On the decline in the US?

[Addai]

I have heard that some ECs are in serious decline.

example

byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/291023/1/Falling%20Byzantine%20Catholic%20sta

What do you think is the future of Eastern Catholicism in the US as a whole, and your Church in particular? It seems to me that some Churches are growing (The Maronites and Chaldeans for example).

 

[Madaglan]

I have heard that some ECs are in serious decline.

example

byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/291023/1/Falling%20Byzantine%20Catholic%20sta

What do you think is the future of Eastern Catholicism in the US as a whole, and your Church in particular? It seems to me that some Churches are growing (The Maronites and Chaldeans for example).

If the Eastern Catholic Churches want to grow, they will have to engage in missionary efforts (e.g. build mission communities). I think it would be great if the much larger Latin Catholic Church in America were more public about the Eastern Catholics–inquiring Protestants might check them out and find them a good fit.

I think, with people moving away from traditional clusters of Eastern Catholics to areas of little Eastern Catholic presence, there will be a certain assimilation of Eastern Catholics into Latin Catholic churches.

 

[malphono]

…
What do you think is the future of Eastern Catholicism in the US as a whole, and your Church in particular? It seems to me that some Churches are growing (The Maronites and Chaldeans for example).

I hesitate to make a projection on the “future of Eastern Catholicism in the US” but I will make an observation:

One reason that the Chaldeans are growing in the US (and in other countries outside the Patriarchal Territory) is the very real fact of persecution in the “old country” and that is very disturbing.

The Syriacs and Maronites are in a similar situation, although neither (except for the Syriacs in Iraq) is exactly subject to persecution. For those two, I’d prefer to call it marginalization which, when one comes right down to it, is almost as bad. One could probably say something similar about the Melkites as well.

The same persecution or marginalization, as the case may be, equally affects the Syriac Orthodox, the ACoE, the Coptic Orthodox and, at least to an extent, the Armenians (both Apostolic and Catholic).

 

[Addai]

I hesitate to make a projection on the “future of Eastern Catholicism in the US” but I will make an observation:

One reason that the Chaldeans are growing in the US (and in other countries outside the Patriarchal Territory) is the very real fact of persecution in the “old country” and that is very disturbing.

The Syriacs and Maronites are in a similar situation, although neither (except for the Syriacs in Iraq) is exactly subject to persecution. For those two, I’d prefer to call it marginalization which, when one comes right down to it, is almost as bad. One could probably say something similar about the Melkites as well.

The same persecution or marginalization, as the case may be, equally affects the Syriac Orthodox, the ACoE, the Coptic Orthodox and, at least to an extent, the Armenians (both Apostolic and Catholic).

Well in the Coptic Orthodox case they have three big things in their favor besides the enormous transfer growth of people fleeing Egypt…

1. They have a high birth rate.
2. Egyptians for the most part, refuse to leave the Church of their birth. When they begin a romantic courtship with a person outside the Church (Often a Protestant or Roman Catholic). The non-Coptic person usually ends up converting and becoming Coptic Orthodox upon marriage.
3. Since the early 90s the Coptic Church has embraced the idea of Evangelism outside its territories.

examples

evangelismcopticorthodox.org/home.html

suscopts.org/evangelism/

 

[osmond]

95% of the members of the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic church I sometimes attend are disaffected Roman Catholics. Some left when an EF Mass began locally. Any growth has been through attracting other disaffected Roman Catholics.

I think in order to thrive in the long term we need to get a great deal better about evangelization. That’s not something that is talked about much. If people show-up they are warmly welcomed but there is almost a quiet snobbery when it comes to evangelizing.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I have heard that some ECs are in serious decline.

example

byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/291023/1/Falling%20Byzantine%20Catholic%20sta

What do you think is the future of Eastern Catholicism in the US as a whole, and your Church in particular? It seems to me that some Churches are growing (The Maronites and Chaldeans for example).

First and FOREMOST - take what you read on ByzCathy with a grain of salt. Some days, grab the whole salt shaker. That thread itself is fairly sound inasmuch as no one got out too much polemics… But the 900 pound papal Gorilla in the room no one will talk about? The one holding a copy of Humanae Vitae.

Worth talking about? Fertility differentials among Eastern Catholics and the wider population.

You already get that…

Well in the Coptic Orthodox case they have three big things in their favor besides the enormous transfer growth of people fleeing Egypt…

1. They have a high birth rate…

If the Eastern Catholic Churches want to grow, they will have to engage in missionary efforts (e.g. build mission communities). I think it would be great if the much larger Latin Catholic Church in America were more public about the Eastern Catholics–inquiring Protestants might check them out and find them a good fit.

Maybe… But it really isn’t the job or incumbant upon “The Latins” to do our PR work for us. Numerically bigger, their plate is full as it is. We aren’t even on the radar for most of them, and I honestly would not expect them to train their priests, deacons, catechists and laity at large to be familiar enough with us to “send some our way” as needed. Frankly, I meet enough folks who went to Catholic School as kids or described their upbringing as “very Catholic” who can’t name all seven sacraments when pressed. “The Lats” have bigger fish to fry.

I think, with people moving away from traditional clusters of Eastern Catholics to areas of little Eastern Catholic presence, there will be a certain assimilation of Eastern Catholics into Latin Catholic churches.

Inter-marriage also has an effect. My French-Canadian mum was no more interested in becoming a Hungarian than my Hungarian Grandma’s husband was. This happens in Orthodox-Catholic marriages as well… I went to school with four guys in high school with Greek surnames who were RCs… Mom was not Greek, the RCs had schools…

 

[Addai]

First and FOREMOST - take what you read on ByzCathy with a grain of salt. Some days, grab the whole salt shaker. That thread itself is fairly sound inasmuch as no one got out too much polemics… But the 900 pound papal Gorilla in the room no one will talk about? The one holding a copy of Humanae Vitae.

Worth talking about? Fertility differentials among Eastern Catholics and the wider population.

You already get that…

You made me laugh with the salt shaker remark. But really from what I can tell the folks over there are just like the folks on this board except they are more focused on being Byzantine. They are lots of knowedgeable folks and good people with a few saber rattlers thrown in.

The Human Vitae thing was in my mind. Its interesting that my current Church which is pretty tolerant and accepting of BC within a few boundaries seems to have a higher Birth rate then those who have an official stand against it (other then NFP). It looks like social/cultural conditioning or indoctrination is a powerful force indeed!

 

[Ungcsertez]

If the Eastern Catholic Churches want to grow, they will have to engage in missionary efforts (e.g. build mission communities). I think it would be great if the much larger Latin Catholic Church in America were more public about the Eastern Catholics–inquiring Protestants might check them out and find them a good fit.

I think, with people moving away from traditional clusters of Eastern Catholics to areas of little Eastern Catholic presence, there will be a certain assimilation of Eastern Catholics into Latin Catholic churches.

Returning to true Eastern and Oriental-Eastern liturgical and Church practices, such as restoring the rank of married Presbyters, would be a start.

U-C

 

[Addai]

If the Eastern Catholic Churches want to grow, they will have to engage in missionary efforts (e.g. build mission communities). I think it would be great if the much larger Latin Catholic Church in America were more public about the Eastern Catholics–inquiring Protestants might check them out and find them a good fit.

What I’ve seen of this, it tends to be an individual person leading it (like a Protestant convert to Catholicism who ends up going East brings some of his evanglistic ways with him when it comes to getting out the word about his parish).

I’m not aware of any national iniative comparitive to the Antiochians or the Coptic iniatives I mentioned previously.

This did make me wonder though… is this because of Canonical reasons (basically intruding on the Latin jurisidction).

 

[mardukm]

This did make me wonder though… is this because of Canonical reasons (basically intruding on the Latin jurisidction).

There is no canonical reason why a person from one sui juris Church cannot transfer to another sui juris Church. There is a moral imperative, however - initiated by the papacy in effect for several decades now - for Eastern and Orientals NOT to transfer to the Latin Church. Local Latin ordinaries on the whole seem neutral about the issue at best (though there is resistance on the singular issue of married priests), Easterns and Orientals needing to take the initiative to request provisions for their communities in a general Latin population.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Madaglan]

Maybe… But it really isn’t the job or incumbant upon “The Latins” to do our PR work for us. Numerically bigger, their plate is full as it is. We aren’t even on the radar for most of them, and I honestly would not expect them to train their priests, deacons, catechists and laity at large to be familiar enough with us to “send some our way” as needed. Frankly, I meet enough folks who went to Catholic School as kids or described their upbringing as “very Catholic” who can’t name all seven sacraments when pressed. “The Lats” have bigger fish to fry.

Inter-marriage also has an effect. My French-Canadian mum was no more interested in becoming a Hungarian than my Hungarian Grandma’s husband was. This happens in Orthodox-Catholic marriages as well… I went to school with four guys in high school with Greek surnames who were RCs… Mom was not Greek, the RCs had schools…

I find it difficult to believe that folks who went to Catholic school cannot name the seven sacraments. There always will be a few, granted.

There is a need for better catechesis in the Latin Church (to its credit, it’s working on it). All I’m suggesting is that Latin Catholics at least be made aware of the Eastern Catholics and who they are in the Catholic communion. This is being done in some places (e.g. at the university I attended, the Ruthenians served Divine Liturgy on campus once every few months, for Latin Catholics to have a knowledge and appreciation of other legitimate rites of the Catholic Church).

I have several Catholic friends who, upon learning of Eastern Catholicism and becoming familiar with it, made a change of *sui iurus *Church. I don’t know of any Protestants–but who knows. Interestingly, I was reading the other day that when a group of Hungarian Protestants converted to Catholicism, they chose the Byzantine rite rather than the Latin rite.

Yes, inter-marriage definitely has an effect as well, whether it be Catholic-Orthodox/Catholic-Protestant/EC-LC.

 

[Madaglan]

I find it difficult to believe that folks who went to Catholic school cannot name the seven sacraments. There always will be a few, granted.

There is a need for better catechesis in the Latin Church (to its credit, it’s working on it). All I’m suggesting is that Latin Catholics at least be made aware of the Eastern Catholics and who they are in the Catholic communion. This is being done in some places (e.g. at the university I attended, the Ruthenians served Divine Liturgy on campus once every few months, for Latin Catholics to have a knowledge and appreciation of other legitimate rites of the Catholic Church).

I have several Catholic friends who, upon learning of Eastern Catholicism and becoming familiar with it, made a change of *sui iurus *Church. I don’t know of any Protestants–but who knows. Interestingly, I was reading the other day that when a group of Hungarian Protestants converted to Catholicism, they chose the Byzantine rite rather than the Latin rite.

Yes, inter-marriage definitely has an effect as well, whether it be Catholic-Orthodox/Catholic-Protestant/EC-LC.

Clarification: I don’t personally know off-hand any Protestants who converted into an Eastern Catholic Church. I do know, however, several Protestants who first converted into the Latin Church but later changed to another sui iurus Church.

 

[ziapueblo]

Clarification: I don’t personally know off-hand any Protestants who converted into an Eastern Catholic Church. I do know, however, several Protestants who first converted into the Latin Church but later changed to another sui iurus Church.

I am a Latin Rite Catholic and once every couple of months I attend the Divine Liturgy at a Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church. I attend for many reasons. Mainly because I want to experience the fulness of our Catholic faith and I feel one way this can be done is by attending the Divine Liturgy at our local Eastern Catholic parish.

Why do you think Protestant converts you know changed to another sui iurus?

 

[wynd]

Clarification: I don’t personally know off-hand any Protestants who converted into an Eastern Catholic Church. I do know, however, several Protestants who first converted into the Latin Church but later changed to another sui iurus Church.

I knew one who used to post here. So they do exist.

 

[Aramis]

Clarification: I don’t personally know off-hand any Protestants who converted into an Eastern Catholic Church. I do know, however, several Protestants who first converted into the Latin Church but later changed to another sui iurus Church.

I do. There are several at St. Nicholas. One couple is formerly methodist.

 

[theweeper]

i’m reposting this from another forum since it seems to be more appropriate here
i am a latin catholic and recently i visited a eastern catholic church…there were no easterns there. it was full of protestant converts. what’s up with that? it seems that eastern catholicism (or some of those other societies previously mentioned) is the way to go for very conservative converts. i have to admit i have a liking for both for i see myself as a kind of extreme conservative. but if the mass or the liturgy or whatever you call it is real and valid (as our Church says it is) then you cannot lessen the sublime which is found therein. Brothers we share in One Bread, this is the most sublime of all. lets not forget that.
at any rate, it seems common to see anti-latinism in the eastern catholics i’ve met or even read on this forum. is that something others have notice or is it just me?

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I find it difficult to believe that folks who went to Catholic school cannot name the seven sacraments.

You and me both, brother… you and me both.

There is a need for better catechesis in the Latin Church (to its credit, it’s working on it). All I’m suggesting is that Latin Catholics at least be made aware of the Eastern Catholics and who they are in the Catholic communion. This is being done in some places (e.g. at the university I attended, the Ruthenians served Divine Liturgy on campus once every few months, for Latin Catholics to have a knowledge and appreciation of other legitimate rites of the Catholic Church).

And where this can happen, I frequently see it happening. The “Latins invade” our parish as the entire student population of the local Latin seminary comes over at least three times annually to our parish… At the rate they have grown in the last 10 years, this means that the church is packed to capacity when that happens. It has an effect.

I have several Catholic friends who, upon learning of Eastern Catholicism and becoming familiar with it, made a change of *sui iurus *Church. I don’t know of any Protestants–but who knows. Interestingly, I was reading the other day that when a group of Hungarian Protestants converted to Catholicism, they chose the Byzantine rite rather than the Latin rite.

I have oft heard this (and don’t dispute it!)… But I am going to now enlist you on the quest I have been on for over a decade to help me find out some details about this event! I only EVER hear mention made of the fact it happened… but no more details than that.

If you can find out more, please share!

FWIW, the deacon at my parish was a Methodist who converted to the Catholic faith in our church… and several of the seminarians and priests I have known did so as well. Of course, we definately do not have enough of that yet!

FWIW (too) I have mentioned in passing that it might not be a bad idea for our bishop and vocations directors to start working with the Coming Home Network a bit… 1000s of married Protestant clergy (many of whom studied and were attracted to/ torn between becoming Orthodox v. Catholic) have become Catholic over the years. To pick up a dozen or so of them might prove a boon. In a real way, they already come prepared to deal with the issues of marriage and family life in the context of a pastorate.

2¢ for today!

 

[Allyson]

i’m reposting this from another forum since it seems to be more appropriate here
i am a latin catholic and recently i visited a eastern catholic church…there were no easterns there. it was full of protestant converts. what’s up with that? it seems that eastern catholicism (or some of those other societies previously mentioned) is the way to go for very conservative converts. i have to admit i have a liking for both for i see myself as a kind of extreme conservative. but if the mass or the liturgy or whatever you call it is real and valid (as our Church says it is) then you cannot lessen the sublime which is found therein. Brothers we share in One Bread, this is the most sublime of all. lets not forget that.
at any rate, it seems common to see anti-latinism in the eastern catholics i’ve met or even read on this forum. is that something others have notice or is it just me?

I have only attended EC Churches in the Pittsburgh, PA/Weirton, WV and Scranton, PA areas, and here you do not find anti-Latin attitudes. There are many old families and some people like me who came from the Latin Rite. The older people of the old families live that amalgam of spiritualities, in fact there was a time that I have been told of, that in the Ruthenian Rite (and probably others) that many traditions (like a curtain behind the icon and using hot water for communion) were dropped because there were seen as too Orthodox.

Yes, there is a move to reclaim older traditions in the Church to which I now belong. I think that the zeal you may see on the part of people in RL or on the forum comes from their desire to see the ECC’s reclaim their own traditions, which were sometimes lost because of Latinization. As for those who convert to or change sui iuris church to the EC, they usually do so because they want to live according to the particular Eastern traditions of a given EC Church (I speak broadly). I say usually, because there are some cases where people really are trying to “escape” the NO (I do not advocate this, in the least), and some of these persons appreciate the Eastern traditions more than others.

I do think that it is unfair to say that people who genuinely change sui iuris church, have an anti-Latin attitude; if what you mean is that they object to the Latin Church in any way. It would be odd for someone to claim communion with the Latin Church, but then dis it, and visa versa. It is true to say that some have an anti-Latinization attitude, but this is not the same as an anti-Latin attitude. I might add that no one is trying to rip the rosaries out of the hands of old ladies. To say that Latinizations should be removed or played down, is not to advocate depriving those who have always known these practices.

Perhaps you could elaborate if I have miss read you.

Yes, I agree that more conservative people may be attracted to the East, but the reasons to join are more complex than that. I know of a few conservative Latin parishes, and I think that if your spirituality is truly Latin, then that is the way you should go as a convert. I knew only a couple of Protestants who directly converted to an EC, among the many Eastern Catholics I have met, and both had equal access to the variety of rites. Each one choose the Church with the Rite, which “spoke” best to them. Neither, is, as you say, anti-Latin.

God Bless,
Rosemary

 

[malphono]

… at any rate, it seems common to see anti-latinism in the eastern catholics i’ve met or even read on this forum. is that something others have notice or is it just me?

Maybe it’s just your interpretation. In general, members of the Oriental and Eastern CCs (including those on this forum) are not particularly “anti-Latin.” At the same time we are, as a rule, “anti-Latinization” which is a whole different thing.

 

[Kielbasi]

What do you think is the future of Eastern Catholicism in the US as a whole, and your Church in particular? It seems to me that some Churches are growing (The Maronites and Chaldeans for example).

Maronites and Chaldeans originate in countries that are still experiencing immigration to the United States. They are just “behind the curve”.

The mathematics would seem to indicate continued decline in numbers for Eastern Catholics. The groups are very small in relation to the entire Catholic Church, and intermarriage between Latins and Eastern Catholics seems to be more likely than not.

Since the EC’s are so small, they have relatively few churches. The chance of a Latin-Eastern couple living near one is relatively small. Some entire states have exactly zero EC churches.

The whole phenomena is likely to continue to accelerate as Americans become more affluent and less attached to the insular EC (and other ethnic) communities that were a lot more prevalent a hundred years ago.