On limiting population growth thru contraception

[buffalo]

population is not the problem in our world. The unequal distribution of resources, education, oppression, immorality, paganism are the reason we have a problem in areas with so called “overpopulation”.

In most of the industrial world we have under population.

Correct, corruption and the failures of men are the reasons…

The earth has tremendous resources and men has tremendous innovative capability. What is needed is the will. Anything else is just laziness.

 

[StAnastasia]

And…in a way to solve those problems that does not require a mass distribution process and doesn’t require products that need petroleum to be made.

This is the importance of the relocalization movement. The average piece of food on your table has traveled 1,500 miles from its source, with all the cheap petroleum that implies. We should try to eat as locally as possible - the locovore movement!

It would seem to me that one of the most important things that needs to be done to help avert a crisis as you played out would be to make sure people know how to use NFP when they no longer had access to contraceptives. Otherwise your going to have millions of babies being born 9 months after the crisis hits and a long time after depending on how long it takes to get a system in place on alternative energy that allows for contraceptives to be distributed nation-wide at regular intervals. Depending on how bad it gets, NFP could be the savior of the U.S ;

 

[StAnastasia]

population is not the problem in our world. The unequal distribution of resources, education, oppression, immorality, paganism are the reason we have a problem in areas with so called “overpopulation”. In most of the industrial world we have under population.

Humans will reach zero popoulation growth – equilibrium between the population of *Homo sapiens *and its environment.

 

[Nate13]

Humans will reach zero popoulation growth – equilibrium between the population of *Homo sapiens *and its environment.

I think you are missing my point here. I’m agreeing with you that yes the Earth in the near future can probably only sustain so many people. In my opinion setting a limit on population growth of 1-2 billion people on Earth is wrong though. I fully expect technological breakthrough’s will occur that will change the way we think. Your numbers are based on assumptions. If any of those assumptions change on you the population growth potential changes.

The education of people your talking about is not something that we should be doing just because we believe there is a crisis on the horizon. We should be teaching people about living within their means and helping people determine how many children they are capable of supporting. We do not live in a communist society though and the amount of children each couple is capable of supporting financially varies. There are also physical and psychological differences that affect how many children each family can support. Thus some families may have 12 kids and some families may have no kids. If we focus on teaching people how to live within their means and to take responsibility for their actions instead of telling people to limit how many children they have to a certain number, we will have much more success. Well informed people with that information can then discern their path in life with God’s help and his final word.

 

[StAnastasia]

I’m agreeing with you that yes the Earth in the near future can probably only sustain so many people.

True.

In my opinion setting a limit on population growth of 1-2 billion people on Earth is wrong though.

I did not set a limit on population. I said that 1-2 billion people was the carrying capacity of earth before petroleum was exploited on a grand scale, starting in 1859.

I fully expect technological breakthrough’s will occur that will change the way we think. Your numbers are based on assumptions. If any of those assumptions change on you the population growth potential changes.

Your numbers are based on assumptions as well, assumptions that breakthroughs will occur. What is undeniable is that we need abundant cheap energy to sustain 7-9 billion people. With nothing in the immediate offing, it would be good to be cautious in our assumptions about how many people earth can support. The only thing I can see that could sustain us is nuclear power, and we’d better get moving on that fast. Even so, there is not an infinite supply of uranium out there.

The education of people your talking about is not something that we should be doing just because we believe there is a crisis on the horizon. We should be teaching people about living within their means and helping people determine how many children they are capable of supporting.

Of course!

We do not live in a communist society though and the amount of children each couple is capable of supporting financially varies. There are also physical and psychological differences that affect how many children each family can support. Thus some families may have 12 kids and some families may have no kids. If we focus on teaching people how to live within their means and to take responsibility for their actions instead of telling people to limit how many children they have to a certain number, we will have much more success. Well informed people with that information can then discern their path in life with God’s help and his final word.

Quite true.

 

[buffalo]

Humans will reach zero popoulation growth – equilibrium between the population of *Homo sapiens *and its environment.

There is no basis for your claim. We do not know what population the earth is capable of supporting. Zero population growth will come as a result of man’s arrogance and ignorance.

 

[StAnastasia]

There is no basis for your claim. We do not know what population the earth is capable of supporting.

Yes, there is a basis. Planet earth is not expanding. There is a finite number of great white sharks the ocean can support. There is a finite number of tigers India can support. There is a finite number of elephants Africa can support. There is a finite number of Nene Hawaii can support.

If you claim that the sustainable number of individuals of a given animal species is infinite, the burden falls upon you to demonstrate why we should believe you.

Zero population growth will come as a result of man’s arrogance and ignorance

False - this is basic math. Zero population growth will be reached when the number of individuals dying stands in equilibrium with the number of individuals being born.

 

[buffalo]

Yes, there is a basis. Planet earth is not expanding. There is a finite number of great white sharks the ocean can support. There is a finite number of tigers India can support. There is a finite number of elephants Africa can support. There is a finite number of Nene Hawaii can support.

If you claim that the sustainable number of individuals of a given animal species is infinite, the burden falls upon you to demonstrate why we should believe you.

False - this is basic math. Zero population growth will be reached when the number of individuals dying stands in equilibrium with the number of individuals being born.

The point is those finite numbers are speculative. How many bacteria can the world support?

Duh… we were discussing the cause of zero population growth.

 

[Nate13]

Yes, there is a basis. Planet earth is not expanding. There is a finite number of great white sharks the ocean can support. There is a finite number of tigers India can support. There is a finite number of elephants Africa can support. There is a finite number of Nene Hawaii can support.

If you claim that the sustainable number of individuals of a given animal species is infinite, the burden falls upon you to demonstrate why we should believe you.

False - this is basic math. Zero population growth will be reached when the number of individuals dying stands in equilibrium with the number of individuals being born.

Haha that assumes complete control over death and life. We have neither. Humans also have a knack for forgetting history. A crisis will hit, a few generations after will remember the lessons they learned from it, and then humans will forget. Later generations will look back upon those past generations and call them fools that were simple minded. We will end up beating our heads against a rock again and the cycle will repeat. Humanity gets a little smarter each time we fall, but its a slow process

In the early 1900’s they thought we were overpopulated as well. Technology gave us a boost and we powered forward. Do you think the people then that said we were overpopulated could have foreseen the events that took place that allowed for the growth we have today? How do you know people 100 years from now aren’t going to be laughing at you because of the future events you didn’t foresee?

 

[StAnastasia]

In the early 1900’s they thought we were overpopulated as well. Technology gave us a boost and we powered forward. Do you think the people then that said we were overpopulated could have foreseen the events that took place that allowed for the growth we have today? How do you know people 100 years from now aren’t going to be laughing at you because of the future events you didn’t foresee?

My case is watertight. The Bronx zoo cannot support an infinite number of African elephants, or Indian tigers, or Homo sapiens, or great white sharks. Likewise, until it begins physically to expand in surface area, the earth cannot support an infinite number of elephants, tigers, humans, or great white sharks.

 

[yosupman]

My case is watertight. The Bronx zoo cannot support an infinite number of African elephants, or Indian tigers, or Homo sapiens, or great white sharks. Likewise, until it begins physically to expand in surface area, the earth cannot support an infinite number of elephants, tigers, humans, or great white sharks.

The total earth never has a static poplulation. Lots of people die every day and lots of people are born. You cannot compare the earth with the bronx zoo. Its comparing apples and apes.

 

[Warrior1979]

There is no basis for your claim.

Actually there is. There still exist some extremely isolated indigenous people on this earth, some of whom have lived in their environments for up to 60,000 years. They live off of what the earth supplies, and have relatively small, zero-growth populations.

 

[buffalo]

Actually there is. There still exist some extremely isolated indigenous people on this earth, some of whom have lived in their environments for up to 60,000 years. They live off of what the earth supplies, and have relatively small, zero-growth populations.

What is their fertility rate? How many children can the woman have?

 

[StAnastasia]

The total earth never has a static poplulation.

We are in agreement. I never claimed that.

Lots of people die every day and lots of people are born.

 

[Warrior1979]

What is their fertility rate?

Better than average, since the live in a natural environment.

How many children can the woman have?

As many as they want.

 

[StAnastasia]

Actually there is. There still exist some extremely isolated indigenous people on this earth, some of whom have lived in their environments for up to 60,000 years. They live off of what the earth supplies, and have relatively small, zero-growth populations.

The two-square mile island of Tikopia in the South Pacific had a stable, sustainable population of about 1,200 people for 3,000 years until whites arrived. They had to have zero population growth, or else they all would have starved. The Earth is Tikopia on a larger scale.

 

[Contarini]

There is no difference in the real world.

On the contrary, it’s precisely in the real world that the two are different.

A person in the OT didn’t reach 30 and say, “Well, I guess I’ll die sometime soon.” Rather, such a person said: “Thank you, God, for preserving me from dying in infancy and from all the dangers that have surrounded me until now–grant me a long and healthy life so that I may see my children’s children and die old and full of days.”

“Average” life expectancy is a pure abstraction and had little to do with how a premodern person experienced life.

Edwin

 

[You]

On the contrary, it’s precisely in the real world that the two are different.

A person in the OT didn’t reach 30 and say, “Well, I guess I’ll die sometime soon.” Rather, such a person said: “Thank you, God, for preserving me from dying in infancy and from all the dangers that have surrounded me until now–grant me a long and healthy life so that I may see my children’s children and die old and full of days.”

“Average” life expectancy is a pure abstraction and had little to do with how a premodern person experienced life.

Edwin

I have never bought into the 30 year lifespan either. If you read the first post I made on this thread, wherever it is, you might notice a slight wry humour about it [in its proper context of course]. But now, I am cursed with my humour and this albatros is around my neck for certain sure.
In a tough physical labour intensive and many battle world with no medicine or doctors suffering nutritionally and from exposure the possibilities for injury and illness are great and the chances of recovery poor.

 

[Nate13]

My case is watertight.

haha then I assume you have bet the wagon then with your life to plan for such an event as your predicting? I’m assuming you have bought some farmland outside of the city and prepared everything you need to sustain yourself there without petroleum to the best of your ability? Maybe have done some investing into gold? I’m not making fun of you here but if your really serious about this I would expect that you would have taken action on it. No one in the government has voiced anything in support of your position. The investment capital to support alternative energy isn’t there yet either, so its semi safe to say they haven’t bought in to what your saying. Maybe what your predicting is true, but I think its farther away then what you think.

 

[StAnastasia]

haha then I assume you have bet the wagon then with your life to plan for such an event as your predicting?

Yes, but I am not a survivalist; I believe in educating whole communities.

I’m assuming you have bought some farmland outside of the city and prepared everything you need to sustain yourself there without petroleum to the best of your ability?