshua was Truth personified, that he was the wisedom of Yahweh manifest, etc. There is nothing in scripture that speaks overtly in that way about anybody but him. This doesn’t mean that others weren’t noble, etc., but to ‘personify’ these virtues in one who was born in Adam is on the other side of what reason allows from what scripture reveals. What does scripture say is my questiion, does it speak in terms of ultimate values and virtues in human beings? The only one I am aware comes close would be Mechisedec, I wouldn’t rank Mary as the personification of Godly characteristics when only Yahweh can personify his characteristics in total in the bodily form. . B]

and
“It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin” (Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527)."

The most that can be said about this is that it’s highly speculative with nothing in scripture to give it precedence. Mary was born in the line of Adam, she needed salvation just like anybody else. If one wants to go as far as say she is sinless that’s a perogative that imaginings allow, I see no basis for it other than romanticized thinking.

 

[teadough]

The most that can be said about this is that it’s highly speculative with nothing in scripture to give it precedence. Mary was born in the line of Adam, she needed salvation just like anybody else. If one wants to go as far as say she is sinless that’s a perogative that imaginings allow, I see no basis for it other than romanticized thinking.

You keep mentioning that scripture does not teach these things directly, but scripture does not say a lot of things. One thing in particular is the fact that the Bible does not teach that it alone is the only means to which we can have an understanding of God. Nowhere in scripture does the Bible state that…

You said Mary was born in the line of Adam,well,so was Enoch and Elijah and as you can tell they did not end up with the same fate as most people. Do you really think Jesus could be born in a body that had sin in it? How can that be?

The reason I mentioned Martin Luther is because there was no Protestants until after him. He still believed what the early Church Fathers taught. These same teachings the Catholic Church still hold onto after all these years. Martin Luther still believed in the reality of Jesus in the Eucharist. He understood what the end of John 6 meant. The end of John 6 is the fork in the road for you and I and it is spelled out crystal clear as to why Jesus’ followers left Him. It is a hard teaching. This is part of the narrow road that Jesus speaks of. Which road will you take?

God Bless

 

[Valke2]

No, I was talking about Omnipresence. It just never occurred to me until I started praying to Mary and the Saints. When it comes to them helping us with our prayers I guess it boils down to time and they live in eternity and we don’t.

A question might be, if God is omnipresent, why speak to an intermediary. God is there with you whenyou make the prayer. It seems to me that if one is to use any intermediary to speak with God, whether it is through a priest, Mary, Abraham, Moses, whatever, there is an implied belief that God is not omnipresent or omnipotent or all knowing.

 

[astrocometman]

You keep mentioning that scripture does not teach these things directly, but scripture does not say a lot of things. One thing in particular is the fact that the Bible does not teach that it alone is the only means to which we can have an understanding of God. Nowhere in scripture does the Bible state that…

This is very true and I would not hesitate to affirm it. The Great Pyramid is an oracle of Yeshua, that structure did not come out of the mind of man, it is a testimony, an oracle, a map, it sits at the center of the earth’s land mass and its centerline is the axis of the earth. Who could calculate an alogrithm that does all that and more? So, yes there are other avenues of revelation, we mus examine them however, each and every man bearing witness in his heart and mind of what’s true. In my mind it doesn’t matter where truth comes from it’s whether or not it harmonizes with what’s known of the revelation of Yahweh. You see, it does not matter what anyone[s position is on the other side of Yahweh in this. Who he endorsed dirctly is a much higher endorsement than what somebody figured out in their mind to say, that’s what your reference did. He’s just a man, just like you or I. He writes these acollades about Mary. Since those things are implicitly stated or otherwise hinted from what I can see on what foundation does the idea stand? It does not harmonize with scripture is the biggest issue, men have turned the mother of Yeshua into something she can’t be. The only way for Mary to be what she is presented to be in Catholocism is for some very heavy layering onto what is written of her in scripture in another authority. Whether that authority be of Yahweh is what each one has to conclude for themselves. I am quite frank in presenting things, I hope that what I say makes sense just as what you would like me to think of aspects in your ideology. All of what’s been caked on to Mary, pardon the pun please is beyond belief in my view. I will admit not knowing the inner sanctum of Catholic theology. It need not be taken seriously any idea that the Vatican hasn’t been seriously flawed in its reality. There is no reason to buy into an ideology out of a system that has shown itself as vulnerable as any other to error. We have to be completely truthful about things, you know as well as I that the Catholic Church has had huge foibles that have soiled its garments. We as believers must first stand true to truth. The truth sets us free. With the truth of what we are working with in our choices of authorities I want to know on whose or what authority are the ideas about Mary baaed? Is this supposed to be based on a revelation, e.g. dream, a word of the Creator directly?: If these have been divinely bestowed on Mary why not a single word of it in scripture? Why not, if she is all of what has been attributed to her that kind of glory would not be absent in the bible. No way. That magnitude of being would be above Elijah and Enoch who did not die. It would be higher than what was attributed to Moses who Yahweh said would be "like Yahweh’ to the people. What Moses said was correlated to the Word of the Lord to Israel and Egypt as well. All of the Patriarchs, Mecesidec, she would be spoken to as these most notable in scripture’s pages. Doesn’t it strike you odd how far out of proportion to what’s said of Mary is in view in scripture. I don’t see any of the attributes in any relatable way in scripture to all that’s been said of Mary. Where does the Co-Mediator role come from, what does it mean? Who was the Mediator BEFORE Mary BECOMES Co-Mediator? That sort of thing does not harmonize with scripture. You can buy into the Pope received it from Yahweh if you’d like, Mary being Co-Mediator is begs for resolving smoothly with what’s in view with the Firstfruits From The Dead. Is Mary also understood in the role of co-creator as well? Please understand my only purpose is to get at what’s true. Protestants and Catholics have had these discussions before. I’ll return to complete this reply.

 

[teadough]

astrocometman​

The Great Pyramid is an oracle of Yeshua, that structure did not come out of the mind of man, it is a testimony, an oracle, a map, it sits at the center of the earth’s land mass and its centerline is the axis of the earth.

I don’t know what you are talking about here

Who he endorsed dirctly is a much higher endorsement than what somebody figured out in their mind to say, that’s what your reference did. He’s just a man, just like you or I

.

You have to understand what Apostolic succession is in regards to Jesus giving authority to Peter,which he in turn gave to the next Pope and so on.

It need not be taken seriously any idea that the Vatican hasn’t been seriously flawed in its reality. There is no reason to buy into an ideology out of a system that has shown itself as vulnerable as any other to error. We have to be completely truthful about things, you know as well as I that the Catholic Church has had huge foibles that have soiled its garments.

Please, for the sake of this forum give some examples (Moderator Note: In another thread. per the Forum Rules.)

With the truth of what we are working with in our choices of authorities I want to know on whose or what authority are the ideas about Mary baaed? Is this supposed to be based on a revelation, e.g. dream, a word of the Creator directly?: If these have been divinely bestowed on Mary why not a single word of it in scripture?

Once again you need to research and discover what Apostolic succession means and how Jesus gave authority to Peter.
MAtt16:18 18"And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades** will not overcome it."

Doesn’t it strike you odd how far out of proportion to what’s said of Mary is in view in scripture.

no not at all for the fact that we already discussed that the Bible does not teach that it alone is the only means of revelation.

Is Mary also understood in the role of co-creator as well?

No**

 

[teadough]

Once again, the reason I brought up Martin Luther was only to point out the obvious. He and many others still recognized her for what she is/was. They also recognized the Eucharist,too.

 

[astrocometman]

#29 Today, 9:01 am
astrocometman​

I don’t know what you are talking about here

Are you being earnest in saying you don’t know of the Great Pyramid as an oracle of the Word, among other things, that its measures are calculations assembled as elements in the overall scheme of the construction of the structure. In its measures it speaks to us, … it sits on the border and in the midst of Egypt as scripture describes in Isaiah 19.19. You’ll note in that section of Isaiah interesting statements concerning Yahweh having a relationship with the land of the Pharoahs, what does he say…? " 11Surely the princes of Zoan are fools, the counsel of the wise counsellors of Pharaoh is become brutish: how say ye unto Pharaoh, I am the son of the wise, the son of ancient kings? … 15 Neither shall there be any work for Egypt, which the head or tail, branch or rush, may do. 16In that day shall Egypt be like unto women: and it shall be afraid and fear because of the shaking of the hand of the LORD of hosts, which he shaketh over it. 17And the land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt, every one that maketh mention thereof shall be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the LORD of hosts, which he hath determined against it… 19 In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD. 20And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them. 21And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it. 22And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: …and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them. 23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians. 24In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: …saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

In the midst of Egypt stands the largest building in the world. The Great Pyramid is the only building standing on earth that survived the Flood. The Great Pyramid which a lot of believers haven’t the slightest is THE MYSTERY of mysteries on our planet. I rate the Shroud of Turin very high as well, both are mind bending artifacts, each balances the other in majesty and strangeness. The Great Pyramid is a matrix, in its measures are declarations no men could know when the structure was built, they also speak prophetically, the Great Pyramid has calculations centered on Yeshua’s birth, age at the time of his death. There is what’s called a Christ angle in the structure and there is a triangulation to Bethelem. I forget what this measurement is referred to, the word Bethlehem is in it and it has to do with a triangulation angle from the Great Pyramid that corresponds with a value that runs in its calculation whose lines project from the center line of the Great Pyramid to Bethlehem where Yeshua was born. There’s so much more to say, if you indeed are short on your knowledge of the Great Pyramid you need to have a word with me on it. There’s controversy to it as well, a very interesting controversy that you hear nothing about in most churches, the “other savior figures” that have been written about in folklore and in some instances purportedly of reports of actual happenings. There is a great mystery to things that are features of Yeshua’s faith. You can’t be full in your faith without getting to know about the Great Pyramid and what it conveys, if it isn’t from the mind of Yahweh it can’t be out of the mind of Satan. It can’t be out of the mind of Satan, that’s how profound the Great Pyramid is and I can say that without flinching. In fact I can tell you on what basis I can say what I’ve just said without flinching. Right now the point is that if you don’t know anything about the Great Pyramid, if I were you I’d get busy checking it out. If you’d like any references I’d be more than happy to turn you on to stuff that I’ve saved. It’s either magic or its the mind of Yahweh. It has to be the mind of Yahweh because there is no magic strong enough to conceive a structure of the Great Pyramid’s complexity and characteristics. …Got to go, I’ll answer the rest of your post later.

 

[teadough]

I hope I don’t sound rude but is there anyway you can post in normal sized letters? I am getting confused at whether or not your are quoting me,yourself,or someone else.

You said

It need not be taken seriously any idea that the Vatican hasn’t been seriously flawed in its reality. There is no reason to buy into an ideology out of a system that has shown itself as vulnerable as any other to error. We have to be completely truthful about things, you know as well as I that the Catholic Church has had huge foibles that have soiled its garments.

lets just skip the Jesus Pyramyd thing for now. It is really not relavent to anything in regards to Catholicism or protestant theology at this point in the conversation.

 

[astrocometman]

You have to understand what Apostolic succession is in regards to Jesus giving authority to Peter,which he in turn gave to the next Pope and so on.

I beg to disagree that I have to understand inventions by interlopers attempting to institutionalize something that never existed. There is precedence in Yeshua using the term “rock,.” he is the rock of our salvation.

Whereas there is the idea of Apostolic succession there are no bond, no free in the Kingdom of Yahweh. There are no potentates or men of authority who suppose they can kck you in and out of the Lord’s church when you don’t behave, letters heavy in fine purple. The scenario of organized religion has always been riding on the back of malformed imaginative notions, in particular a right that places one above all others and of course their court all costing the people plenty.

It is not my desire to have any stress with anyone in here, for me speaking truth as best as it can be apprehended is the task. The Rock is Yeshua, his church is built on his name. His name is empowered by his work. His work was based on a claim to be fulfilled. He fulfilled what no other could. He became the Truth, the whole Truth and Nothing but the Truth which is the impregnable rock on which the church is built, The Truth.

The church, the body rests on a foundation of reality. What other reality have any of us ever awoke in? We are here and we all do the same things, live and die. What you should desire most out of anyone is the truth, even when it hurts. The Truth of Yeshua is what saves, it being revealed by the quickening of the Holy Spirit. It didn’t matter who told the story, the Truth sets men free regardless of who His Word. The Catholic Church isn’t the only organization that’s under one man who is characterized as one that has a direct link to Yeshua. I’ve told you the Catholic Church is like any other, there is this Apostolic Succession notion that it created like I’m creating these words. Lets look at that for a second here.

When you observe the relationships of the Apostles with one another you will note equinimity in the character of their interacting. What since of authority or leadership among the Apostles was based on quite practical basis, etc. age, knowledge, etc. Those are the same things tha divide human beings anyway, there was nothing in the Apostle’s relating that indicated one was the One and the others were in subjection to him as an authority figure. The relationships of the Apostles had no authoritative atmospheres where one set a policy all the others followed under the impression Yeshua wanted them to be in subjection to the One. You don’t see Peter having any authority among the other Apostles as far as their relationships with one another are concerned. Again, we have a situation where we are representing diverse interpretations on the conversation between Peter and Yeshua. Yeshua was asking about people’s impressions of who he was. “Who do people say that I am?” To a Jewish mind that would have enormous implications, there was this expectation of one who would come down from heaven. The people had become well acquianted with “The Other World” of spirits and of course the existence of an irrisostaable power. Word of him was spoken profusely BEFORE he was born of a virgin. She was chosen to serve as a vessel. She was acceptable in the beloved, she was chosen before the foundation of the world for her role as we are for our own foreknew by him. I know of no one chosen, regardless of their role that become god figures to other believers to be on the underside of their claims of being the holder of the candle whose oil we must feed. Yeshua didn’t do to the church what men have done, he gave his life, everything is based on truth, the truth of him first, he is our rock, he built the church on the truth of who he was and the claims of his identity and performance. There are no broken or faithfulness other than his own and his ability to attribute it that determine salvation itself. How can he build the church on Peter when no man could lay the foundation and be its ultimate authority. Peter had no authority among his fellow Apostles and he certaintly cannot be the rock being referred to because that rock is filled with justice, truth and power. Peter can’t be an authority nor can anyone else, all another man can do is teach what you don’t know, but of course people have the need for pomp and circumstance and what have you,… you receive from Yahweh what image you impose on his revelation. I see no Apostolic succession I see servants through the Kingdom, no servant is a master in another man’s house .

 

[astrocometman]

I hope I don’t sound rude but is there anyway you can post in normal sized letters? I am getting confused at whether or not your are quoting me,yourself,or someone else.

You said

lets just skip the Jesus Pyramyd thing for now. It is really not relavent to anything in regards to Catholicism or protestant theology at this point in the conversation.

It may or may not be relevant, depending on what angle you are basing your argument. There are any number of avenues that have points of origin one may employ to run a line of reasoning to Yeshua. When you talk about the Caholic Church that line runs to Peter where it falls flat when the saying of “I will build my church on this rock” is properly interpreted and fit into what’s in view in scripture. Scripture quite clearly specifies who the rock of our salvation happens to be and what that rock happens to be, TRUTH. Whatever is true is of a worthy report. The Great Pyramid is another artifact, something that was given not conceived by man to serve as an oracle of Yeshua. In that light there is nothing to be said of it that would not be relevant for what contribution it can make to comprehending the revelation of our Creator. I want you to tell me whether you knew the things I am claiming in my pointing to the structure? Did you know the Great Pyramid is the world’s greatest oracle of the Word, there is also another oracle in the heavens, ever study to inform yourself of the the Mazzaroth, Gospel in the Stars?

I know extraneous material can come into a convo, in this I am curious to know what you knew about the Great Pyramid, other than that I have no problem sticking true to what we’re offering our thoughts.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Thread pruned of off topic posts.
Please remain on topic or this thread will be closed.
MF

 

[teadough]

Thread pruned of off topic posts.
Please remain on topic or this thread will be closed.
MF

why don’t you go ahead and close it because when you read through the thread it makes no sense since it has been “pruned”.

 

[guanophore]

Praying to people who have died and expecting them to hear your prayers is a form of comunication.

I have to go with you on this one, against peary. It is a form of communication. Clearly the scriptural examples of interworld communication show this. Samuel communicated with Saul. Moses and Elijah communicated with Jesus. In both cases, there was conversation.

Also the history of the saints confirms this. One example that comes to mind is how Joan of Arc found her sword.

Luke 2:35 It is not the same as asking a living breathing Christian who is alive in this world to pray for you. You have no way of knowing the person you have prayed to can hear your prayers or is even conscious of your request. Jesus is the only One you can pray to with confidence since He and He alone is our great High Priest and Intercessor before the Father. See Hebrews 4:14-16 as one of many examples.

No, it is even more effective to have the prayers of those who are already in heaven, because they are not impeded by the cares of this world. Jesus is generous, and shares with each of us a part of His priestly ministry. When we are in union with Him, we can also be in union with one another.

**You have an incredibly narrow understanding of what it means to be the Body of Christ.

It is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.And if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something “good and pleasing to God,” not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

As for your contention that it is ‘communication’ with the dead, Deut. 18:10–15 specifically indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, “Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now.” The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.

As far as those in Heaven ‘hearing’ our prayers, if being in heaven were like being in the next room, then your objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life. This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us.

The problem here with you is one of what might be called a primitive or even childish view of heaven. A good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity**, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer to the saints follows.

Maybe someday you’ll “get it.”

I moved this quote over here because it was off topic. justasking4 indicated there might be interesting fodder for discussion.