On Enoch's and Elijah's salvation

[MarcoPG]

Jim Blackburn answering the following question :

Before Jesus died for our sins, nobody was let into heaven. I have heard this in a few places, is it true?

By his death and Resurrection, Jesus opened heaven to us (cf. Catechism, 1026). Prior to that time, only Enoch and Elijah are known to have entered heaven (see Gen 5:24; 2 Kings 2:11).

Doesn’t Jim forget to mention that both were actually saved by Jesus too? That would be a crucial )) point to get. Or am I wrong?

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Jim Blackburn answering the following question :

Before Jesus died for our sins, nobody was let into heaven. I have heard this in a few places, is it true?

By his death and Resurrection, Jesus opened heaven to us (cf. Catechism, 1026). Prior to that time, only Enoch and Elijah are known to have entered heaven (see Gen 5:24; 2 Kings 2:11).

Doesn’t Jim forget to mention that both were actually saved by Jesus too? That would be a crucial )) point to get. Or am I wrong?

Not true. See John 3: 13.

The OT is easily misinterpreted on this matter, since Heaven (in the Christian sense) was not known. Heaven, and the Kingdom of God were revelations from Jesus Christ, and unknown (in the sense we understand it) before that time.

Jesus himself answers this question in the negative.

 

[PJM]

=MarcoPG;12338301]Jim Blackburn answering the following question :

Before Jesus died for our sins, nobody was let into heaven. I have heard this in a few places, is it true?

By his death and Resurrection, Jesus opened heaven to us (cf. Catechism, 1026). Prior to that time, only Enoch and Elijah are known to have entered heaven (see Gen 5:24; 2 Kings 2:11).

Doesn’t Jim forget to mention that both were actually saved by Jesus too? That would be a crucial )) point to get. Or am I wrong?

NO it does NOT say “heaven”

Which even they could NOT attain until after Christ Ressurection

What they enthered along with Moses, Abraham ect was the LIMBO of the Fathers.

 

[ialsop]

NO it does NOT say “heaven”

Which even they could NOT attain until after Christ Ressurection

What they enthered along with Moses, Abraham ect was the LIMBO of the Fathers.

Which is purgatory, right?

 

[MarcoPG]

Which is purgatory, right?

Nope at least not as we understand it.
The limbo of the Fathers is the place (of sheol?) where the righteous souls go and wait for Christ “to open the gates of Heaven”. That a purgation of venial sin is necessary is true (we know it now), but we don’t know really how it was sin back then.

 

[GEddie]

The 2E’s ascended physically, not spiritually.

We will not be privileged to ascend in our solid bodies, but they are not necessarily in the eternal Heaven.

God may have provided a wormhole, or the equivalent, for them to ascend in their human bodies while remaining non-dead. We just don’t know.

But the final Heaven will require a supernatural resurrection, pneumatikon soma.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[MarcoPG]

The 2E’s ascended physically, not spiritually.

We will not be privileged to ascend in our solid bodies, but they are not necessarily in the eternal Heaven.

God may have provided a wormhole, or the equivalent, for them to ascend in their human bodies while remaining non-dead. We just don’t know.

But the final Heaven will require a supernatural resurrection, pneumatikon soma.

ICXC NIKA.

I don’t see why it couldn’t be like Mary, who was assumed into Heaven with her Body too. I think they already have a glorified body, they won’t need a supernatural resurrection.

 

[The_Serpent]

Henoch was taken into Paradise according to Ecclesiasticus 44:16.

 

[Nita]

Henoch was taken into Paradise according to Ecclesiasticus 44:16.

In Scripture, “paradise” does not necessarily mean “heaven”. The Garden of Eden, where Adam and Eve dwelt before sinning, is equated with paradise, but this earthly paradise was not heaven.
Genesis 2: 8-10
8 And the Lord God had planted a paradise of pleasure from the beginning: wherein he placed man whom he had formed.

9 And the Lord God brought forth of the ground all manner of trees, fair to behold, and pleasant to eat of: the tree of life also in the midst of paradise: and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

10 And a river went out the place of pleasure to water paradise, which from thence is divided into four heads.

There’s a good entry in the online Catholic Encyclopedia on “Paradise”.
newadvent.org/cathen/14519a.htm

 

[thistle]

Henoch was taken into Paradise according to Ecclesiasticus 44:16.

D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 16. Into. Greek, “a model of penance to past or future generations.” (Haydock) — The Latin fathers suppose that Henoch was translated to heaven, or to the earthly paradise. It is the tradition both of Jews and of Christians that he is still alive, and will come to oppose Antichrist, (Apocalypse xi. 3., Genesis v. 22., and Hebrews xi. 5.; Calmet) when he will preach penance, (Worthington) chiefly to the Gentiles, while Elias will address himself to the Jews. (Haydock)

 

[PJM]

=ialsop;12338704]Which is purgatory, right?

NO

In Purgatory there is suffering to PAY BACK the Temporal Punishment due to ALL sins {I can explain this if you’s like me too?}

LIMBO exited in two ways:
The LIMBO of the Fathers was a place; where nearly all of the benefits of HEAVEN EXISTED EXCEPT FOR THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE: THE BEATIFIC VISION; seeing God “face to face.”. It had no suffering ONLY this critically important loss.

The second Limo is the place where the dead who were not Baptized {but NOT their own fault} exist.Again no suffering; but lacking the Beatific Vision.?

Let me know if you’d like further explanations

God Bless you,
Patrick.

 

[MarcoPG]

D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 16. It is the tradition both of Jews and of Christians that he is still alive, and will come to oppose Antichrist, (Apocalypse xi. 3., Genesis v. 22., and Hebrews xi. 5.; Calmet) when he will preach penance, (Worthington) chiefly to the Gentiles, while Elias will address himself to the Jews. (Haydock)

Alive, but not with his mortal body, right? This I can’t say I agree.

 

[GEddie]

Alive, but not with his mortal body, right? This I can’t say I agree.

Alive in his mortal body!

You (human being) are not alive unless you are embodied. The mind lives the life, but it is the body that holds and expresses the life; without your body you are noBODY!

As the 2Es managed to dodge bodily death, ISTM they’d maintain their original human bodies!

ICXC NIKA!

 

[MarcoPG]

Alive in his mortal body!

You (human being) are not alive unless you are embodied. The mind lives the life, but it is the body that holds and expresses the life; without your body you are noBODY!

As the 2Es managed to dodge bodily death, ISTM they’d maintain their original human bodies!

ICXC NIKA!

Is there any document on this? This would contradict the fact that no one enter Heaven before Christ, wouldn’t it?

For someone to “dodge” bodily death, as you say, ok, but we don’t say Mary is with her earthly body in Heaven, but a glorified one. So not to die is not the problem, it can be a grace. But to go to Heaven, this would be illogical to have no glorified body.
Or do you say they are alive in their mortal bodies, but are glorified?

 

[MarcoPG]

NO it does NOT say “heaven”

Which even they could NOT attain until after Christ Ressurection

What they enthered along with Moses, Abraham ect was the LIMBO of the Fathers.

Only dead people went to the Limbo of the Fathers, or also the ones ascended? Because for someone to be taken up to Heaven with a mortal body, it must have been glorified, isn’t it?

 

[GEddie]

Is there any document on this? This would contradict the fact that no one enter Heaven before Christ, wouldn’t it?

For someone to “dodge” bodily death, as you say, ok, but we don’t say Mary is with her earthly body in Heaven, but a glorified one. So not to die is not the problem, it can be a grace. But to go to Heaven, this would be illogical to have no glorified body.
Or do you say they are alive in their mortal bodies, but are glorified?

We do not know that they went to Eternal Heaven.

It could be that they were in the region called by some, “Abraham’s Bosom”, ie a place of human afterlife prior to Eternal Heaven; albeit in their breathing human bodies rather than Spirit-form bodies, as everybody else.

In the Eternal Heaven, there will only be “glorified bodies” (pneumatikon soma).

ICXC NIKA

 

[MarcoPG]

We do not know that they went to Eternal Heaven.

It could be that they were in the region called by some, “Abraham’s Bosom”, ie a place of human afterlife prior to Eternal Heaven; albeit in their breathing human bodies rather than Spirit-form bodies, as everybody else.

In the Eternal Heaven, there will only be “glorified bodies” (pneumatikon soma).

ICXC NIKA

Sure we don’t know, but in my opinion, it wouldn’t make sense that they went to the Eternal Heaven. Heaven was sealed.

And about the glorificaiton too, what i mean by that is not the glorificaiton for the people going to Heaven after Jesus’ Resurrection, I mean by that term they had to be transformed during or after the translation or rapture somehow, to go in an unearthly place like the Limbo of the Fathers with their bodies. THat transformation I call glorification because to God they were pleasing, and friends of His.
The fact of the transfiguration and their presence there may be a hint of what I am saying.

 

[PJM]

=MarcoPG;12341248]Only dead people went to the Limbo of the Fathers, or also the ones ascended? Because for someone to be taken up to Heaven with a mortal body, it must have been glorified, isn’t it?

So Enoch was MORE worthy than Abraham, Moses, Isiah and so on?

Sorry, I don’t think so.

Christ did not rise from the dead for MANY years after this assumption took place. The Gates of heaven were at that tine securely locked:thumbsup:

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[MarcoPG]

So Enoch was MORE worthy than Abraham, Moses, Isiah and so on?

Sorry, I don’t think so.

Christ did not rise from the dead for MANY years after this assumption took place. The Gates of heaven were at that tine securely locked:thumbsup:

God Bless you,
Patrick

The thing is, th merits of Christ were applied to Mary before she came to the world. How does that deny to Enoch or Elijah to have the same grace?

And also, when I mean glorified, if not totally, I mean somehow, in some sort, so that they could go up to heaven, whatever heaven that may be.

To be in heaven wth a mortal body - but keep in mind, no roblem with being there physically - is for me an contradiction. Enoch and Elijah have sinned. They do not have to die, but then it is a grace; I don’t see any other source of grace that Jesus Christ for them to receive such a reward.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

The thing is, th merits of Christ were applied to Mary before she came to the world. How does that deny to Enoch or Elijah to have the same grace?

And also, when I mean glorified, if not totally, I mean somehow, in some sort, so that they could go up to heaven, whatever heaven that may be.

To be in heaven wth a mortal body - but keep in mind, no roblem with being there physically - is for me an contradiction. Enoch and Elijah have sinned. They do not have to die, but then it is a grace; I don’t see any other source of grace that Jesus Christ for them to receive such a reward.

Your basing your conjectures on biblical interpretation that may be faulty. Why twist yourself into a pretzel trying to justify something that is not even being said in Scripture?

Remember death in Scripture does not always mean physical death, but spiritual death.

No one has escaped death, not Jesus, nor his mother, nor any person that ever lived.

You get into trouble when you try to exempt people from death for whatever reason.

I know the Church has not explicitly defined that the Virgin Mary died, but neither does the Church anywhere deny it. In fact it is ancient tradition that Mary died, and even Pope JPII expressed his opinion that she did in fact die.

Now to say that the Virgin Mary never died at least has SOME basis because she was exempted from Original sin, and never sinned either. But we don’t have any Church teaching or even opinions to this effect with Elijah or Enoch. If anyone deserves to be exempt from Death, it is St. John the Baptist, as Jesus Himself said that NO man born of woman was greater than he!