P
Perplexity
Guest
prodigalson: I’m a little confused at where we stand at the moment. You appear to have abandoned the following objections:
- My argument is fallacious because evidence of absence isn’t absence of evidence.
- My argument is fallacious because it’s an argument from silence.
- My argument is fallacious because of its assumptions.
- My argument is fallacious because I’m projecting.
Ok, then Paul could have easily made an argument from the Empty Tomb much like those advocated nowadays.Not in the least. Of course I believe that those texts were based on earlier tradition, and of course I believe Paul was well aware of said traditions.
I can’t get too into it at the moment but I find it plausible that Christians around the time Luke was writing his gospel came to believe in the empty tomb, that is, that this was a development not present in Paul’s time.Knowing, as we do, that Luke and Paul were contemporaries and disciples in the very earliest days of Christianity, this seems to suggest that Paul would have very likely indeed believed in the empty tomb.
I think you’d better tell that to 2 Corinthians:
“When I was with you, I certainly gave you proof that I am an apostle. For I patiently did many signs and wonders and miracles among you.” (2 Cor. 12:12)
“God did extraordinary miracles through Paul,” (Acts 19:11)
None of these indicate Paul performed miracles to verify that he received the Gospel from Jesus."In Lystra there sat a man crippled in his feet, who was lame from birth and had never walked. He listened to Paul as he was speaking. Paul looked directly at him, saw that he had faith to be healed and called out, “Stand up on your feet!” At that, the man jumped up and began to walk. When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have come down to us in human form!” Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes because he was the chief speaker. The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates because he and the crowd wanted to offer sacrifices to them. But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting: “Men, why are you doing this? We too are only men, human like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them. In the past, he let all nations go their own way. Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy.” (Acts 14:8-17)
This is an entirely new objection. The only reason we’re talking about Modus Tollens’ is because you claimed my argument committed the fallacy of assumption (i.e., begging the question or circularity). As I showed, it’s not fallacious. You seem to have conceded this (as I mentioned earlier) and are now moving on to the truth of my premises.Well, it may remain Modus Tollens, but it doesn’t remain right. If the premises aren’t true, the conclusions aren’t true. You may feel confident that each premise is more plausibly true but you have failed to demonstrate why anyone else should think so.
By this reasoning, Paul shouldn’t have said a lot of the things he did say in 1 Cor. 15. For instance, when he tells them Jesus appeared to all the Apostles even himself. If their questioning of his authority was this deep, it’s silly for him to say “Jesus appeared to me too.”Indeed, but regardless of his authority, people were already apparently questioning it, so it becomes a matter of appealing to arguments which the audience can actually engage in intellectual consideration.
This would completely dismantle the arguments for the empty tomb, even nowadays. We don’t have any useful access to Jesus’ alleged tomb, or any access at all to witnesses beyond the missionaries. This seems to shoot yourself in the foot.The point is that, regardless of their being informed, it serves no use in debate. Without access to the tomb or witnesses beyond the missionaries, it amounts to asking, “If Jesus was not resurrected, then why was he resurrected?” Circular argument par excellence.
I don’t understand what the objection is anymore. Initially, I thought you were saying it’s fallacious to form expectations of other people because “You cannot speak for the actions or lack thereof of another person on a logical level.” Now, it seems you’ve conceded my rebuttal.You could be surprised, but your surprise and previous knowledge of him alone would not justify you in denying it. Many criminals and murderers lived otherwise normal, upstanding lives. Again, if this were a truly reasonable argument, many murderers would slip easily through the cracks of our judicial system.