Omniscience, God allowing original sin

[Squishy]

My question is why did god allow man to commit origional sin?

If he is all knowing then he must have known that it was going to happen. Now i know he gave man free will, but why allow the serpent to tempt them in the first place? Knowing what the outcome would be.

God must have known on the day he gave man free will that he would have to cast him out of eden.

One might ask them selves whats the point in that then?

 

[catharina]

My question is why did god allow man to commit origional sin?

If he is all knowing then he must have known that it was going to happen. Now i know he gave man free will, but why allow the serpent to tempt them in the first place? Knowing what the outcome would be.

God must have known on the day he gave man free will that he would have to cast him out of eden.

One might ask them selves whats the point in that then?

Just guessing but it seems that God did not want men/women to be His slaves or His robots. Hence, free will. Error was man’s.

 

[Squishy]

Just guessing but it seems that God did not want men/women to be His slaves or His robots. Hence, free will. Error was man’s.

So he just decided one day to create an animal to make it suffer?

 

[davidv]

So he just decided one day to create an animal to make it suffer?

No. Why do you think that is why He created it?

 

[catharina]

So he just decided one day to create an animal to make it suffer?

That’s kind of a radically limited thought.

First - animals suffer. ALL animals suffer.

In the case of mankind, that holds true as well. However, mankind has a different end to his mortal history. Scripture says, it’s better to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. Amen to that. Each of us has the free will that allows us to make free choices. Those choices will lead us to eternal joy with God in heaven or to elsewhere. The free will is ours to use to that end.

 

[murphdog261]

A man realizes that he is totally and completely in love with a woman. He wants to spend the rest of his life with this woman, so he goes to a priest and asks the priest about marrying the woman.

The man says to the priest “Father, I found this young lady and I am totally in love with her, and I want to give myself completely to her. Do you think we should get married?”

The priest realizes who the man is talking about, and regretfully says, “My son, I know the woman you speak of, and I’m sorry to say, but she has cancer, and she will die in less than five years from now”

The man replies, “Father, I don’t think you understand, I…love…her, completely, and totally”

The priest replies “But, she will die so soon, you’re heart will be broken, and you will suffer greatly!”

The man, again, “That still does not mean that I do not lover her though! Nothing can change my total devotion and care for her”

This is only a INKLING of how much God loves us. Knowing that some of us, even his first two human-creations, would wound the grace-filled relationship with Him, God still created the world and everything in it, because of his infinite and total love.

It doesn’t make sense from a rational standpoint, but once God’s overflowing love is thrown in, it conquers everything else.

Peace,

Murph

 

[Squishy]

No. Why do you think that is why He created it?

This is what im trying to find out. He created man knowing full well he was going to strip them of grace and cast them out of Eden to make them suffer and try to earn back what was lost.

To what benifit?

 

[Squishy]

It doesn’t make sense from a rational standpoint, but once God’s overflowing love is thrown in, it conquers everything else.

Peace,

Murph

Your right about it not making sence from a rational standpoint. But because god loves us its ok for all the suffering in the world…

 

[catharina]

This is what im trying to find out. He created man knowing full well he was going to strip them of grace and cast them out of Eden to make them suffer and try to earn back what was lost.

To what benifit?

All creation exists because of the Creator.
Man “stripped” himself of grace
and yet God provided a promise to restore grace
and God kept the promise.

No matter how you slice it, the loss, the separation was man’s choice.

So God gave us life and then when we failed, He restored our life.
Not exactly wasted effort. Should we prefer non-existence?

 

[murphdog261]

In a sense God’s love does mean that there is suffering in the world, sort of.

God’s love permitted man to have free will. If God did not give us a choice, then it would not really be love.

Because human had and have a choice, they can mess up the relationship if they want…hence all the suffering.

Now it should be looked at in the fullest sense (of the diagram anyway):

God’s infinite love → creation of man with free will → man chose to fall → suffering in the world -->God’s sends Himself Incarnate to redeem us of our wrongdoings → salvation for those willfully accept God’s love

Now it should be clear that man created his own suffering. He didn’t have to, but he did.

But some people just see this:

God’s infinite love → suffering → why?!

Both are technically true, but the second one, if not understood properly, could lead people in the wrong direction.
The second one is not entirely true, if you say that the terms are causally and directly related. you can still ask why, (which is what you are doing), as long as you are open to the truth.

I hope that helps,

Peace

Murph

 

[Squishy]

All creation exists because of the Creator.
Man “stripped” himself of grace
and yet God provided a promise to restore grace
and God kept the promise.

No matter how you slice it, the loss, the separation was man’s choice.

So God gave us life and then when we failed, He restored our life.
Not exactly wasted effort. Should we prefer non-existence?

But why did got allow man to strip himself of grace. Im not saying to get rid of free will.

But woudnt it have been better to cast the sepent out of eden before it corrupted man ?

Or put a big fence around the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. Mabey even one with razor wire at the top?

My point is God knew before he created man that he was going to lose gods grace and have to earn it back. So does god just like punishing man for his inherant flaws (which god created in him in the first place)

 

[Squishy]

EDIT : Tried to fix a spelling mistake and quoted my self

 

[murphdog261]

I am starting to see where you’re difficulty is coming from.

I think the one point where you are tripping yourself up is:

God created an inherent flaw in man (im presuming that is man’s free will)

However, it is not an inherent flaw really, since, when used properly, it brings us closer to God. Now Man CHOOSES to be with God, instead of God just controlling man, (which as I said before would not be a loving relationship)

Man needs to make the choice to love God in return.

Now the heart of your question seems to revolve around God’s foreknowledge of all the suffering in the world.

Did God know that man would fall? yes
Did God realize that He would have to send Himself, His Son, in mortal form, to suffer on a cross for our sins? yes
Did God realize that this was a total injustice, for His innocent Son to die for all the wrongdoings of men? yes!
Why did He did do all of this, why did He even will any of it to happen, if it would just mean that people would suffer?

…Because (you guessed it) He loved us so totally and completely that He wanted to give us the chance, the CHANCE, to love Him in return.

I realize its difficult to see this if it is just taken rationally - then I would agree with you, it would have not been worth all the pain and effort.

If you are looking for another answer, I cannot tell you what it is. It is that God’s loves us.

“God created the universe in order to enter into a history of love with humankind. He created it so that love could exist. God created the universe in order to be able to become a human being and pour out his love upon us and to invite us to love him in return.” (Cardinal Ratzinger)

This is the hardest part, but it really is impossible to get any of this stuff unless you begin to see God’s love.

I can see a good heart behind you questions.If you are really pursuing the truth, then I can tell you that this question may not be answerable for you at the moment. I do not know what you’re personal beliefs are, but please dwell upon this with an open mind, and open heart, and if you feel the desire to please pray about this. Pray that you will find the truth behind your questions. I will be praying for you too.

The fact that you are asking these questions shows that you want to know more. However, do not expect to understand the infinite in a day (or a lifetime). These are big questions you are asking, so please be patient.

In Christ

Murph

 

[Archus]

yea I agree with some of the posts here.

He has omniscience, which means he knew what was going to happen. But remember he gave us free will, and he letus choose our fate. We chose death.

But remember that while he let this suffering happen, he gave us something greater: Jesus Christ, so that life may be restored.

Yes, we suffered, but with God we are healed. It was our choice, and in his love, he gave us a means for us to be made right again. He didn’t create the serpent for evil, Satan used the serpent for evil. He could have used a pig, oxen or any other animal, but the serpent was the one on the tree. If a bird were there, then the bird would have called to Eve, but it was the serpent.

 

[catharina]

“God created the universe in order to enter into a history of love with humankind. He created it so that love could exist. God created the universe in order to be able to become a human being and pour out his love upon us and to invite us to love him in return.” (Cardinal Ratzinger)

I must re-quote the former Cardinal Ratzinger (he’s now the Pope) since his words go straight to the heart of the matter.

Also, I read your introductory post so I realize that faith of any kind in Almighty God is still a new and untried experience for you. Still, with Murph, I easily agree, you’re on the right path.

Perhaps helpful to you in your searching would be learning the fact that God promises faith to all who ask for it, and yes, usually it comes to one as a part of a process lived through time. How wonderful for you that you have a Catholic girlfriend from Poland. Nature/nurture and all that, sorta’ true but essentially, England, Scotland, etc. broke from Rome (unlike Poland) and so countless generations were spared both grave doubt and loss of faith in the nations that remained Catholic at heart, despite governmental interference. Prayers for you, your parents, her and her parents too.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

The real question, to me, is why God created the people he knew would freely choose hell.

It is easy to understand his making people who he knew would sin and then repent. It’s not difficult to justify his having made people with a sinful nature, if they’ll repent in the end.

But even though people freely choose hell, and don’t want to submit to God, so prefer to stay there than to go to heaven, this is an absolutely abominably dark, agonizing place. They might choose to be there, but since they’ll choose such evil forever, why did God even make them?

God could have only created the people he foreknew would choose to repent of their sins and come to God’s grace.

I know that the people who choose hell chose it themselves, and so are to blame. Hell is just. I’m not arguing about that. I am just wondering why God would have created them in the first place.

A related question I have is: If God is not bound to create the universe in one way, but could have created it with many outcomes, all of which he fully foreknew the possible results of, then how can he not have predestined everything that occurs? He created this universe, and all of its people, foreknowing everything that they would do. He didn’t have to. So seeing as he created it all this way, when he could have created a different universe instead (without all the pain, evil and sin), in which he foreknew people would, from their free will, choose heaven, how is this not predestination? For even though we freely choose one thing or another, God created it this way on purpose, knowing what would happen, and he could have created it very differently. It was up to God to create this universe and these people, and these events.

This seems to suggest that everything we freely will, God chose beforehand when he created this universe instead of any of the alternatives. Which suggests that everything is predestined.

I am not saying that this is the way it is. I believe it is not. I believe Catholic doctrine, that we are responsible for our sins and that our actions are not all controlled by God. However, I don’t understand how this framework makes logical sense, yet.

 

[catharina]

The real question, to me, is why God created the people he knew would freely choose hell.

It is easy to understand his making people who he knew would sin and then repent. It’s not difficult to justify his having made people with a sinful nature, if they’ll repent in the end.

But even though people freely choose hell, and don’t want to submit to God, so prefer to stay there than to go to heaven, this is an absolutely abominably dark, agonizing place. They might choose to be there, but since they’ll choose such evil forever, why did God even make them?

God could have only created the people he foreknew would choose to repent of their sins and come to God’s grace.

I know that the people who choose hell chose it themselves, and so are to blame. Hell is just. I’m not arguing about that. I am just wondering why God would have created them in the first place.

A related question I have is: If God is not bound to create the universe in one way, but could have created it with many outcomes, all of which he fully foreknew the possible results of, then how can he not have predestined everything that occurs? He created this universe, and all of its people, foreknowing everything that they would do. He didn’t have to. So seeing as he created it all this way, when he could have created a different universe instead (without all the pain, evil and sin), in which he foreknew people would, from their free will, choose heaven, how is this not predestination? For even though we freely choose one thing or another, God created it this way on purpose, knowing what would happen, and he could have created it very differently. It was up to God to create this universe and these people, and these events.

This seems to suggest that everything we freely will, God chose beforehand when he created this universe instead of any of the alternatives. Which suggests that everything is predestined.

I am not saying that this is the way it is. I believe it is not. I believe Catholic doctrine, that we are responsible for our sins and that our actions are not all controlled by God. However, I don’t understand how this framework makes logical sense, yet.

We can believe that our free will is absolute because God says so and He’s the Only One Who knows for sure! God is not a giver of determinism. Foreknowledge is not equal to forced action. Does that help at all?

 

[Lief_Erikson]

We can believe that our free will is absolute because God says so and He’s the Only One Who knows for sure!

That’s why I believe it right now. I’m taking it on faith, and I will continue to do so. I would like to understand how it makes sense logically too, though .

Foreknowledge is not equal to forced action. Does that help at all?

I understand that argument, but even if God did not force someone to go to hell, if he foreknew that the person would choose hell and created the person anyway, it seems that he must bear responsibility for the outcome. If you tell me you’re going to rob a bank, and I choose not to phone the police, but to stand by and let you do it, I bear some moral responsibility for what happened. There are sins of omission as well as sins of commission.

If God had simply not created those who would damn themselves, they wouldn’t damn themselves. So why not only create people he knew would eventually repent?

 

[catharina]

That’s why I believe it right now. I’m taking it on faith, and I will continue to do so. I would like to understand how it makes sense logically too, though .

I understand that argument, but even if God did not force someone to go to hell, if he foreknew that the person would choose hell and created the person anyway, it seems that he must bear responsibility for the outcome. If you tell me you’re going to rob a bank, and I choose not to phone the police, but to stand by and let you do it, I bear some moral responsibility for what happened. There are sins of omission as well as sins of commission.

If God had simply not created those who would damn themselves, they wouldn’t damn themselves. So why not only create people he knew would eventually repent?

**If two parents had a child who was the absolute joy of their lives for forty years, but then the “child” became a rampant, serial killer, and the parents were asked “Hey - would you have done it all over again if you’d known the end of the story?” Most parent might say “No! We sure wouldn’t have had him in our lives.” but some would also say “Yes - and we’ll pray for the rest of lives that he is forgiven.” Same story: Would/should society insist that his evil actions were the fault of his loving and devoted parents? **

**Don’t forget that no one can definitvely say that anyone is in hell. We know Judas went into perdition. ****That’s about it. **What is with this thing of so many people BLAMING God? Often with the aside " … if He even exists."

 

[Lief_Erikson]

**Don’t forget that no one can definitvely say that anyone is in hell. We know Judas went into perdition. ****That’s about it. **

The Book of Daniel clearly says that many will go to hell, to suffer “everlasting scorn and contempt.” There are many passages and parables that show the people going to hell as a large number.

It says in the scripture that the path to hell is broad “and many are they who enter in through it.” But the path to heaven narrow, “and few find it.” That passage says that there will be more humans in hell than in heaven.

What is with this thing of so many people BLAMING God? Often with the aside " … if He even exists."

I agree.

If two parents had a child who was the absolute joy of their lives for forty years, but then the “child” became a rampant, serial killer, and the parents were asked “Hey - would you have done it all over again if you’d known the end of the story?” Most parent might say “No! We sure wouldn’t have had him in our lives.” but some would also say “Yes - and we’ll pray for the rest of lives that he is forgiven.” Same story: Would/should society insist that his evil actions were the fault of his loving and devoted parents?

If they gave him life with the knowledge that he would commit all of these murders, then it seems logical that they would bear responsibility for the outcome of their action. They knowingly precipitated it, and they could have prevented it.

God could have created only humans who would freely choose good, couldn’t he?