On eve of Pope Francis visit to Poland, country refuses the red-carpet treatment

[pbmbfl]

Poland has an authoritarian government. They do not see eye to eye with the merciful Pope Francis. Poland is acting somewhat like Francoist Spain or Vichy France.

And tell me how well Democracy has worked for the Church thus far? when you say far-right and mention Francoist Spain and Vichy France, you make it seem rather appealing considering what the opposite was at those times, not every country or person throughout history had the same idea of “Freedom” and “Democracy” as you might, not even American’s did.

This being said, do you think Merkel’s Germany or Hollande’s France are somewhat better then, or even Obama’s America, Franco’s biggest mistake was his change to the free market approach in contrast to a more distributist/Autarky.

 

[KSU]

Here is my main source about the Polish government having fascist qualities:telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/1522202/Ghetto-survivor-warns-of-Polish-fascism.html The person that made this statement survived the Nazi occupation of Poland and the Warsaw Ghetto. They know what fascism looks like.

The unfortunate Marek Edelman was an activist in what can best be described as the Jewish socialist worker’s party. His objective was a Socialist Poland; by the gun if necessary. A Catholic Poland had to have been anathema to this poor man.

Poland has suffered more than its share under various forms of Socialism. Are we supposed to be surprised that today’s liberated (from Socialism) Poland wasn’t enamored with his views?

Leo XIII
"They [socialists, communists, or nihilists] debase the natural union of man and woman, which is held sacred even among barbarous peoples; and its bond, by which the family is chiefly held together, they weaken, or even deliver up to lust. Lured, in fine, by the greed of present goods, which is ‘the root of all evils, which some coveting have erred from the faith’ (1 Tim. 6:10.3), they assail the right of property sanctioned by natural law; and by a scheme of horrible wickedness, while they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title of lawful inheritance, or by labor of brain and hands, or by thrift in one’s mode of life.” (Encyclical Quod Apostolici Muneris, December 28, 1

St. JP II Socialism: Danger of a “simple and radical solution”
“It may seem surprising that ‘socialism’ appeared at the beginning of the Pope’s critique of solutions to the ‘question of the working class’ at a time when ‘socialism’ was not yet in the form of a strong and powerful State, with all the resources which that implies, as was later to happen. However, he correctly judged the danger posed to the masses by the attractive presentation of this simple and radical solution to the ‘question of the working class.’" (EncyclicalCentesimus Annus − On the 100th anniversary of Pope Leo XIII’sRerum Novarum, May 1, 1991, n. 12)

“Continuing our reflections, … we have to add that the fundamental error of socialism is anthropological in nature. Socialism considers the individual person simply as an element, a molecule within the social organism, so that the good of the individual is completely subordinated to the functioning of the socio-economic mechanism. Socialism likewise maintains that the good of the individual can be realized without reference to his free choice, to the unique and exclusive responsibility which he exercises in the face of good or evil. Man is thus reduced to a series of social relationships, and the concept of the person as the autonomous subject of moral decision disappears, the very subject whose decisions build the social order. From this mistaken conception of the person there arise both a distortion of law, which defines the sphere of the exercise of freedom, and an opposition to private property.” (Ibid, n. 13)

 

[anon67074017]

The unfortunate Marek Edelman was an activist in what can best be described as the Jewish socialist worker’s party. His objective was a Socialist Poland; by the gun if necessary. A Catholic Poland had to have been anathema to this poor man.

Poland has suffered more than its share under various forms of Socialism. Are we supposed to be surprised that today’s liberated (from Socialism) Poland wasn’t enamored with his views?

Leo XIII
"They [socialists, communists, or nihilists] debase the natural union of man and woman, which is held sacred even among barbarous peoples; and its bond, by which the family is chiefly held together, they weaken, or even deliver up to lust. Lured, in fine, by the greed of present goods, which is ‘the root of all evils, which some coveting have erred from the faith’ (1 Tim. 6:10.3), they assail the right of property sanctioned by natural law; and by a scheme of horrible wickedness, while they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title of lawful inheritance, or by labor of brain and hands, or by thrift in one’s mode of life.” (Encyclical Quod Apostolici Muneris, December 28, 1

St. JP II Socialism: Danger of a “simple and radical solution”
“It may seem surprising that ‘socialism’ appeared at the beginning of the Pope’s critique of solutions to the ‘question of the working class’ at a time when ‘socialism’ was not yet in the form of a strong and powerful State, with all the resources which that implies, as was later to happen. However, he correctly judged the danger posed to the masses by the attractive presentation of this simple and radical solution to the ‘question of the working class.’" (EncyclicalCentesimus Annus − On the 100th anniversary of Pope Leo XIII’sRerum Novarum, May 1, 1991, n. 12)

“Continuing our reflections, … we have to add that the fundamental error of socialism is anthropological in nature. Socialism considers the individual person simply as an element, a molecule within the social organism, so that the good of the individual is completely subordinated to the functioning of the socio-economic mechanism. Socialism likewise maintains that the good of the individual can be realized without reference to his free choice, to the unique and exclusive responsibility which he exercises in the face of good or evil. Man is thus reduced to a series of social relationships, and the concept of the person as the autonomous subject of moral decision disappears, the very subject whose decisions build the social order. From this mistaken conception of the person there arise both a distortion of law, which defines the sphere of the exercise of freedom, and an opposition to private property.” (Ibid, n. 13)

Poland did well by rejecting socialism. I am glad that they do not like it over there. Fascism is a problem too though. Fascism is a far-right system that shares similarities with the far-left system of communism. Both are very authoritarian and ruthless. This is due to the horseshoe theory. The theory states that extremes on both sides are quite similar to each other. I personally think that Christian democracy is best for Poland. Lech Walesa was a good leader. Poland should follow his example instead of the examples of Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin.

 

[KSU]

Poland did well by rejecting socialism. I am glad that they do not like it over there. Fascism is a problem too though. Fascism is a far-right system that shares similarities with the far-left system of communism. Both are very authoritarian and ruthless. This is due to the horseshoe theory. The theory states that extremes on both sides are quite similar to each other. I personally think that Christian democracy is best for Poland. Lech Walesa was a good leader. Poland should follow his example instead of the examples of Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin.

That you don’t know the difference between Poland’s democratic government based largely on natural law and actual German fascism (the two are poles apart, joke intended) makes me believe that underlying your position is something you don’t want to discuss. That makes debate difficult.

Extreme Liberalism and Libertarianism tend to label as “fascism” any “Right wing” form of government.

FASCISM: The state must gain glory through constant conquest and war. The past was glorious, and that the State can be renewed. The individual has no value outside of his or her role in promoting the glory of the State. Philosophies vary by country, of course, but it is impossible to confuse Poland’s form of government with fascism. So, again, whatever it is that’s driving your comments, it can’t be an honest confusion between Poland and Nazi Germany.

Both the European Commission and President Obama have in common with you a loud dislike of Poland. It’s a sure sign that the Poles have got it right (that’s another joke intended.)

 

[anon67074017]

That you don’t know the difference between Poland’s democratic government based largely on natural law and actual German fascism (the two are poles apart, joke intended) makes me believe that underlying your position is something you don’t want to discuss. That makes debate difficult.

Extreme Liberalism and Libertarianism tend to label as “fascism” any “Right wing” form of government.

FASCISM: The state must gain glory through constant conquest and war. The past was glorious, and that the State can be renewed. The individual has no value outside of his or her role in promoting the glory of the State. Philosophies vary by country, of course, but it is impossible to confuse Poland’s form of government with fascism. So, again, whatever it is that’s driving your comments, it can’t be an honest confusion between Poland and Nazi Germany.

Both the European Commission and President Obama have in common with you a loud dislike of Poland. It’s a sure sign that the Poles have got it right (that’s another joke intended.)

I don’t dislike Poland. I am just concerned that the government may be exploiting Catholicism.

 

[otjm]

Poland has an authoritarian government. They do not see eye to eye with the merciful Pope Francis. Poland is acting somewhat like Francoist Spain or Vichy France.

All governments are authoritarian; that describes nothing.

Acting somewhat? Meaning, exactly what? Examples please, instead of bon mots.

 

[otjm]

I don’t dislike Poland. I am just concerned that the government may be exploiting Catholicism.

Exploiting, meaning what? Examples, please.

 

[KSU]

I don’t dislike Poland. I am just concerned that the government may be exploiting Catholicism.

Now that’s something new. Can you expand?

I’m no expert historian, but I don’t recall any Conservative government that successfully exploited Catholicism in order to gain power. That’s almost a contradiction in terms because Catholic principles are conservative as opposed to liberal.

Exploiting Catholicism to get elected is something common to dishonest individuals in Liberal governments (I know you know who I mean), but even so, not to the extent of being the major factor for the successful election of a government, as you allege inre the Polish government.

 

[anon67074017]

All governments are authoritarian; that describes nothing.

Acting somewhat? Meaning, exactly what? Examples please, instead of bon mots.

Poland is acting somewhat fascist by appearing to favor right-wing extremism over human rights. They appear to be opposed to the philosophy of the American Founding Fathers. I am a Tea Party libertarian who admires the founding principles of America. They believed in Christian values and they applied them to liberty. Poland applies Christian values to right-wing authoritarianism. This is dangerous. Poland would probably even go against Pope Francis in order to push an extremist agenda.

Exploiting, meaning what? Examples, please.

They are using Catholicism to justify policies that mirror far-right regimes. Regimes like that include ISIS.

Now that’s something new. Can you expand?

I’m no expert historian, but I don’t recall any Conservative government that successfully exploited Catholicism in order to gain power. That’s almost a contradiction in terms because Catholic principles are conservative as opposed to liberal.

Exploiting Catholicism to get elected is something common to dishonest individuals in Liberal governments (I know you know who I mean), but even so, not to the extent of being the major factor for the successful election of a government, as you allege inre the Polish government.

Many conservative governments have exploited Catholicism. These include fascist Italy, fascist Portugal, fascist Spain, and fascist Croatia. They used Jesus to justify human rights abuses. I doubt that Jesus would approve of that.

 

[otjm]

Poland is acting somewhat fascist by appearing to favor right-wing extremism over human rights. They appear to be opposed to the philosophy of the American Founding Fathers. I am a Tea Party libertarian who admires the founding principles of America. They believed in Christian values and they applied them to liberty. Poland applies Christian values to right-wing authoritarianism. This is dangerous. Poland would probably even go against Pope Francis in order to push an extremist agenda.

They are using Catholicism to justify policies that mirror far-right regimes. Regimes like that include ISIS.

Many conservative governments have exploited Catholicism. These include fascist Italy, fascist Portugal, fascist Spain, and fascist Croatia. They used Jesus to justify human rights abuses. I doubt that Jesus would approve of that.

Let’s be a little more specific. What extremism over human fights?

 

[KSU]

Poland is acting somewhat fascist by appearing to favor right-wing extremism over human rights. They appear to be opposed to the philosophy of the American Founding Fathers. I am a Tea Party libertarian who admires the founding principles of America. They believed in Christian values and they applied them to liberty. Poland applies Christian values to right-wing authoritarianism. This is dangerous. Poland would probably even go against Pope Francis in order to push an extremist agenda.

They are using Catholicism to justify policies that mirror far-right regimes. Regimes like that include ISIS.

Many conservative governments have exploited Catholicism. These include fascist Italy, fascist Portugal, fascist Spain, and fascist Croatia. They used Jesus to justify human rights abuses. I doubt that Jesus would approve of that.

It’s amazing how you exploit the name of Jesus, and stand on their heads the terms “human rights abuses”, “Right Wing” and" Conservatism" in order to conflate them with Fascism.

Franco, for example, was on the side of the angels; he won a civil war for Spain and Catholicism against a brutally anti-Catholic, Communist revolution supported by leftist International Brigades (beloved by Pagan Holly Wood), the Soviet Union, France and Mexico–none of them supporters of the Church. (Makes one almost want to say today that Our Lord has repaid them).

Because of their hatred for and fear of Communism (not for any love of Catholic Spain) Germany, Italy, and Portugal offered support for Franco-- which is why I suppose you try to label Spain fascist. But so did the Spanish Catholic Church support Franco. Is the Church fascist, too?

As is the case in most international wars, there were atrocities on both sides. But, as an indication of the character of the atrocities against Franco’s side, in 2013 the Catholic Church beatified 522 people, most of them priests and nuns killed by the Communists during the war. The youngest among the 522 was 18 years old; the oldest was an 86-year-old nun. Do you suppose the lay people, nuns and priests were killed because they were fascists?

During the beatification ceremony, a recorded video message from Pope Francis was played to the large congregation. “I join all the participants in the celebration with all my heart”, Francis said to long applause. I guess that’s because he hadn’t been made aware of your take on “fascist” Spain.

As to your disrespectful and absurd statement that fascist Catholic Poland is using Catholicism to justify policies that mirror "far-right"regimes like ISIS, I can only pray for you. BTW, educated observers of ISIS know that it is Socialist, not right wing. I am right wing, and your accusations go far beyond anything that could be excused as invincible ignorance.

ISIS is just a new attempt at a socialist utopia. Muslims are offered a militarily secure haven with food, water, electricity, infrastructure and roads–equality for all, paid for by wealth taken from “infidels” for the benefit of the Muslim State. Like all Socialist governments, however, it of course collapses when the infidels’ money runs out. For you to equate ISIS and Nazi Germany with the pro-Catholic government of Poland is beneath contempt.

I do pray for you. Pray for me, but lets end this absurdity here.

 

[pbmbfl]

Poland is acting somewhat fascist by appearing to favor right-wing extremism over human rights. They appear to be opposed to the philosophy of the American Founding Fathers. I am a Tea Party libertarian who admires the founding principles of America. They believed in Christian values and they applied them to liberty. Poland applies Christian values to right-wing authoritarianism. This is dangerous. Poland would probably even go against Pope Francis in order to push an extremist agenda.

They are using Catholicism to justify policies that mirror far-right regimes. Regimes like that include ISIS.

Many conservative governments have exploited Catholicism. These include fascist Italy, fascist Portugal, fascist Spain, and fascist Croatia. They used Jesus to justify human rights abuses. I doubt that Jesus would approve of that.

Well, for the record, the founding fathers were Freemasons, that’s where the emphasis of “Freedom of Religion” comes from, really, it’s simply the Masonic belief in religious relativism, I don’t know what we’re calling it now but i’ll still call it relativism/modernism, or the belief that all religions are equal, which is false.

Tell me what Franco’s Spain did that was “exploiting” Catholicism, I am sure anyone here would realise how serious the situation was in civil war era Spain had they been there to see that other means of control were needed.

 

[anon67074017]

Let’s be a little more specific. What extremism over human fights?

Poland appears to favor Traditionalist Catholicism over liberty. Traditionalist Catholicism is quite authoritarian and anti-liberty. The Daily Stormer has praised Traditionalist Catholicism. That site is openly neo-Nazi.

It’s amazing how you exploit the name of Jesus, and stand on their heads the terms “human rights abuses”, “Right Wing” and" Conservatism" in order to conflate them with Fascism.

Franco, for example, was on the side of the angels; he won a civil war for Spain and Catholicism against a brutally anti-Catholic, Communist revolution supported by leftist International Brigades (beloved by Pagan Holly Wood), the Soviet Union, France and Mexico–none of them supporters of the Church. (Makes one almost want to say today that Our Lord has repaid them).

Because of their hatred for and fear of Communism (not for any love of Catholic Spain) Germany, Italy, and Portugal offered support for Franco-- which is why I suppose you try to label Spain fascist. But so did the Spanish Catholic Church support Franco. Is the Church fascist, too?

As is the case in most international wars, there were atrocities on both sides. But, as an indication of the character of the atrocities against Franco’s side, in 2013 the Catholic Church beatified 522 people, most of them priests and nuns killed by the Communists during the war. The youngest among the 522 was 18 years old; the oldest was an 86-year-old nun. Do you suppose the lay people, nuns and priests were killed because they were fascists?

During the beatification ceremony, a recorded video message from Pope Francis was played to the large congregation. “I join all the participants in the celebration with all my heart”, Francis said to long applause. I guess that’s because he hadn’t been made aware of your take on “fascist” Spain.

As to your disrespectful and absurd statement that fascist Catholic Poland is using Catholicism to justify policies that mirror "far-right"regimes like ISIS, I can only pray for you. BTW, educated observers of ISIS know that it is Socialist, not right wing. I am right wing, and your accusations go far beyond anything that could be excused as invincible ignorance.

ISIS is just a new attempt at a socialist utopia. Muslims are offered a militarily secure haven with food, water, electricity, infrastructure and roads–equality for all, paid for by wealth taken from “infidels” for the benefit of the Muslim State. Like all Socialist governments, however, it of course collapses when the infidels’ money runs out. For you to equate ISIS and Nazi Germany with the pro-Catholic government of Poland is beneath contempt.

I do pray for you. Pray for me, but lets end this absurdity here.

I think you are the one who needs to be prayed for. You are an Axis sympathizer who thinks that fascism is ordained by God. God is not a fascist. He loves and respects everyone. Fascism does not respect the natural rights that God gave us. Fascism uses God to enforce the power of the state. I think it is quite insulting to the angels to say that Francisco Franco was on their side. Franco was a far-right authoritarian bully in the same league as Hitler and Mussolini. He killed many people in the name of God. Allied France did support the Church. Charles de Gaulle was a devout Catholic. The Nazis were deists masquerading as Christians. The Western Allies were truly on the side of Christianity. The Church as a whole did not support Franco. Some misguided officials supported him. Other Catholics opposed him since they saw through his deceit. The Catholics that were killed by the communists were killed because they were Catholic, not because they were fascist. Communists hate Christianity. Fascists hide behind it. They are both evil ideologies. ISIS is fascist. They use religion to justify their actions. Socialists do not generally do that. They are very secular. People like you make me favor Evangelicals over Catholics sometimes. Evangelicals honor God and liberty. Traditionalist Catholics sometimes honor brutal oppression.

Well, for the record, the founding fathers were Freemasons, that’s where the emphasis of “Freedom of Religion” comes from, really, it’s simply the Masonic belief in religious relativism, I don’t know what we’re calling it now but i’ll still call it relativism/modernism, or the belief that all religions are equal, which is false.

Tell me what Franco’s Spain did that was “exploiting” Catholicism, I am sure anyone here would realise how serious the situation was in civil war era Spain had they been there to see that other means of control were needed.

Franco used Catholicism to enforce the power of the almighty state. I am concerned that Poland may do the same thing in the future.

 

[KSU]

Poland appears to favor Traditionalist Catholicism over liberty. Traditionalist Catholicism is quite authoritarian and anti-liberty. The Daily Stormer has praised Traditionalist Catholicism. That site is openly neo-Nazi.

I think you are the one who needs to be prayed for. You are an Axis sympathizer who thinks that fascism is ordained by God. God is not a fascist. He loves and respects everyone. Fascism does not respect the natural rights that God gave us. Fascism uses God to enforce the power of the state. I think it is quite insulting to the angels to say that Francisco Franco was on their side. Franco was a far-right authoritarian bully in the same league as Hitler and Mussolini. He killed many people in the name of God. Allied France did support the Church. Charles de Gaulle was a devout Catholic. The Nazis were deists masquerading as Christians. The Western Allies were truly on the side of Christianity. The Church as a whole did not support Franco. Some misguided officials supported him. Other Catholics opposed him since they saw through his deceit. The Catholics that were killed by the communists were killed because they were Catholic, not because they were fascist. Communists hate Christianity. Fascists hide behind it. They are both evil ideologies. ISIS is fascist. They use religion to justify their actions. Socialists do not generally do that. They are very secular. People like you make me favor Evangelicals over Catholics sometimes. Evangelicals honor God and liberty. Traditionalist Catholics sometimes honor brutal oppression.

Franco used Catholicism to enforce the power of the almighty state. I am concerned that Poland may do the same thing in the future.

As I said, I’ll pray for you my friend.

 

[Nelka]

The source of this article is Gazeta Wyborcza, the far left-wing anti-clerical and anti-church paper in Poland. Interesting that Fox would choose this paper as a source of information.

Since the left of center PO party lost their grip on power in Poland in last year’s election, that party and its media outlets (GW) have been conducting a global campaign to undermine the current government. This article is yet another front for that anti-church and anti-government action.

Yep I wouldn’t believe anything fox news said.