Omniscience, God allowing original sin

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God could have created only humans who would freely choose good, couldn’t he?
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"My question is why did god allow man to commit original sin?

If he is all knowing then he must have known that it was going to happen. Now i know he gave man free will, but why allow the serpent to tempt them in the first place? Knowing what the outcome would be.


**God must have known on the day he gave man free will that he would have to cast him out of eden. **

One might ask them selves whats the point in that then?"

There is no question posed by the OP regarding what God could or couldn’t do to prevent a conception. As the Lord wills each soul into life, He does so in accord with the laws of science: conception happens. Man has free will. That’s the nature of our creation - not a myth that God could have done things better!.
 
God’s predestination does not interfere with man’s freedom to choose. God predestines that those who respond in faith and choose Jesus (with the help of His grace) will be justified. Our wills are not totally depraved, though because of the fall of Adam, we need help in choosing salvation. God does not, from before all time, decide who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. That decision rests with the individual. God’s foreknowledge can see the ultimate decision, but God does not force or coerce anyone to accept Christ.

God is in control, and has a predetermined plan for those who choose salvation for for those who reject God’s grace. Yet, the choosing is one of a person’s free will.
 
God allowed the occasion of sin, b/c he wanted them to merit Heavenly Paradise as well as the Earthly Paradise, not just give it to them for free.
 
Don’t mean to be glib (honestly), but we **often **don’t know why God does the things He does. We don’t really know this one, either.

The more important question, though, is whether we trust that God has a morally sufficient reason for allowing the evil He permits. Christians must believe that He does - or forgo the biblical representation of Gods goodness, holiness, love, sovereignty, etc.

Give it up and recognize your finitude, guy.
 
In the gospel Jesus says something I find to be very notworthy: ‘The Father judges no man but has given all judgement to His Son’.

Truth be told, God has never judged anyone, but everyone in existence has judged Him. He has sent laws, prophets and even His Son as witnesses against us to how far we have fallen short of what we know to be right and wrong.

The narrative of the garden I take to be more metaphorical than really historic, maybe this is incorrect, I do believe in a historic Adam and Eve but I don’t believe they ate from a literal tree of knowledge of good and evil any more than I believe they were tempted by a literal serpent (as opposed to the devil who is metaphorically called the serpent).

The tree of life appear synonymous with Jesus, because all who eat of it/Him have eternal life. And we know that Jesus is not a biological tree (correct if I’m wrong). Hence I see no reason why the tree of knowledge of good and evil is a literal biological tree either.

The Father judges no man. Our sin began when we acquired the capacity to decide between good and evil, to judge for ourselves what was right and wrong. God knew about it, but had not intended us to ever have it. Our foreparents acquired this knowledge and saw their own nakedness and hid themselves from God’s presence.

The Father did not judge them, but they judged Him. Satan told them that God had lied to them about dieing and that He was hiding something from them, and they believed him. They judged Him and condemned Him, the acquisition of a discernment between good and evil came at the same point. Because before that they neither judged nor condmened. They knew good and evil, and they knew God to be evil…

And therefore God said because you have done this, you have judged me, I will take this judgement of yours and reflect it back on to you. You say there is something wrong with me and do not obey my commandments, I say there is something wrong with you and hence I shall call you a sinner. Because you have chosen satan over me, you may have satan instead of me, and he will introduce death for you, wheras I would have given you life, and all who come after you in this choice you have made.

God never judged them, nor has he ever judged, he has only taken our judgements and proven ourselves to be guilty of them. It is by our own discernment of good and evil that we illegally chose that we have found ourselves to be naked and evil.

Why did God allow us to do this? He didn’t, for one thing, we weren’t allowed to do this; and we have paid a penalty for it.

Why did the option to do this exist? Why did God permit it to exist?

Allow me to put a riddle to this question if I may. If Adam and Eve had not yet acquired the knowledge of good and evil before they ‘ate from the tree’ so to speak, how could they have known that disobeying God and dieing was immoral? If their eyes had yet to be opened, if they didn’t yet know right from wrong, if they couldn’t discern good and evil, how could they have known that disobedience and death was something which was wrong?

They couldn’t have, it was only after consuming it that their eyes could have been opened to their guilt and the immorality of their action as it was at that point we humans had determined to decide between right and wrong, to justify and to condemn. We continue with this knowledge to this day, and hence our sin remains to which we are all born into because we all fall short of what we know to be right and wrong.

In a state in the garden without such knowledge or in a state with the Father who passes no judgement, we would not know right and wrong, and we would not judge between it. In such a state we would agree that there was nothing wrong with allowing the possibility to acquire such knowledge of right and wrong. Does this make sense?
 
First of all one must understand that all of Creation was created simply for Jesus - period.

God created man in perfect grace and freewill with the foreknowledge that man would fall. But God permitted it to glorify His Son (his 2nd person). God knew that *a greater good *would come out of the evil of man’s falling away and being disobedient. There was no risk for God. If man did not fall away Jesus would have been glorified in a way that we can’t imagine or conceive and humanity would be deified (hypostatically through Jesus) perfectly. But it would have been a lesser glory than Jesus now receives for each fallen soul that He saves for God.

Most Christians don’t get it. While we are alive we can actually GROW our souls through meritorious acts performed in the presence of God’s grace. After death the soul can never be any more than it is - it can only be purified and attach itself to the beatific vision. A greater good is achieved through those redeemed souls who through Jesus’ expiation of guilt avail themselves to serve God’s glory by growing in that grace. The created in place angels are said to be jealous of humanity in its ability to actually grow its spiritual capacity through the merits of Life working with the saving grace of God.

God so values a single just soul that He will permit the greater of humankind to exist in wanton sin just to have the time for that one just soul to be born and embodied. God will permit 100’s of millions of unjust souls to fall into Eternal Damnation just to be able to harvest a single just human soul. That is a measure of God’s Love and God’s Justice. God’s Mercy is seen in permitting even a single fallen human soul to be redeemed through the merits of Jesus working with God’s grace and to permit it to attach itself to His eternal Divinity through Jesus. In so doing God glorifies Jesus (and His full Godhead/Himself).

It’s really pretty simple. Creation, will be permitted to exist in its continued disobedience and evil acts up to the point that it is so fallen away that its not possible to harvest through the channel of freewill any more justified and redeemable souls. God in His omniscience knows when that condition will be upon us. The world and creation as it currently exists ends at the instant the last soul is harvested for God.

Our job is to be praying every day that God will be merciful to us and to proactively cooperate with His salvific grace and to be charitable to God, our neighbors (both living and deceased) and to be among the elect. Its a full time job and we must keep it going all our lives and persevere to the end. Many are called but few enter.

Hope to see you on the other side,
James
 
So he just decided one day to create an animal to make it suffer?
One of the gretest and probably the most missused and the most missunderstood gifts that God has given us is the gift of our free will. It ultimately is to choose God or not to choose God.
 
If we read Genesis very deliberately there is the freedom to explore and begin to know the environment that is first being created for Adam. God brings the world to Adam, who, as yet does not have a name. He is only known as the man. Then God brings the woman who is known only as the woman and flesh and bone of Adam’s flesh and bone. Nowhere does it state that the man knows anything more than what he discovers by observation and applying a name that describes what he observes. It does not say that the man lived in grace with God or the woman. It does not state anywhere that he even knows God except that God brings him creations. God tells the man not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil or he die. The man does not know good or evil nor death. The man does not know sin. If you tell a child not to run in the street or he will get hurt the child will still run in the street because of innocence and ignorance. It was Eve who was tempted and Adam was there with her. He was passive. The woman did not know who she was if she was defined by the man. She would naturally feel incomplete by the man’s description of her and he could only describe her based on how deeply he knew himself and God. The woman was trying to know herself and to know her creator by exploring what would bring her wisdom–the knowledge of good and evil. Grace gives us the knowledge of God and consequently the knowledge of good and evil. We cannot mature into loving beings without that knowledge. They did not sin and choose against God. The woman wanted to know God better and herself better. The man is the one who reacted with shame after he ate and caused the woman to feel his shame because they are one flesh. She did not know it was his shame she was feeling. The the man blamed her and God. He did not take responsibility and created the real harm. I have so much more to say about this but I am going to study Christ’s passion.
 
God has gifted man free will for man to choose his own destiny. He may even go against the will of his Creator.
 
I have a hard time absorbing all this, so please indulge my ignorance if I do not pick up on everything said in this string.

The simple (and it is always dangerous to over simplify) answer is that God allowed Original Sin so that we could meet Jesus.
Now it could be argued that we would not have needed to meet Jesus had original sin not entered the pictured. But, I sure am glad I got to meet Him.

God also allowed original sin, as this string has already said, to allow love (Him) to exist. Love cannot exist without choice; love without choice in many parlances is rape. God is incapable of rape.
God loves His mother Mary as much as He loves Satan. His love is unconditional. Obviously there is a BIG difference in the way Mary responds to His love than Satan’s response to His love. There in lies the difference. Original sin allows us each to respond to God. Prior to original sin, we had no response.

As far as I know re. Predestination? Catholics do believe in predestination. We are all predestined to be with God. No one was presupposed to be in hell. Genesis says that in the beginning we were all with God and it was good. We read this every year at the Easter vigil just to remind us of our destiny. THAT is God’s plan (predestination) for all of us.

I know I am preaching to the choir here, but I had to add my two bits. Go slow so I can keep up:confused:
 
Gil M.,

You said: “We are all predestined to be with God.”

I agree with that since we were all in the Book of Life when we were born, but only through our own evil way, would we be erased from the Book of Life.

Read the following:

WHEN DOES GOD WRITE NAMES IN THE BOOK OF LIFE?

In the Book of Life there is written the names of those who will gain entry into God’s Kingdom. Nowhere in Scripture does it state when God wrote those names in the Book. However, many Theologians believe that all of our names were placed in the Book of Life at the time of our birth since God desired that everyone would be able to spend eternity in His Kingdom. He did not bring us into this world to spend eternity in Hell.

Note the following verse:

Rev. 3:5 states: “The Victor (he who is worthy to enter God’s Kingdom) will thus be dressed in white, and I will never ERASE his name from the Book of Life, but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and his angels.” (My words in parenthesis and my CAPS). From this verse it appears that instead of adding names to the Book, God erases them when they are found to be unworthy to enter His Kingdom… I find this interpretation very acceptable; to add our names to the Book of Life when we are born with the hopes that we all will enter His Kingdom; but then ERASE the names of those of us who deny Him. This makes sense to me but I can’t confirm any of this from Scripture

And of course, Rev 20:15: “Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was thrown into the pool of fire.”

The hope here is that the followers of Christ already have our names in the Book of Life – our efforts should be to keep them there and not have them REMOVED.
 
I too would like to know why God created the world while He “knew” beforehand that everything would go wrong.
Maye there is no answer to this during our life here on earth.(wars, the holocaust,calamities)
I think we are making a mistake trying to “humanize” God, that is trying to make God think like we humans do. God doesn’t think the way we do. Maybe He doesn’t “think” at all. It is just beyond us. Hard as it is, we must just try to accept this.
 
My question is why did god allow man to commit origional sin?

If he is all knowing then he must have known that it was going to happen. Now i know he gave man free will, but why allow the serpent to tempt them in the first place? Knowing what the outcome would be.

God must have known on the day he gave man free will that he would have to cast him out of eden.

One might ask them selves whats the point in that then?
Your moderator Mike has banned me from at least one of the forums for something I said yet Catholics are alowed to stay on while calling protestants names like Liar.

He sent me a private e-mail after I had quoted from the secular church history books of how the early church had become pagan aroung 350 ad. He said that is not alowed and is inflamatory. If secular history is not alowed then how can we ever come to the truth. It has been shown that history from certain denominations and the Roman Catholic church have been changed in order to make there “church” llok good. I would suggest to all protestants and catholcs to go to the library to find true history and not read history from the religious crowd that is tainted.

reachingcatholics.org/rome.html
 
abcd, How do you know secular history is correct. State has been against the church since it began.
 
The cathechism actually addresses your question:

412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, "Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away."307 And St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, "There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, ‘Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more’; and the Exsultet sings, ‘O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!’"308

I interpret this to mean that God would have been perfectly content to let the world go on in innocence. However, one of the great, eternal frustrations of Satan is that while he has no ability to create, only destroy, once ‘destroyed’ God has the ability to re-create, and can accomplish this in a way that makes us even better than before. Yes, man now experiences sin, and the knowledge of good and evil. And when man is redeemed from this state, he is a much more perfected creature from having the experience than the original innocence of man in the garden.

So we could have lived in peaceful innocence for all time, and God would have been perfectly content with that. Given the opportunity of our sin however, God has the opportunity to raise us up to something even greater – ones who have conquered sin by the power of Christ.
 
I think I’ve been made aware of this argument before, that God allowed us to sin in order to raise us to something better.

I just don’t believe it though… evil has no reason to exist, otherwise it would not truly be evil.

I don’t believe that we are going to be made better than we were in the garden. Perfection by definition cannot be improved upon. We will only reach our prior perfection, the perfect and everlasting joy which was always His will for us in beginning and in the end, we do not grow, we are not improved upon, if we could then we should never find a perfect state, because it therefore doesn’t exist (ie. there is always something better than what we have, always something lacking about this supposed state of original perfection).

I agree with St. Paul, but not with Aquinas or Leo. Grace needs to abound in order to free us from sin when sin has abounded, but how can grace take us to a state which is better than perfection? It restores us to that state which is lacking in nothing, I think their interpretation is mistaken.

Think about it… if Adam and Eve had been lacking in something which came later, how could it have been perfect or a paradise? If they did, then by definition it could not have been because it was lacking in something important and therefore imperfect. It would have required something else, it would be yet to be perfect.

God knows the whole of human history. He knows every action we take before we take it, He knows every sin we commit before we commit it, and He even knows who will befriend or reject His Son before He even created them (hence the ‘book of life’ which has existed from the beginning of time).

God knew that Adam and Eve would sin against Him before He created them, before He had placed them in the garden, before He even told them not to eat of the tree, He knew that they would sin. He knew that He would have to send His Son as our Redeemer before He told Adam not to eat of the fruit of the tree. If Adam was not going to chose to eat of it, He would have known that as well, and He would also know that He therefore did not have to send His Son as our Redeemer.

My theory: Adam and Eve could have known Jesus and have had all the things which have been given to us now, and therefore been lacking in nothing, but they chose to sin against God and therefore, with God’s foresight, did not yet come to have those things; which he nevertheless would have offered to them had they not have sinned.

We created sin and the knowledge of it, He didn’t. He never told us we were naked, we did. It is from us in cooperation with the angels (the bad ones that is) who have decided that there exists such a thing as good and evil. God has a will which is all good, but He does not judge those who do not do it. But everyone has judged Him, and rejected His will which is good, and therefore in compliance with this knowledge of ours that there is a good and there is an evil, He sent us laws, prophets, revelation and most especially His Son, as proof of our own guilt by this knowledge we have illegally attained.

‘Stop judging and you will not be judged’, 'the Rod with which you measure shall be measured to you, ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you, this is the law and the prophets

It is by our own judgment, our own knowlegde, our own doings that we are judged. If we did not know good and evil, we could not know ourselves to be naked, and therefore where is sin?

If we found nothing wrong with God, God would find nothing wrong with us. If we turned aside from our ways and found that He had done nothing wrong (ie. repented), He would turn His face back to us and found that we He had done nothing wrong as well (ie. our sin will no longer be remembered). We have created sin and the knowledge of it, and He has taken those judgements with which we have rejected Him in the garden and proven ourselves guilty of them a thousand times over.

If you disagree, please feel free to challenge this.
 
I disagree with the premise that this concept is based upon the idea that “God allowed us to sin in order to raise us to something better.” I don’t believe the intention or desire of God was that man would sin, because that would be contrary to His nature. God simply opted to give us free will, for without free will we cannot participate in the divine nature, for this must be a choice, always a choice.

And with that free will, we chose to sin. God had no purpose for this. However, once done, I do believe that redemption offers a state greater than before. I think this follows the concept that the capacity we each have to experience the joys of heaven will not all be equal. However, we shall all experience the joy of heaven perfectly to our capacity, and lack nothing at all. So I would see that ‘perfection’ found in the Garden of Eden was indeed perfect, but there can be an experience of perfection that has yet a greater capacity of experiencing the divine nature of the Trinity.
 
My question is why did god allow man to commit origional sin?

If he is all knowing then he must have known that it was going to happen. Now i know he gave man free will, but why allow the serpent to tempt them in the first place? Knowing what the outcome would be.

God must have known on the day he gave man free will that he would have to cast him out of eden.

One might ask them selves whats the point in that then?

The question is to some extent at least a pseudo-question, AFAICS, because it implies that God is in time**, just as man is in time**. A sin can have been future to man - but God is not that like that :o The problem is, that we experience events in succession, so we write of them as though they were successive - & to us they are; but it is not clear that God “experiences” them in this way. God is unknowable unless revealed - & that point is not revealed.​

As to questions such as “What is the point ?” - this is man-centred. Life can seem pointless to us only if we assume that the universe is arranged for our benefit. It’s not - it is arranged that God may be glorified by the glorification of Christ. If we did not exist, it would not be meaningless, because it is arranged arround Christ. Since
He has been pleased to create us for the praise of His Glory, that we may glorify Oue Creator & Lord, we do exist.

The trouble with any answer to life other than Christ is that it leaves us with no alternative but to make the reason for the universe something less than Christ - IOW, a creature. But that answer, because it is wrong, requires us to falsify the universe so that the universe can have created things as its reason. This is cheating, & it’s idolatry. 😦 Sin does violence to the universe, because it is an attempt to make the universe revolve around man, instead of around Christ. It’s a sort of cosmic rape. 😦

As for the “outcome” - the outcome is the Exaltation of Christ as Victor over sin, death, hell & every evil. That’s a pretty good outcome 🙂 IOW - those things don’t, & can’t, & never could, have the last word: it is always God who has the Last Word, because His Word is the Living Word through Whom He created the universe, & Who is “God-with-us”. 🙂
 
I disagree with the premise that this concept is based upon the idea that “God allowed us to sin in order to raise us to something better.” I don’t believe the intention or desire of God was that man would sin, because that would be contrary to His nature. God simply opted to give us free will, for without free will we cannot participate in the divine nature, for this must be a choice, always a choice.

And with that free will, we chose to sin. God had no purpose for this. However, once done, I do believe that redemption offers a state greater than before. I think this follows the concept that the capacity we each have to experience the joys of heaven will not all be equal. However, we shall all experience the joy of heaven perfectly to our capacity, and lack nothing at all. So I would see that ‘perfection’ found in the Garden of Eden was indeed perfect, but there can be an experience of perfection that has yet a greater capacity of experiencing the divine nature of the Trinity.
I think you’re right I was misinterpreting what was said, although I would state that I have come across that position on occasion.

What I mean to imply is that: would God have denied humans to know His Son because they didn’t sin? That simply makes no sense to me, the best conclusion that I can still come up with is that God would have let us know His Son, regardless of wether or not we had eaten from the tree. Although if we hadn’t eaten from it, it would not have been for redemption.

As for free will, I think its intrinsic to the nature of humanity… ie. it could not be separated from it. Everything God created He did so as an act of love, God made us exist because He loved us and therefore He needed to make us exist, if He didn’t love us, He would not have made us exist. He loved the humanity which possessed free will and did not love the humanity which did not possess free will, therefore this humanity exists and the other(s) did not.
 
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