On refutation of the Unmoved Mover

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Anyhow, I think this adds to my point that if after 80 posts there’s no agreement on what “truth” means, nor on whether an infinitely old universe is or isn’t a paradox, and now on who is qualified even to discuss such things, then likely objective the argument isn’t.
You said that “the higher the level of education, the more flaws can be found in the unmoved mover argument.” But all you’re saying here is that on an internet forum, consensus on a contentious topic has not been reached in a bit over 80 posts, so the problem probably has no solution. Other than that, you raised the objection that one cannot rule out other beings like the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but that claim is demonstrably false.

Hardly seems like a good reason to abandon a metaphysical demonstration. If one wants to show that it fails, one need just point out where it goes wrong.
 
Although come to mention it the unmoved mover argument does have attributes of a whacky theory: it’s based on arcane and somewhat convoluted concepts, makes no testable predictions, and as regards the notion that it proves a personal deity :-
Could you describe some of these “arcane and convoluted concepts” and why they are wrong?

The argument is also a metaphysical demonstration. Its conclusion does not need to be falsifiable. However, one is free to try to “falsify” the argument by disputing its premises or logic. Particularly, one could try to deny that change occurs, that change is a transformation from potency to act by something else in act, that a per se causal series is finite, etc.
 
Why not? There are plenty of non-absolute truths around and there is no need for reification for us to ba able to use them perfectly well in our day-to-day lives. All you are doing is shifting the argument from absolute/relative truth to “actual”/ordinary truth. Again we will need a distinguisher to tell one sort of truth from the other. It the absence of a reliable distinguisher, the contrast you are making is useless and cannot be supported.
My point is not to shift the distinction. I reject the absolute/relative truth distinction because relative truth is necessarily contradictory. I am not distinguishing between actual and ordinary truth (“ordinary truth,” whatever that is - you used the term first - would only be truth if it is actual truth). I am saying that which is not absolute is not truth.
But it is not independent of the combination of the symbols and the relevant dictionary.
Lots of propositions are independent of symbols since you can grasp them without using symbols. Certainly what I write in a notebook or vocalize to someone else is represented by symbols, but what I think of is not, at least not necessarily. (I don’t think you’ve responded to this point about the nonsymbolic nature of propositions in the mind yet - if you have, direct me to the post.) I can think of a proposition (like the position of the cat in the other room) without a mental voice or even a mental image. It would follow that propositional content, even if it is sometimes represented by symbols, is not dependent on symbols.
It is not independent of the geographical location of actual cat and the actual room. Since the statement is non-independent then it is not absolute but relative. It is relative to all those external things outside the statement itself.

I disagree. You may think that, but I cannot evaluate the truth claim if I wasn’t there. That makes any absoluteness dependent on my geographical position, ans well as yours and the cat’s. Since there are external dependencies, the claim cannot be absolute, since it depends on things external to itself.
I will agree with Peter Plato here. Geographical location of the cat, the room, and the observer have no bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim. They may have some bearing on whether a particular observer can evaluate a particular claim, but it does not follow that the statement is not absolute.

So I would say a statement like, “The cat is in the other room,” can in principle be evaluated to be true (and by true, I mean absolutely true, since relative truth is a contradictory concept). I would also hold that not all observers can necessarily evaluate the statement, but that has no bearing on the truth of the statement (the statement is true if the cat is, in fact, in the other room).
If I have no way of confirming a statement, then how is that statement useful to me? “There are no odd perfect numbers,” is currently unconfirmable. How is that statement useful.
The “usefulness” of a statement is irrelevant. Also, I’m not denying that some statements cannot be confirmed (or at least cannot be confirmed now). I am arguing that some statements can be confirmed as true, and that we can evaluate some propositions as true. I would also argue that propositions are true independent of observers, since they need not be represented to be true.
 
How can it be a “true image” when we both agree that it is “different” and lacks information? If it lacks information then it falls short of being a true image.

If we lack information of the details of the decimal places, then we may thing that 1.02+ 2.22 = 3. Would that be a true image of the reality?

We disagree. It is not just errors, it is the intrinsic loss of information involved in our sense perceptions. We cannot see ultra violet because our eyes do not register light at that frequency. We cannot hear high pitched sounds like a bat can because our ears do not register those frequencies. We cannot know reality “as it is” because we are lacking complete information about that reality.

rossum
You should read Edward Feser on Elimitivism. Whether or not you are an intentional Elimitivist, you certainly seem to agree with their thinking. See the following. It is a couple of weeks old now so you will have to go back to his previous posts to the beginning of his argument to get the full flavor. But he has good reposts to your position. And of course readers of this thread should also refer to the same articles. Much too long to cover here.
edwardfeser.blogspot.com/

" I am the Way, the Life, the Truth. " ( Jesus Christ )

Linus2nd
 
You continue to mystify me. You have been told that the purpose of philosophy is to serve as a tool to philosophy. It was never intended for average students. Unfortunately, today many average students jump in and after barely surviving 18 hours or so of philosophy feel qualified to trumpet loud and wide about all they " know. " And of course the problem is even worse for the casual " apologist " or antagonist who, after reading a paper back or two, open up on Face Book and broadcast their ignorance to the wide world. And there are many on each side displaying their ignorance daily on these forums. Today, everyone is an expert. Ignorance does not faze them in the least.
You didn’t answer my post #92 to you, so perhaps you didn’t see it, as you’ve just done the same thing again.

Ad hominem is no less a fallacy when you direct it at the entire world.

However, I apologize of behalf of all us unwashed for not realizing that unlike secular philosophy, which challenges our worldview, religious philosophy has the exact opposite purpose of shoring up the status quo by the brilliantly elegant device of dismissing all challenges out of hand. 😃
But I am curious. How would you defend your own faith. What makes you think what you read in the Bible is true?
The Holy Spirit. See 1 Cor 1:18-31.
 
inocente;11110309:
The article you cited makes the common assumption that the argument is about God, but even in the form given by Aquinas the argument only attempts to prove a first cause rather than establish its nature.
This is false (although it is a common misconception). First, you originally said in post #79 that there were obvious problems with the argument for an Unmoved Mover, not for God. So the argument in question is not assuming that the being in question is God. Much further argumentation is required to show that the Being which is Pure Act is God - but it is not taken strictly on faith.

Thomas uses the phrase “to which everyone gives the name God” after each of the Five Ways in ST because 1). the arguments there are summaries which he fleshes out in more detail in other places, like Summa Contra Gentiles (ST was an introductory text on philosophy and theology, and most people reading it already understood the Five Ways), and 2). because he is noting that he will go on to demonstrate that the Being which is Pure Act is God (which he does go on to do). That is not part of the argument for the Unmoved Mover.
You’ll see that I said the article you cited makes the assumption that the argument is about God. It wasn’t me making that assumption, it was me pointing out that your article makes that assumption.
Anyone who would suggest the Flying Spaghetti Monster as a reductio ad absurdum of the argument for the Unmoved Mover does not understand how the argument actually goes. Particularly, they do not understand fundamental principles of Thomistic metaphysics, like actuality and potentiality: the Unmoved Mover could not be unmoved unless it were Pure Act, which would entail its being immaterial (since anything composed of matter can move, or change). The Flying Spaghetti Monster would be a material being and would have potentiality, so it would be contradictory to call it Pure Act.
Again, I was pointing out that the article you cited makes the common assumption that the argument is about God, not making that assumption myself. I gave the FSM as an example of why the assumption is wrong.
As far as the Force goes, the objection would require a lot more argumentation. If you mean the Force as shown in the Star Wars movies… then that does not seem to be part of our reality (in the sense that we can’t use the Force for telekenesis etc.).
I think if we throw away all the religious baggage acquired by the argument, the unmoved mover is really a principle somewhat akin to the principle of conservation of energy (but without evidence), and the Star Wars Force then fits reasonably well as a possible hypothesis.
Faith alone can work, but doesn’t work for everyone. If the argument for an Unmoved Mover can help someone to faith who would not find it otherwise, then why object to it?
If you just capitalized the unmoved mover to deify it, you fell into the trap of that common wrong assumption. 🙂
I think the argument for the Unmoved Mover, properly understood, can help a lot of otherwise obstinate people to believe - because it is a strong argument, and many people, understandably, are hesitant to make faith-based decisions that fly in the face of reason. The argument for the Unmoved Mover can help people to see that faith and reason are compatible.
Let’s be clear - an advertizing campaign which tried to make out that the argument proves the Christian God would be banned for dishonesty, because as you said earlier that assumption is unwarranted.
Yes, it is widely misunderstood, even by some who support it, I agree. What is your point?
That the ends don’t justify the means of conveniently leaving the wrong assumption go uncorrected in the hope of making converts.
*This, however, is not true. I did not say that one needs training in philosophy to understand the argument, and one certainly does not need “as much training as brain surgery or quantum physics.”
You said something to the effect of, “Educated people more easily see the flaws in the argument for the Unmoved Mover.” That is an appeal to authority, which is fallacious when there is no reason for the authority in question is qualified to assess the argument and unbiased. I brought up philosophers of religion only to propose a non-fallacious appeal to authority, since philosophers of religion are* qualified to assess the argument and (in the case of atheist philosophers of religion and Christian philosophers who disagree with the First Way) are unbiased.
OK, I pushed your philosophers of religion beyond your intent. 🙂

All philosophical arguments have flaws. It is always possible to find weaknesses in any argument, and just because the unmoved mover has acquired religious overtones doesn’t make it immune. I said “the higher the level of education, the more flaws can be found in the unmoved mover argument”. My intent was “the higher the level of education, the more flaws can be found in any philosophical argument”, which still doesn’t seem controversial.

My comments were aimed (and still are) at the strangely lopsided notion where unwarranted assumptions go uncorrected (presumably in the belief that it puts backsides on pews), while critiques are dismissed by calling them misconceptions.

We common men don’t deserve to be used for ping pong, especially after Copland wrote us his Fanfare.
 
You said that “the higher the level of education, the more flaws can be found in the unmoved mover argument.” But all you’re saying here is that on an internet forum, consensus on a contentious topic has not been reached in a bit over 80 posts, so the problem probably has no solution. Other than that, you raised the objection that one cannot rule out other beings like the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but that claim is demonstrably false.

Hardly seems like a good reason to abandon a metaphysical demonstration. If one wants to show that it fails, one need just point out where it goes wrong.
As said before, the FSM was an example in stating that the argument makes claim to prove any particular deity.

For now we can stick with whether an infinite regression is more or less paradoxical than a first cause, currently there’s no need to add to the argument’s woes. 👍
 
Could you describe some of these “arcane and convoluted concepts” and why they are wrong?

The argument is also a metaphysical demonstration. Its conclusion does not need to be falsifiable. However, one is free to try to “falsify” the argument by disputing its premises or logic. Particularly, one could try to deny that change occurs, that change is a transformation from potency to act by something else in act, that a per se causal series is finite, etc.
The word falsify usually has the meaning “to disprove by evidence”. To be falsifiable the argument would need to make a testable prediction, which it fails to do, so in scientific terms it’s what’s known as not even wrong.

If it could be disproved by logic then probably it would have a long time ago, just as if it could be proven by logic then probably it would have a long time ago.

As far as arcane and convoluted concepts, how about potentiality and actuality? The idea could be said to survive in modern physics, but in a very highly modified form. From what we know is an unmoved mover, something which acts but is not acted upon, even possible outside our imagination?
 
All philosophical arguments have flaws.
Apparently “all philosophical arguments have flaws” except the philosophical argument that shows that “all philosophical arguments have flaws” which must be true. But since all philosophical arguments have flaws, then any philosophical argument to show that “all philosophical arguments have flaws” must itself be flawed.

If you want to maintain that the conclusion “all philosophical arguments have flaws” is true and can be demonstrably so, then there must be a true and non-flawed philosophical argument to do that. Unless, of course, it is axiomatically true, but I am not sure anyone except you would subscribe to such a claim.

It would be easy to write a non-flawed philosophical argument that is indisputable which would show not only that your conclusion is not axiomatic, but clearly false.
  1. All triangles are two-dimensional, closed figures with three sides.
  2. All two-dimensional, closed figures with three sides have three angles.
Therefore all triangles have three angles.

This is an example that clearly demonstrates that all philosophical arguments are not flawed.
 
The word falsify usually has the meaning “to disprove by evidence”. To be falsifiable the argument would need to make a testable prediction, which it fails to do, so in scientific terms it’s what’s known as not even wrong.
That is a prejudical and " unfalsifiable " statement. It is the unfalsifiable assumption that only science can disclose truth at any level. Even in our daily lives we do things, make countless decisions that are " unscientific."
If it could be disproved by logic then probably it would have a long time ago, just as if it could be proven by logic then probably it would have a long time ago.
And this does not apply to science? That certainly doesn’t hold.

[QUOTEAs far as arcane and convoluted concepts, how about potentiality and actuality? The idea could be said to survive in modern physics, but in a very highly modified form. From what we know is an unmoved mover, something which acts but is not acted upon, even possible outside our imagination?
[/QUOTE]

I think you misunderstand what is meant by those concepts. " Aquinas " by Edward Feser explains the concepts very well. You can buy it cheaply or check it out at a good library. And since you are in the habit of responding in this forum, it would be good for you to get a handle on Thomas’ philosophical concepts.

Linus2nd
 
The truths we deal with here and now are all relative. Is 1 + 1 = 2 true? Relatively, yes because we are making some standard assumptions. Is 1 + 1= 2 Absolutely True? No it is not, because it is not true in base 2. In base 2, 1 + 1 = 10 is true and 1 + 1 = 2 is meaningless because the symbol “2” has no meaning in base 2. It is like saying 5 + 5 = A in base 10, which is meaningless, but is true in hexadecimal, base 16.

rossum
Actually, you are wrong here. The use of symbols (i.e. 1, 2, 3, etc.) are all subjective but what is Absolute is the numbers that already existed. Once someone discovered how much A+B=C they inserted symbols to represent numbers that were already there which is Absolute. This is called Mathematical induction. Think of the dominoes. If we took plain dark dominoes with nothing on them they would just be dominoes. Now, if we stacked up 2 of the dominoes next to each other and pushed them over, we would have two dominoes left over. It took one domino to hit another domino in order to have 2 fallen dominoes. Therefore, one domino that hits another domino cannot in any way shape or form have 8 dominoes appear from 2 fallen dominoes. This proves that the symbols are subjective but the figures of the number themselves is absolute, which points to absolute truth.
 
You’ll see that I said the article you cited makes the assumption that the argument is about God. It wasn’t me making that assumption, it was me pointing out that your article makes that assumption.
The article says:
Many people would be tempted to suggest that even if it were true that there was such a force, going ahead and calling it “God” would quickly strain credulity. Nonetheless, as Professor Feser beautifully explains, logic alone would demonstrate that the force in question would have all of the characteristics of the classical Western notion of the Creator. For instance, inasmuch as there must be an ultimate non-contingent force, its non-contingency indicates that (as held in monotheism) it must be singular, for if there were more than one mover each would be limited – and hence contingent – deriving their power from some earlier force. Such a force would also need to be immaterial as material things are changeable and therefore contingent. This being would not come into or go out of existence but simply always exist. Finally, as the source of all change, this prime mover would be the ultimate cause of things coming to have the qualities and attributes that they do – eminently, if not formally. Inasmuch as that would include all powers, we would conclude that this being is all powerful and all knowledgeable.
Obviously these are sketches of the demonstrations for the qualities of God which cover hundreds of pages in books like Summa Theologica. But the article does not assume that the Unmoved Mover is God - I am not sure how someone could hope to make such a claim in light of the above paragraph. It explicitly addresses the common objection.
Again, I was pointing out that the article you cited makes the common assumption that the argument is about God, not making that assumption myself. I gave the FSM as an example of why the assumption is wrong.
Huh? As I’ve demonstrated, the FSM is a seriously flawed candidate for the Unmoved Mover (since it could not be Pure Act), and anyone who would propose it simply does not understand the argument. The FSM is not “an example of why the assumption is wrong.”

(To be clear, the debate is over whether the argument could apply to any deity, which as the failure of the FSM example shows, is false. Cosmological arguments have been used by a variety of monotheists, so obviously it has been applied to prove the existence of both, for instance, the Christian God and Allah, who are in some senses “different.” However, what one could not claim is that Gods like Zeus or the FSM are candidates, or that the argument assumes anything about the Unmoved Mover. All it shows is that there is an Unmoved Mover/Unchanged Changer which is Pure Act, which happens to be a great conclusion if one wants to go on to prove various other qualities of said being like oneness, simplicity, omnipotence, etc.)
I think if we throw away all the religious baggage acquired by the argument, the unmoved mover is really a principle somewhat akin to the principle of conservation of energy (but without evidence), and the Star Wars Force then fits reasonably well as a possible hypothesis.
Hm? The argument proves that there is an Unmoved Mover, which is Being Itself. The principle of conservation of energy is just an abstraction about the material universe, not any sort of being or thing itself - and certainly not Pure Actuality, the Being responsible causally for all motion/change.
If you just capitalized the unmoved mover to deify it, you fell into the trap of that common wrong assumption. 🙂
I capitalize it because I do regard the Unmoved Mover as the Christian God. (That is a step of faith, mind you, but not an assumption, since whether I believe it is the Christian God or not, the Unmoved Mover is one, is simple, is omnipotent, etc. - that much is proved with reason.)

In any case, are you looking for any reason not to respond to the actual argument for the Unmoved Mover? My capitalizing conventions are hardly relevant to the discussion at hand.
Let’s be clear - an advertizing campaign which tried to make out that the argument proves the Christian God would be banned for dishonesty, because as you said earlier that assumption is unwarranted.
Could you restate what you mean here? I don’t understand. Are you saying that it is dishonest to say that the Unmoved Mover is the Christian God (or that I said such a thing)? I said that the argument strictly speaking does not claim to establish the existence of God, although from it we establish that Pure Act has many of the qualities of the traditionally understood monotheistic God. Going from the God of philosophical theism to the God of Christianity requires a step of faith based on the resurrection of Christ. I’ve never denied that.
That the ends don’t justify the means of conveniently leaving the wrong assumption go uncorrected in the hope of making converts.
Could you clarify how anyone is leaving the wrong assumption uncorrected? In this topic, Linus, Linux, and I have pointed out empther’s error in understanding, specifically because his idea that the argument relies on the impossibility of the temporal regress could lead to his making a less powerful argument. I think Catholics need education in the force of Aquinas’s Five Ways as much as atheists.
 
All philosophical arguments have flaws. It is always possible to find weaknesses in any argument, and just because the unmoved mover has acquired religious overtones doesn’t make it immune. I said “the higher the level of education, the more flaws can be found in the unmoved mover argument”. My intent was “the higher the level of education, the more flaws can be found in any philosophical argument”, which still doesn’t seem controversial.
True to form, you seem to be redirecting the conversation away from any particular philosophical argument and toward a prima facie rejection of philosophical enterprise in general.

I am aware that educated people, particularly those skilled in rhetoric, could probably pretend to find more flaws in an argument, but that doesn’t matter. If one wants to disprove it, then one need only articulate which premise or logical step is false. No need for diversion.
My comments were aimed (and still are) at the strangely lopsided notion where unwarranted assumptions go uncorrected (presumably in the belief that it puts backsides on pews), while critiques are dismissed by calling them misconceptions.
This is unfair. Neither I nor anyone else is intentionally leaving “unwarranted assumptions uncorrected” (there is evidence in this topic to the contrary). Furthermore, if the critiques are misconceptions, then I’m going to call it as it is; do you expect me to yield to straw men and caricatures when the argument is sound, or what? If you don’t think your critiques are based on misconceptions, then please defend them adequately. It is not my fault that most critiques of the cosmological argument fail, and I’m not going to stop defending the argument simply because poor objections have been raised.
As said before, the FSM was an example in stating that the argument makes claim to prove any particular deity.
Okay, but the FSM example is straightforwardly refuted because the FSM cannot be Pure Act, so it is irrelevant. While one could employ the Unmoved Mover argument for any of the major monotheistic religions, it is flatly false that it can be used to prove any particular deity.
For now we can stick with whether an infinite regression is more or less paradoxical than a first cause, currently there’s no need to add to the argument’s woes. 👍
Yeah, unfortunately in a topic about whether or not the proof for the Unmoved Mover can be refuted, you can’t just gesture toward things like “whether an infinite regression is more or less paradoxical than a first cause.” You’d need to spell out these purported objections in detail. (And what are “the argument’s woes” anyway? You have basically given us one - that the argument could be used to prove the existence of the FSM, the Force, or the conservation of energy - which demonstrably fails, so I’m not sure the term “woes” is justified.)

Not to mention, all of the debate with empther here is irrelevant to the proof, since it’s about a per accidens causal series, which is not necessary for the argument. See my post #78 if you’d like to attempt to articulate an actual objection and dispute whether a per se causal series can in principle be infinite.
The word falsify usually has the meaning “to disprove by evidence”. To be falsifiable the argument would need to make a testable prediction, which it fails to do, so in scientific terms it’s what’s known as not even wrong.

If it could be disproved by logic then probably it would have a long time ago, just as if it could be proven by logic then probably it would have a long time ago.
It has been proven by evidence (that change occurs, that change is a reduction from potency to act) and logic for quite a while. Like evolution, which has also been proved by evidence and logic, some people persist in rejecting it, often because they don’t understand it.
As far as arcane and convoluted concepts, how about potentiality and actuality? The idea could be said to survive in modern physics, but in a very highly modified form. From what we know is an unmoved mover, something which acts but is not acted upon, even possible outside our imagination?
By describing the “convoluted concepts” and why they are wrong, I mean actually describing what they are and how they are wrong. Whether modern physics uses them consciously doesn’t matter. Can you dispute that “Potency and Act divide being in such a way that whatever is, is either pure act or of necessity is composed of potency and act as primary and intrinsic principles”? Or, to put it more colloquially, can you provide a counterexample to the truth that all things are one thing and have the potential to be other things?

As far as whether Pure Act is possible, the argument asserts neither that it is or is not, but it demonstrates that Pure Act is necessary for change to occur. What the argument seeks to prove is whether “something which acts but is not acted upon [is] even possible outside of our imagination.” The answer, from the starting point, is we don’t know, so let’s not assume one way or the other.
 
Can you dispute that “Potency and Act divide being in such a way that whatever is, is either pure act or of necessity is composed of potency and act as primary and intrinsic principles”? Or, to put it more colloquially, can you provide a counterexample to the truth that all things are one thing and have the potential to be other things?
I have been thinking of this, and it’s probably worth providing some examples so we don’t waste time.

First, consider a ball of clay. The clay is actually round but has the potential to be a variety of shapes. I can press the clay together, for instance, using my hands to flatten it, and then the clay will actually be flattened (and, in this case, will still have the potential to be round again). The clay at any given point is actually something and has some other potentials depending on what it is not but could be, hence the above quote. Its potencies cannot actualize themselves; the clay only flattens because my hands, which are in act, flatten it. But my hands only can flatten it because my muscles are pressing my hands together. My muscles contract and expand only because certain ions are released into specialized cells, but those ions are only released because action potentials are reaching muscle cells.

At any given point that I am flattening the clay, there is a per se series of causes (the clay flattening, my muscles contracting, ions bonding to specialized proteins, orbiting electrons forming pairs), which is simultaneous and in which the causes I’ve named instrumentally have derivative causal power*. The clay does not flatten itself but by what is imparted to it. The surface of my hands do not move themselves but are moved by my muscles, which only contract because calcium ions are bonding to intracellular structures, which is only occurring because of the interaction between calcium ions and proteins. But it would be impossible for every cause in a series to have derivative causal power; if no cause has non-derivative causal power, then there would not be any causal power in the series, so there must be something which has causal power in itself without being moved itself, hence Pure Act. (This is why an infinite per se causal series is impossible: if all causal power were derivative, then there would not actually be any causal power.)

*There is also a per accidens causal series, since the firing of the action potential at the brain, its traveling to the muscles in my arms, and the closing my hands are not all simultaneous. However, examining any single instant of that per accidens causal series would reveal a per se causal series.

So there is really no conflict with modern physics. I think few people realize how scientifically unintrusive are the metaphysical principles on which the First Way rests (but since modern science implicitly relies on and presupposes them, it is unsurprising that they do not and could not conflict with science proper). Actuality and potentiality are, I think, difficult to deny. A slightly simpler example would be hydrogen and oxygen atoms. They are actually H2 and O2, but inherent in them is the potentiality to combust and form H2O if acted upon by, say, a flame. But they only do so when acted upon. They do not combust without being acted upon; even “spontaneous combustion” involves molecular action. Before they are acted upon, they merely have combustion with each other in potency, as something inherent in their forms as hydrogen and oxygen molecules. (They also have other potencies. Oxygen, for instance, could alternatively oxidize iron or other metals.)
 
You didn’t answer my post #92 to you, so perhaps you didn’t see it, as you’ve just done the same thing again.
I didn’t see anything there that needed a response.
Ad hominem is no less a fallacy when you direct it at the entire world.
No ad hominem. :confused:.

I don’t think you have room to argue against ad hominems since that is you favorite sport, as your post # 92 typifies:

" Careful now, that’s unnervingly close to the dilettante’s cry that disbelievers are too ignorant and unsophisticated to understand their whacky theories.

Although come to mention it the unmoved mover argument does have attributes of a whacky theory: it’s based on arcane and somewhat convoluted concepts, makes no testable predictions, and as regards the notion that it proves a personal deity :-

“But he hasn’t got anything on,” a little child said.
“Did you ever hear such innocent prattle?” said its father. And one person whispered to another what the child had said, “He hasn’t anything on. A child says he hasn’t anything on.”
“But he hasn’t got anything on!” the whole town cried out at last.
The Emperor shivered, for he suspected they were right. But he thought, “This procession has got to go on.” So he walked more proudly than ever, as his noblemen held high the train that wasn’t there at all. " ( from Inocente ) What would you call that? Is this not ad hominem writ large?

However, I apologize of behalf of all us unwashed for not realizing that unlike secular philosophy, which challenges our worldview, religious philosophy has the exact opposite purpose of shoring up the status quo by the brilliantly elegant device of dismissing all challenges out of hand. 😃
No attempt was made of " dismissing all challenges out of hand, " that is the device you have been using. All I pointed out is that scientism is an " unfalsefiable " position itself. Science directs the intellect toward one sort of truth, philosophy another, Theology another, Divine Revelation another, common sense another. Each is valid in its own sphere. Scientism is false in that it claims for itself the authority to judge the validity of all others.

[The Holy Spirit. See http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%201:18-31&version=NIV”]1 Cor 1:18-31.

:confused: Doesn’t seem like proof of any thing to me.

How about this: " For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. ever since the cretion of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal powerer and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things than have been made. ( Rom. 1: 19-20 and similarly: Acts 14: 15, 17: 27-28; Wis 13: 1-9 )

Is this not philosophy at the common sense level? So why your continuous rant against Philosophy? You may not understand it, that does not mean it has no or little truth value. It simply means either that you cannot understand it or you have not devoted enough diligence and time to understand it.

Linus2nd
 
That is a prejudical and " unfalsifiable " statement. It is the unfalsifiable assumption that only science can disclose truth at any level. Even in our daily lives we do things, make countless decisions that are " unscientific."
No it isn’t unless you’re saying that the argument makes a testable prediction, in which case let’s hear it. Otherwise, if it doesn’t make any such predictions, then it cannot be falsified by empirical evidence.

That’s not a debating point, it’s a straight fact.
And this does not apply to science? That certainly doesn’t hold.
No it doesn’t apply since in science the arbiter is evidence.
I think you misunderstand what is meant by those concepts. " Aquinas " by Edward Feser explains the concepts very well. You can buy it cheaply or check it out at a good library. And since you are in the habit of responding in this forum, it would be good for you to get a handle on Thomas’ philosophical concepts.
You didn’t tackle my argument there, you just implied I’m uneducated, so I will also make a reading suggestion for you :): catholic.com/blog/matt-fradd/responding-to-the-ad-hominem-fallacy
 
Obviously these are sketches of the demonstrations for the qualities of God which cover hundreds of pages in books like Summa Theologica. But the article does not assume that the Unmoved Mover is God - I am not sure how someone could hope to make such a claim in light of the above paragraph. It explicitly addresses the common objection.
Merely listing a few attributes and saying they are somewhat similar to how Christians think of God is far from proof. There’s not even any attempt to work out how many other conceptions could have the same few attributes, there might be thousands. It’s rather like wanting to leave work on time at weekend, let’s just gloss over the details and assume.
Huh? As I’ve demonstrated, the FSM is a seriously flawed candidate for the Unmoved Mover (since it could not be Pure Act), and anyone who would propose it simply does not understand the argument. The FSM is not “an example of why the assumption is wrong.”
(To be clear, the debate is over whether the argument could apply to any deity, which as the failure of the FSM example shows, is false. Cosmological arguments have been used by a variety of monotheists, so obviously it has been applied to prove the existence of both, for instance, the Christian God and Allah, who are in some senses “different.” However, what one could not claim is that Gods like Zeus or the FSM are candidates, or that the argument assumes anything about the Unmoved Mover. All it shows is that there is an Unmoved Mover/Unchanged Changer which is Pure Act, which happens to be a great conclusion if one wants to go on to prove various other qualities of said being like oneness, simplicity, omnipotence, etc.)
The FSM is not intended to be taken seriously, but if its Noodly Appendage is disallowed then the god of intelligent design must also be disallowed, since one is a satire on the other, although currently I can’t remember which.

Though you could say why you think it isn’t a candidate, since the website confirms that “By design, the only dogma allowed …] is the rejection of dogma”, and Pastafarians don’t appear to agree on much other than light-hearted fun.
Hm? The argument proves that there is an Unmoved Mover, which is Being Itself. The principle of conservation of energy is just an abstraction about the material universe, not any sort of being or thing itself - and certainly not Pure Actuality, the Being responsible causally for all motion/change.
I capitalize it because I do regard the Unmoved Mover as the Christian God. (That is a step of faith, mind you, but not an assumption, since whether I believe it is the Christian God or not, the Unmoved Mover is one, is simple, is omnipotent, etc. - that much is proved with reason.)
In any case, are you looking for any reason not to respond to the actual argument for the Unmoved Mover? My capitalizing conventions are hardly relevant to the discussion at hand.
Your capitalizing still leaves me wondering whether you are discussing the argument or the assumptions of deity surrounding the argument. I’m happy to discuss the former, but past experience is that where they are not clearly separated, any criticism of the argument tends to be seen as a direct attack on personal beliefs and things quickly go belly up. In this type of discussion it’s important to agree to talk about the merits of the argument as is, devoid of any religious connotations, to avoid frightening the horses.
Could you restate what you mean here? I don’t understand. Are you saying that it is dishonest to say that the Unmoved Mover is the Christian God (or that I said such a thing)? I said that the argument strictly speaking does not claim to establish the existence of God, although from it we establish that Pure Act has many of the qualities of the traditionally understood monotheistic God. Going from the God of philosophical theism to the God of Christianity requires a step of faith based on the resurrection of Christ. I’ve never denied that.
I’ve mostly only seen versions of the argument in tracts, where it is made to sound as though it proves the existence of the Christian God. To me those tracts are trying to pull the wool over peoples’ eyes, it’s more about backsides on pews and running a business than salvation.
Could you clarify how anyone is leaving the wrong assumption uncorrected? In this topic, Linus, Linux, and I have pointed out empther’s error in understanding, specifically because his idea that the argument relies on the impossibility of the temporal regress could lead to his making a less powerful argument. I think Catholics need education in the force of Aquinas’s Five Ways as much as atheists.
I wasn’t making personal comments, it never occurred to me, I was commenting on those tracts which I’ve seen across many denominations.

PS Sorry ran out of time to respond to other posts today.
 
No it isn’t unless you’re saying that the argument makes a testable prediction, in which case let’s hear it. Otherwise, if it doesn’t make any such predictions, then it cannot be falsified by empirical evidence.

That’s not a debating point, it’s a straight fact.

No it doesn’t apply since in science the arbiter is evidence.

You didn’t tackle my argument there, you just implied I’m uneducated, so I will also make a reading suggestion for you :): catholic.com/blog/matt-fradd/responding-to-the-ad-hominem-fallacy
I didn’t imply anything. I said you didn’t understand philosophy because you either have not devoted enough time to the subject or you are incapable of understanding it. That is clear from your mode of argument. How is that ad hominem ? And as far as that goes, you have no room to hurle that pejorative. Your own house is faced in glass.

Well, it is pretty clear for all to see that you do no wish to seriously engage. You might just as well post a plackard saying, “…Science is the only means to know the truth about anything.” That is why I asked you about the Bible. Clearly scientism rejects anything about the truth of the Bible. That you seem to accept it indicates your prejudice in rejecting Philosophical truth. So how can you accept Biblical truth if you reject Philosophical truth? What about common sense truth? There is nothing so consistent about your position as its inconsistencey.

Linus2nd
 
Your capitalizing still leaves me wondering whether you are discussing the argument or the assumptions of deity surrounding the argument. I’m happy to discuss the former, but past experience is that where they are not clearly separated, any criticism of the argument tends to be seen as a direct attack on personal beliefs and things quickly go belly up. In this type of discussion it’s important to agree to talk about the merits of the argument as is, devoid of any religious connotations, to avoid frightening the horses.
It seems to me that if the God of religion is precisely and definitionally the same as the “Unmoved Mover” demonstrated by the Five Ways, then it is senseless to insist that religious connotations be avoided.

If the aspirations of a religion are to fully understand and appropriately acknowledge the Reality behind creation and existence itself, then religious connotations are unavoidable.

It also seems to me that the real fear has more to do with frightening jackasses and stubborn mules than with spooking any animal with an ounce of horse sense, but charity prevents me from saying it.
 
This thread demonstrates how emotions get in the way of thinking.

Eighteen year old Theresa explains it:
… That’s not what I said. HAL didn’t “want” anything. He didn’t “choose“. I shook my head.
… “It’s their fault if they don’t get it” I said to Nancy. “Everything has been explained. Nothing is understood.”
… People didn’t understand because they didn’t get what they wanted, an intelligent alien that could communicate and negotiate with them. They got me after I survived an assassination attempt by my own President. No wonder they didn’t get it! They were afraid.
__ *Empress Theresa *
 
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