On leaving the park when it's time

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A whistle works with a group or with distances. It might be, for instance, something you need with a broken ankle or as a coach. It is silly and could be insulting at close distances with a single other person who understands voice commands.

Deciding not to go because of disobedience last time is a natural consequence. “I like being at the park with you, but only if I don’t have a battle getting you to leave when it is time. Besides, if you do that to your friend’s parent when you are invited places with your friends, they’ll just stop inviting you and invite someone who follows directions, instead. The way to get yourself invited to do fun things is to be enjoyable for people who invite you, too.”
The main thing is to keep the explanation short, the verdict firm, and the criticism behavior-based rather than personal. You can encourage with: “You’ll get another chance, but not today.”
 
By the way, I have heard psychologists say that it does take people, especially children, a certain amount of time to “change gears.” This varies by the person.

Since this is a four-year-old, the next visit to the park needs to start with a reminder of the conditions:
“Last time, when I gave you a warning ahead of time that we would be going and then later told you it was time to go, you wouldn’t come. Can we agree that this time you will be ready to go if I give you those warnings about time running out? Do you need more of a warning than last time? Alright, I can give you the first warning 15 minutes ahead of time and the final warning 5 minutes ahead of time. OK, and then what is going to happen if you decide not to come when the time is up? OK, good. I think we have an agreement. Go and have fun!”

When the child is older, you can decide whether or not the amount of time they like is a realistic expectation for the world at large. You do have to send them out into the world with reasonable expectations about how they are going to come off to the rest of the world. At four, though, set them up to succeed. You want the boy to feel you are working with him and that he can please you.
 
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That style of dealing with kids works for some parents, but it’s a lot easier on the parent/grandparent if you train children to come on command. A parent/grandparent shouldn’t need to speak an essay’s worth to get obedience. Plus once you set up the negotiation process, they’ll want that for everything. It’s much easier to just gain obedience. “Because I said so.” Those are four good words. Children need to have a little bit of fear that your love can be revoked or your mood switched.

Now for the modern feminist/pussy father this will seem abhorrent, but don’t forget that these very same people have “boundaries” and revoke their love when they don’t get things their way in their own relationships. They are prone to divorce etc… No love is unconditional, not even God’s love.
 
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PetraG said:
A whistle works with a group or with distances. It might be, for instance, something you need with a broken ankle or as a coach. It is silly and could be insulting at close distances with a single other person who understands voice commands.
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I think if you’ll read the OP, the first case much better describes the situations we’re talking about than the latter.

My point is this: if you have a kid which you are physically incapable of keeping up with due to physical issues, then you must have the child trained to obey commands unquestioningly. This training should occur at home.

By the way, my kids learned the 5-4-3-2-1-BIGTROUBLE. I know a lot of the more liberal people here won’t approve. However, no matter what is going on, I know 100% that as soon as I start counting I will have their undivided attention before I hit 2.

I’m a teacher, and it’s kind of cute. If I start the countdown in class, about half the kids don’t really care much, and about half of them freeze in their tracks. I can infer that quite a lot of other parents use the same method. 😃
 
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I completely agree with this, but I’d add that different methods aren’t mutually exclusive. There’s nothing wrong with having talks, explaining reasons, and also having more immediate techniques at the same time.

For example, I explained to my son about streets, not chasing balls, red lights, etc. But if I had ever seen him running toward a busy street, I would probably have spanked him.
 
Lara said:
That style of dealing with kids works for some parents, but it’s a lot easier on the parent/grandparent if you train children to come on command. A parent/grandparent shouldn’t need to speak an essay’s worth to get obedience. Plus once you set up the negotiation process, they’ll want that for everything. It’s much easier to just gain obedience. “Because I said so.” Those are four good words. Children need to have a little bit of fear that your love can be revoked or your mood switched.

Now for the modern feminist/pussy father this will seem abhorrent, but don’t forget that these very same people have “boundaries” and revoke their love when they don’t get things their way in their own relationships. They are prone to divorce etc… No love is unconditional, not even God’s love.
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The “because I said so” method is not universally effective, particularly not with teenagers. A good boss will listen to employees, but still be the boss. Likewise, a good parent listens to children, but is still the ultimate authority. In either case, a good leader tries to preserve the desire to please, rather than trying to rule out of fear alone.

Having said that, we taught our children that different authority figures would have different rules, and they needed to comply with the rules of whoever we left in charge. They had authority, because we gave them the authority. If Grandma had said, “When I say come, you come,” then that would have been the rule. We’d back her up.

I don’t know what you’re talking about with it being “effeminate” to talk about boundaries. A boundary is nothing other than a line that is not to be crossed with natural consequences that depend on the violation. If, for instance, a parent decides that they have the authority to make the parenting rules and their parents decide they don’t have to follow them, well sorry, but this time the tables are turned and it is the parent who gets to say to the grandparents: “because I said so.” The grandparent who originally taught the parents that the person in charge doesn’t owe anyone else any room to negotiate cannot complain when the grandparents are the ones told “my way or the highway, love.” You can’t have your cake and eat it, too.
benjamin1973 said:
I completely agree with this, but I’d add that different methods aren’t mutually exclusive. There’s nothing wrong with having talks, explaining reasons, and also having more immediate techniques at the same time.

For example, I explained to my son about streets, not chasing balls, red lights, etc. But if I had ever seen him running toward a busy street, I would probably have spanked him.
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Yes, methods will depend on the child, on the parent, on urgency and so on. Absolutely!
 
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You can’t really be serious. Are you actually trying to argue that because they both fall into the category of “reward”, giving a child the privilege of going out to play in a park when they are responsible enough to come when they are called and whistle training a human being with candy are the same thing? You honestly can’t tell why one is appropriate and the other isn’t? 4yos with typical development absolutely can understand that disobedience adversely effects their relationship with their grandmother and the level of trust she has in him. What is more, it is a responsible parent’s job to teach them that. Little rewards can be helpful when trying to establish routines and good habits, but the OPs issue isn’t remembering to put the toothbrush away. Her grandson is being disobedient. He knows what he is supposed to do, but he doesn’t want to do it, so he doesn’t. You’re going to have to have a pretty big bank of Tootsie Rolls that you’re ready to hand over if you want your kid to give up something as fun as playing in the park. Visa versa, you going to have to go to great lengths to get compliance with punishment and make sure whatever you do makes the kid so uncomfortable that he’d rather not finish his game before he comes. This gets pretty dang expensive and exasperating when what you really want to teach your child is a higher level of consciousness than what Pavlov’s dog is capable of, namely, that if my grandma is able to trust that I’ll come when I am called, she will let me go and do fun things. If not, I will not be allowed to do fun things.
 
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If I was the OP, the child would learn to obey me in about 2 days, through an entire complex relationship that I’d establish. He would be hopeful of meaningful rewards, fearful of a good dressing-down or possibly even a spanking, and he would be habituated to follow my orders unquestioningly. He would also realize that when I’m REALLY happy with his behavior, there’s a random chance of a super payout (a trip to get ice cream, or a new toy). That is operant conditioning, and that’s how the human brian works.

In my experience, children are MUCH happier when the wishy-washy stuff goes out the window, and there are clear rules, boundaries, punishments and rewards, and they are enforced 100% all the time. Without the gray area, the child doesn’t have the stress of seeing how far he can push, how much he can get away with, and the inevitable negative reinforcement that comes when an incapable parent starts to show displeasure (and the child doesn’t really understand it’s because he’s acting like a little poop).

In my classes, children laugh a lot. Parents ask to move their children to my class because it’s so fun. That’s because I have good control over the behavior of the children. They will work when I tell them to work, and they will be rewarded with some good-quality play time afterwards-- because instead of spending 30 minutes a day explaining to children why they aren’t supposed to run around the class or attempt to crawl out the window, I give them a good enough dressing-down that they very quickly realize resisting my will is going to end up with them having a bad time.
 
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None of that sounds like candy-enforced whistle training. If you know how to do it right, why would you suggest something so dumb?
 
What is your bias against candy, or against whistles? 😃

Anyway, can we all at least agree that the OP should train the child to behave properly BEFORE going out and having a potential disaster?
 
I’ve heard of the 3-2-1 method, but is there a specific Big Trouble that you implement in the class? I doubt you are using spanking.
Long explanations don’t work with this child. Not getting to visit the park the next day works much better,
Thanks for all the suggestions.
 
haha nono

I don’t use the countdown in class. That’s for my own kids.

The Big Trouble is basically a very sudden and extreme punishment-- a real strong shouting, I will grab the child by the collar of the shirt and force him into a seat, I will make him watch me put his favorite toy up in a cupboard out of reach. Generally, it will be a memorable negative moment.
 
Ok, thanks. I don’t yell at the grandson because a harsh word will make him meltdown.
The school lets you grab a child and force him into a seat? That would be a lawsuit in any school in my (very liberal) area. But more power to you.
 
Some kids respond well to the love and logic method and choices. Saying do you want to leave right now or in 2 minutes? …But my child responds “I never want to leave” ha! But lots of people swear by Love and Logic, there’s even a Love and Logic for Grandparents edition you can probably get from the Library!
 
Nono. Even scolding a child strongly these days is likely to get you fired or worse. The best you can do as a schoolteacher is to provide privileges that you then withhold. I’d probably have an end-of-day snack or game time, provided children don’t accumulate too many points against them. “Oops, I see Johnny talking to Suzy. That’s a point!” is likely to earn Johnny and Suzy some dirty looks, and that’s a powerful incentive against misbehavior.
 
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I think that’s a very nice method.

Keep in mind, though, that we’re talking about a 4 year-old who’s running away. The OP is actually in quite a difficult position, to be honest. She can’t actually get him close enough to present a choice that he has to make.

A cognitive approach would be to talk to the child before going to the park: “Johnny, last time we went to the park, you didn’t come when I called you. That’s very dangerous, and if that happens again today, we might not be able to go to the park anymore. Please repeat what I said. . .” Then when he misbehaves, next time, she will tell him, “I’m sorry Johnny, we won’t be going to the park? Remember, you promised grandma you’d come when called, and you didn’t. That’s the second time that’s happened, so I’m afraid we’ll have to stay in today. If you behave really well today, maybe tomorrow we can try again.”

This is certainly worth doing. However, unless the child respects the custodian, there’s always a real danger of possible harm: the child runs away and gets lost, or insists on climbing a tree and falls out, or whatever.
 
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Right. You can’t yell choices across a playground. However I’m waling better every day, so there’s hope. I went to collect him yesterday and he came when I said it was that or not going to the store afterwards.
 
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