On the Fence

[mardukm]

Hello all.

I am trying to understand the move from Latin Catholicism to Eastern Orthodoxy.

In the process, what goes through your mind?

1. I retain the good things that are Latin, but appreciate the Eastern understanding more.
2. I have reinterpreted my understanding of Latin theology in light of what Eastern Orthodoxy teaches about Latin Catholicism.
3. I never appreciated Latin theology that much to begin with, and found Eastern theology more satisfying.

If people here think this topic is too personal, please e-mail the moderator to delete it. Thank you.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[jimmy]

Just to clarify, I am not necessarily on the fence between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I am Maronite Catholic but I do tend to agree with the Orthodox on a lot of things. Originally when I started learning of my Catholic faith in the Latin tradition I was very satisfied with western thinking and I loved it. Now it doesn’t satisfy me anymore because over the last few years I have gained an eastern perspective on things. That said, I do appreciate some modern Latin theologians like Popes Benedict and John Paul II.

 

[Nicholas82]

Just to clarify, I am not necessarily on the fence between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I am Maronite Catholic but I do tend to agree with the Orthodox on a lot of things. Originally when I started learning of my Catholic faith in the Latin tradition I was very satisfied with western thinking and I loved it. Now it doesn’t satisfy me anymore because over the last few years I have gained an eastern perspective on things. That said, I do appreciate some modern Latin theologians like Popes Benedict and John Paul II.

Personally, I have a great amount of respect for many Roman Catholics, including the current Pope. However, even as a Roman Catholic I felt a draw toward Eastern spirituality, theology and praxis. For a while I convinced myself that I could have sort of a “best of both worlds” as a Byzantine Catholic… but as time went on I began to feel like I was being intellectually dishonest, and a certain dishonesty spiritually… anyway, I attended an Orthodox Church for the first time, and it was both awesome(literally AWE-some) and yet I felt at home, and knew it was where God wanted me to be. I harbor no ill-will or prejudice toward Catholics- my whole family is Roman Catholic and I love them all very much! But, I do feel at peace with and have no reservations about my decision. Now comes the hard part- the rest of my life and working out my salvation. My patron saint is Saint Patrick, I have a fondness for many Western Saints, and I am an Orthodox Christian. I am not terribly concerned with Roman Catholic theology and praxis in opposition to Orthodoxy, I’ve gone over it all and am just glad to be home. That’s about as succinct as I can be, although I could elaborate considerably, I’m sure.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Just to clarify, I am not necessarily on the fence between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I am Maronite Catholic but I do tend to agree with the Orthodox on a lot of things. Originally when I started learning of my Catholic faith in the Latin tradition I was very satisfied with western thinking and I loved it. Now it doesn’t satisfy me anymore because over the last few years I have gained an eastern perspective on things. That said, I do appreciate some modern Latin theologians like Popes Benedict and John Paul II.

I don’t mean to sound polemical or pedantic, but “an eastern perspective” is so delicously vague, it leaves little room for much solid meaning. Even the idea of “Latin theologians” anymore in the context of a church that stretches from Dublin to Seoul, with theologians from Trondheim to Johannesburg, and unique and interesting voices from Rio de Jinero to Beijing leaves one wondering just how antiquated and attached to ideas of the “Imperium” with the two halves of a long-gone empire.

Just the other day I was talking with a patristics scholar of a modern Roman mendicant order about WHERE someone like modern Catholic theologian Dr. Scott Hahn fits into the equation. He is neither a Thomist nor a classic “Latin” theologian… Where does he fit?

I wish you well in your continued experience and desire to formulate a more “authentic” and pristine “Eastern” expression… But far from being a recalcitrant “Latiniak” as I am often deigrated as, I simply see a lot of these designations as being antiquated and out of the past.

 

[jimmy]

I don’t mean to sound polemical or pedantic, but “an eastern perspective” is so delicously vague, it leaves little room for much solid meaning. Even the idea of “Latin theologians” anymore in the context of a church that stretches from Dublin to Seoul, with theologians from Trondheim to Johannesburg, and unique and interesting voices from Rio de Jinero to Beijing leaves one wondering just how antiquated and attached to ideas of the “Imperium” with the two halves of a long-gone empire.

Just the other day I was talking with a patristics scholar of a modern Roman mendicant order about WHERE someone like modern Catholic theologian Dr. Scott Hahn fits into the equation. He is neither a Thomist nor a classic “Latin” theologian… Where does he fit?

I wish you well in your continued experience and desire to formulate a more “authentic” and pristine “Eastern” expression… But far from being a recalcitrant “Latiniak” as I am often deigrated as, I simply see a lot of these designations as being antiquated and out of the past.

So now the concepts of a Maronite Catholic and a Greek Catholic are things of the past as well I am guessing? They are just liturgical rites which are subject to the pope?

 

[mardukm]

Dear brothers ASimpleSinner,and Jimmy,
"ASimpleSinner:

I don’t mean to sound polemical or pedantic, but “an eastern perspective” is so delicously vague, it leaves little room for much solid meaning

So now the concepts of a Maronite Catholic and a Greek Catholic are things of the past as well I am guessing? They are just liturgical rites which are subject to the pope?

May I offer my perspective? When I first came onto these boards, I was very uncomfortable calling myself “Eastern Catholic” because, having translated from Coptic Orthodoxy, I came here with a distinctly Oriental/Coptic understanding and identity and not Eastern/Byzantine.

I think perhaps part of the issue is that Catholics (even among Eastern and Oriental Catholics) DON’T NORMALLY distinguish between the Oriental and Eastern Traditions.

I would never write what brother ASimpleSinner wrote, simply because I have a deep recognition of the distinctions.

Truth to tell, when I first came on these boards, I felt a lot of “Eastern” Catholics whose origins were distinctly Oriental seemed to me to be overly Hellenized. I hope my presence here has helped my Oriental Catholic brethren become more aware of their own unique identity distinct from our Byzantine brethren. At the same time, we should also be understanding if it is difficult for some to understand that there is a distinction between the Eastern and Oriental Traditions, because, truth to tell, that line is, I feel, unjustifiably blurred within Catholicism in the first place, even among the Eastern and Oriental Catholics themselves.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Everyman]

Since I posted the misonomered “How to Move to the Eastern Rite” thread, it has been recommended that I participate on here.

I suppose I indentify myself best with the first option: I* retain the good things that are Latin, but appreciate the Eastern understanding more.*

I will write about all the whys and such as soon as I have more time.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

So now the concepts of a Maronite Catholic and a Greek Catholic are things of the past as well I am guessing? They are just liturgical rites which are subject to the pope?

I suppose it is easier to slay the straw-man in a false dichotomy than to answer with well considered response the points I offer. If that is the thinking that will be pervasive in this thread, I am not interested in participating.

I offered some thought-out concerns and questions. The response seems flippant.

 

[Peter_J]

Since I posted the misonomered “How to Move to the Eastern Rite” thread, it has been recommended that I participate on here.

I suppose I indentify myself best with the first option: I* retain the good things that are Latin, but appreciate the Eastern understanding more.*

I will write about all the whys and such as soon as I have more time.

Hi Everyman,

Are you in the process of converting to Eastern Orthodoxy? (If so, you might want to put that in your profile, if only to prevent people like me from asking you, which must get tiresome .)

 

[jimmy]

I suppose it is easier to slay the straw-man in a false dichotomy than to answer with well considered response the points I offer. If that is the thinking that will be pervasive in this thread, I am not interested in participating.

I offered some thought-out concerns and questions. The response seems flippant.

You said an eastern theology is outdated. That indicates that the eastern churches are outdated.

 

[Peter_J]

You said an eastern theology is outdated.

I don’t believe that’s correct. He said “I simply see a lot of these designations as being antiquated and out of the past” not that eastern theology is.

 

[Aydan]

well I’m not considering orthodoxy but considering possibly going from the Western church to the Eastern Church Maronite tradition. The main reason is that since I’ve been and to learn Turkish as a second language I feel the Roman rite is somewhat restrictive because people don’t understand why praying in Turkish is important and There are several other things that have been making me feel as though I’m been restricted by the Roman rite to the point where I feel like I’m having to choose between my faith and my admiration for the Turkish culture and even all of the Turkish Saints that I know of are in the Eastern Church. I chose Maronite because it’s the only Eastern Church in my city that is in communion with the pope. So I have to say I am most definitely on the fence but now that I’ve found some Turkish Saints are problem will not switch because I really love the people at my parish they had done so much to bring me up in the faith and bring me back to the church that I’m willing to find ways around the restrictions that I feel. Funding Turkish Saints has really helped solve the problem of feeling restricted so I’m prety happy now.

 

[Hesychios]

well I’m not considering orthodoxy but considering possibly going from the Western church to the Eastern Church Maronite tradition. The main reason is that since I’ve been and to learn Turkish as a second language …

Just curious, what system or method did you employ to learn Turkish?

Classwork, computer program, audio?..all of these?

I am studying Chinese, and have toggled between Pimsleur and Rosetta Stone, but I am thinking of just going for personal instruction.

Anyway, I admire your interest and involvement in the Turkish culture. One never can tell how this will work in God’s overall plan.

Keep it up.

As for the Maronites, that’s great. I would couple this with a strong program of studying the overall Syriac and East Syrian spirituality, the Fathers and the prayers and hymns. There are a few excellent Maronite participants on this board who can make reading recommendations to you.

As you travel look out for Syriac Catholic and Syro-Malankar parishes to participate in, the former are not numerous in North America. The latter are culturally from Kerala India but their spirituality has close ties to the Maronite.

May God be with you always,
Michael

 

[Aydan]

Thanks Michael
I have used Pimsleur but I have been very unhappy with it because is nothing more than Travelers phrases and I want to learn the language. I didn’t buy any of the other either because my friend told me to stay away from them. I’ve used an online course out of Ankara University it has taught me how to write but not speak Turkish I have been disappointed with that as well but as of right now there are no Turkish classes in my area but I’m happy to say there our local Turkish community is supposed to be offering them soon. I would not recommend using any of those programs like Pimsleur and Rosetta Stone my buddy tried Rosetta Stone for learning Turkish he bought the online subscription of it and although he said it was good for some things there’s no way you could learn Turkish fluently like that. I got interested in Turkish after my buddy went to Turkey to learn to speak Turkish and came back and got me hooked on it! So now I want to learn! Unfortunately because of disability traveling to Turkey or anywhere else is out of the question since there is no wheelchair access. But I think you money would be better spent on courses in your area or if there aren’t any definitely go for private instruction instead. I never tried Rosetta Stone myself because it didn’t work for my friend and it is very expensive. The online course I’m taking is a much better value but again if there are courses in the area or you can find private tutoring go for that above anything else aside from actually traveling to China to learn the language. As for the Maronite churchI think I’m just going to stay in the Roman Church my parish doesn’t mind that I speak Turkish at mass and I had the Roman rite translated into Turkish or at least the congressional response is part of it anyway so I think I’m going to stay because the Maronite church is not really Turkish and I definitely don’t want to go outside the Catholic Church I want to make sure I stay in communion with the church at all times. I may go visit a Maronite church every once in awhile but I’m pretty much staying put I love my parish and don’t really want to leave and now that I know they don’t mind me speaking Turkish problem solved. Best of luck with your Chinese studies and peace of Christ be with you always!
Aydan

Just curious, what system or method did you employ to learn Turkish?

Classwork, computer program, audio?..all of these?

I am studying Chinese, and have toggled between Pimsleur and Rosetta Stone, but I am thinking of just going for personal instruction.

Anyway, I admire your interest and involvement in the Turkish culture. One never can tell how this will work in God’s overall plan.

Keep it up.

As for the Maronites, that’s great. I would couple this with a strong program of studying the overall Syriac and East Syrian spirituality, the Fathers and the prayers and hymns. There are a few excellent Maronite participants on this board who can make reading recommendations to you.

As you travel look out for Syriac Catholic and Syro-Malankar parishes to participate in, the former are not numerous in North America. The latter are culturally from Kerala India but their spirituality has close ties to the Maronite.

May God be with you always,
Michael

 

[Hesychios]

Hello Aydan,

…As for the Maronite churchI think I’m just going to stay in the Roman Church my parish doesn’t mind that I speak Turkish at mass and I had the Roman rite translated into Turkish or at least the congressional response is part of it anyway so I think I’m going to stay because the Maronite church is not really Turkish and I definitely don’t want to go outside the Catholic Church I want to make sure I stay in communion with the church at all times. I may go visit a Maronite church every once in awhile but I’m pretty much staying put I love my parish and don’t really want to leave and now that I know they don’t mind me speaking Turkish problem solved. Best of luck with your Chinese studies and peace of Christ be with you always!
Aydan

Thanks.

Just to make it perfectly clear to you and anyone else who may read this:

The only churches I recommended to you above are fully Catholic according to the definition accepted here. That is, they are under the full weight of the authority of the Pope. A simple cursory reading of the CCEO, promulgated in 1990AD by His Holiness Pope John Paul II of blessed memory will make that clear.

Canon 43

The bishop of the Church of Rome, in whom resides the office

given in special way by the Lord to Peter, first of the

Apostles and to be transmitted to his successors, is head of the

college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ and Pastor of the entire

Church on earth; therefore, in virtue of his office (munus) **he

enjoys supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in

the Church which he can always freely exercise** .

I still think it would be worthwhile for you to become familiar with the Maronites. It is very likely to be a much more intimate worship setting and a rewarding expansion of your spirituality. It might help you with insights into the Middle Eastern frame of thought in a thoroughly Catholic Christian context. Please do not dismiss this opportunity for spiritual growth too quickly.

For more information on the eastern churches please see the CNEWA website.

God bless you,
Michael

 

[LakaYaRabb]

One of my favorites from Melkite Patriarch His Beatitude Gregory III…

SYNODUS EPISCOPORUM
BULLETIN
of the Commission for information of the
X ORDINARY GENERAL ASSEMBLY
OF THE SYNOD OF BISHOPS
30 September-27 October 2001

H.B. Grégoire III LAHAM, B.S., Patriarch of Antioch for the Greek-Melchites, Syria

It is incorrect to include the Patriarchal Synod under the title of Episcopal Conferences. It is a completely distinct organism. The Patriarchal Synod is the supreme instance of the Eastern Church. It can legislate, elect bishops and Patriarchs, cut off those who differ.

In No. 75, a “particular honor” given to Patriarchs is mentioned. I would like to mention that this diminishes the traditional role of the Patriarch, as well as speaking about the honor and privileges of the Patriarchs in ecclesiastical documents.

It is not a question of honor, of privileges, of concessions. The patriarchal institution is a specific entity unique in Eastern ecclesiology.

With all respect due to the Petrine ministry, the Patriarchal ministry is equal to it, “servatis servandis”, in Eastern ecclesiology.

Until this is taken into consideration by the Roman ecclesiology, no progress will be made in ecumenical dialogue.

Furthermore, the Patriarchal ministry is not a Roman creation, it is not the fruit of privileges, conceded or granted by Rome.

Such a concept can but ruin any possible understanding with Orthodoxy.

**We claim this also for our Patriarchal Melkite Church and for all our Eastern Catholic Churches.
**
We have waited too long to apply the decrees of Vatican Council II and the Encyclicals and letters by the Popes, and notably by Pope John Paul II.

Because of this the good will of the Church of Rome loses credibility regarding ecumenical dialogue.

We can see the opposite occurring: the CCEO has ratified uses absolutely contrary to Eastern tradition and ecclesiology!

[00119-02.03] [in096] [Original text: French]

vatican.va/news_services/press/sinodo/documents/bollettino_20_x-ordinaria-2001/02_inglese/b10_02.html

 

[Aydan]

thank you for the information I’m always looking to learn more about the Eastern church and I would never completely close off any opportunity to grow in my faith. I have no problem going to the Maronite church once in awhile but I’m just saying I’m not going to leave my parish and join the Maronite church permanently that’s all. You’re welcome for the help glad to do it.

Hello Aydan,
Thanks.

Just to make it perfectly clear to you and anyone else who may read this:

The only churches I recommended to you above are fully Catholic according to the definition accepted here. That is, they are under the full weight of the authority of the Pope. A simple cursory reading of the CCEO, promulgated in 1990AD by His Holiness Pope John Paul II of blessed memory will make that clear.
I still think it would be worthwhile for you to become familiar with the Maronites. It is very likely to be a much more intimate worship setting and a rewarding expansion of your spirituality. It might help you with insights into the Middle Eastern frame of thought in a thoroughly Catholic Christian context. Please do not dismiss this opportunity for spiritual growth too quickly.

For more information on the eastern churches please see the CNEWA website.

God bless you,
Michael

 

[Isa_Almisry]

According to the rules of the game here, shouldn’t this be in “Non-Catholic Religions?” After all “Eastern Orthodox” is specified here, and the powers that be here have specified that this is a “non-Orthodox Religion.” Hence answering the question as formulated would be misleading, if what is sought is an answer about “Eastern Catholicism,” as defined here, i.e. in full submission to the Vatican.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Just to clarify, I am not necessarily on the fence between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I am Maronite Catholic but I do tend to agree with the Orthodox on a lot of things. Originally when I started learning of my Catholic faith in the Latin tradition I was very satisfied with western thinking and I loved it. Now it doesn’t satisfy me anymore because over the last few years I have gained an eastern perspective on things. That said, I do appreciate some modern Latin theologians like Popes Benedict and John Paul II.

I am firmly on the Orthodox sided of the fence, but I appreciate the present and previous popes of Rome too.

 

[Peter_J]

According to the rules of the game here, shouldn’t this be in “Non-Catholic Religions?” After all “Eastern Orthodox” is specified here, and the powers that be here have specified that this is a “non-Orthodox Religion.” Hence answering the question as formulated would be misleading, if what is sought is an answer about “Eastern Catholicism,” as defined here, i.e. in full submission to the Vatican.

I believe you are correct insofar as CAF counts Orthodoxy as a non-Catholic Religion (I assume “non-Catholic” is what you meant). However, on the question of moving this thread to the other forum, you should read this post.