On the Fence

[chrisb]

Grace and Peace,

I don’t like to think that I ‘left’ Catholicism by entering Holy Orthodoxy, in a way I never found Catholicism. It’s gone. What is happening today in the Western Church is reconstruction in the mist of collapse. I am Orthodox because it is all that is left of the Ancient Church.

Ultimately what drove me from Rome was Infallibility and the Papacy.

 

[Aydan]

Those are the things that are keeping me away from the Orthodox church because they don’t believe in the papacy and they don’t believe that the holy spirit guides the pope when he makes moral decisions. I would never go to an Eastern Orthodox Church that is not in communion with the papacy. If I do that in my mind I have in fact left the Catholic Church.

Grace and Peace,

I don’t like to think that I ‘left’ Catholicism by entering Holy Orthodoxy, in a way I never found Catholicism. It’s gone. What is happening today in the Western Church is reconstruction in the mist of collapse. I am Orthodox because it is all that is left of the Ancient Church.

Ultimately what drove me from Rome was Infallibility and the Papacy.

 

[quadphone]

Personally, I have a great amount of respect for many Roman Catholics, including the current Pope. However, even as a Roman Catholic I felt a draw toward Eastern spirituality, theology and praxis. For a while I convinced myself that I could have sort of a “best of both worlds” as a Byzantine Catholic… but as time went on I began to feel like I was being intellectually dishonest, and a certain dishonesty spiritually… anyway, I attended an Orthodox Church for the first time, and it was both awesome(literally AWE-some) and yet I felt at home, and knew it was where God wanted me to be. I harbor no ill-will or prejudice toward Catholics- my whole family is Roman Catholic and I love them all very much! But, I do feel at peace with and have no reservations about my decision. Now comes the hard part- the rest of my life and working out my salvation. My patron saint is Saint Patrick, I have a fondness for many Western Saints, and I am an Orthodox Christian. I am not terribly concerned with Roman Catholic theology and praxis in opposition to Orthodoxy, I’ve gone over it all and am just glad to be home. That’s about as succinct as I can be, although I could elaborate considerably, I’m sure.

I just underwent a transfer of rites and I am now a Byzantine Catholic. After we are done with Divine Liturgy, some Antiochian Orthodox come and use our church for their worship.

I totally know what you mean by being drawn to the East. i became Catholic and was in the Latin Rite for seven years before finally continuously attending an Eastern Church. I do feel at home myself. i read the Orthodox Study Bible and have purchased books from SVS press. God bless you.

 

[Aydan]

I’m still trying to learn about the Eastern churches so do you mind if I ask a couple questions is the Byzantine rite the one that’s used in Turkey? Is the Byzantine church in communion with the pope or not? I really wanted to explore the Byzantine church because they recognize Turkish Saints. That one thing that is appealing to me is that the Eastern churches recognize different cultures. But unfortunately we do not have a Byzantine church in my area all we have is the Maronite church I’m kind of disappointed because I really wanted to go to and Byzantine Mass. How do you change rites anyway I’m really curious about that. Are people from the Roman Church allowed to attend Mass in the Eastern Church?

I just underwent a transfer of rites and I am now a Byzantine Catholic. After we are done with Divine Liturgy, some Antiochian Orthodox come and use our church for their worship.

I totally know what you mean by being drawn to the East. i became Catholic and was in the Latin Rite for seven years before finally continuously attending an Eastern Church. I do feel at home myself. i read the Orthodox Study Bible and have purchased books from SVS press. God bless you.

 

[Peter_J]

After we are done with Divine Liturgy, some Antiochian Orthodox come and use our church for their worship.

I think it’s a shame that kind of church-sharing doesn’t happen more.

 

[Aydan]

I have to agree with you there it wasn’t until I began learning Turkish that I realized just how restrictive the Roman rite can be. As I’ve stated before I often felt like I was having to choose between my new language in my church because some people on the board were objecting to me speaking Turkish at mass or even wearing something small to show my admiration for Turkey to mass. I came away from the whole experience realizing that if you change things up even a little bit people fear scandals and stuff like that because you’re speaking another language. Luckily for me people in my parish don’t mind that I speak Turkish so it’s not a problem but I came pretty close to switching until I discovered that there was no Byzantine church in my area if there was I was going to consider switching. I don’t understand why we don’t have days where we honor the new martyrs of the Turkish yoke in the Western tradition I wish we did. And by the way the thing that I wear symbolize Turkey smaller than a quarter you can’t even see it unless you walk up to me. I just wish the Roman Church was more open to other cultural traditions like the Eastern Church. But the thing that bothers me the most about the Eastern churches is I don’t know which ones recognize the pope and which ones do not because I don’t want to join a church that doesn’t recognize the papacy because I believe in the papacy. And that’s why I’m so afraid to explore Eastern churches I don’t want to get to really enjoy it only to find out it’s not in communion with the pope.

I think it’s a shame that kind of church-sharing doesn’t happen more.

 

[Hesychios]

Those are the things that are keeping me away from the Orthodox church because they don’t believe in the papacy and they don’t believe that the holy spirit guides the pope when he makes moral decisions. I would never go to an Eastern Orthodox Church that is not in communion with the papacy. If I do that in my mind I have in fact left the Catholic Church.

I know how you feel, I really do.

I had the exact same opinion at one time. In fact I was very prejudiced against anything that hinted at Orthodox.

I took twenty years for me to finally even consider visiting an eastern Catholic church under the Pope, let alone an Orthodox one. It was a long process…

 

[Hesychios]

I think it’s a shame that kind of church-sharing doesn’t happen more.

I agree.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I’m still trying to learn about the Eastern churches so do you mind if I ask a couple questions is the Byzantine rite the one that’s used in Turkey? Is the Byzantine church in communion with the pope or not? I really wanted to explore the Byzantine church because they recognize Turkish Saints. That one thing that is appealing to me is that the Eastern churches recognize different cultures. But unfortunately we do not have a Byzantine church in my area all we have is the Maronite church I’m kind of disappointed because I really wanted to go to and Byzantine Mass. How do you change rites anyway I’m really curious about that. Are people from the Roman Church allowed to attend Mass in the Eastern Church?

By Byzantine do you mean “Rumli” or “Bizansli”? Both are in the Turkish Republic, the second only in communion with Rome and I don’t know any of them who use Turkish at all. The first has Turkish Orthodox, there were thousands more, the Karamanli, who, although Turks, were forced in the 20s to flee to Greece because they were Orthodox. Closely related, language-wise, are the Gaugauz in Moldavia, who are Orthodox (in fact one of the most Christian, by percentage, of ethnic groups) and whose language is nearly the same as Turkiye Turkcesi.

If you are asking if Latin rite can attend a Eastern church which has submitted to Rome, yes they can.

 

[Peter_J]

As I’ve stated before I often felt like I was having to choose between my new language in my church because some people on the board were objecting to me speaking Turkish at mass or even wearing something small to show my admiration for Turkey to mass.

You do want to be a little bit careful about accepting things you read on the internet. (Of course I don’t want to generalize; there are some good things on the internet. You know what I mean.)

 

[Aydan]

well I’ve only been learning Turkish for about six months so my knowledge of Turkish history is still quite limited I didn’t even realize there were two different churches there. But most certainly I would choose the one in communion with the pope. Yes that’s what I was asking can someone from Latin rite attend Mass. Thanks for the information very very interesting. I just wish there was a Byzantine church in my area but there isn’t. Any suggestions on how I can find out more or see a Byzantine mass?

By Byzantine do you mean “Rumli” or “Bizansli”? Both are in the Turkish Republic, the second only in communion with Rome and I don’t know any of them who use Turkish at all. The first has Turkish Orthodox, there were thousands more, the Karamanli, who, although Turks, were forced in the 20s to flee to Greece because they were Orthodox. Closely related, language-wise, are the Gaugauz in Moldavia, who are Orthodox (in fact one of the most Christian, by percentage, of ethnic groups) and whose language is nearly the same as Turkiye Turkcesi.

If you are asking if Latin rite can attend a Eastern church which has submitted to Rome, yes they can.

 

[Aydan]

I know exactly what you mean had to learn that the hard way although sometimes it’s a good thing because positive comes out of it because you’re exposed to perceptions and other opinions that you may never have thought of as well.

You do want to be a little bit careful about accepting things you read on the internet. (Of course I don’t want to generalize; there are some good things on the internet. You know what I mean.)

 

[Isa_Almisry]

well I’ve only been learning Turkish for about six months so my knowledge of Turkish history is still quite limited I didn’t even realize there were two different churches there. But most certainly I would choose the one in communion with the pope. Yes that’s what I was asking can someone from Latin rite attend Mass. Thanks for the information very very interesting. I just wish there was a Byzantine church in my area but there isn’t. Any suggestions on how I can find out more or see a Byzantine mass?

Depends on where you are at in the US. The larger cities and East coast are your best bet. Most, I dare say, are not very keen on Turks, though.

Btw, are you are aware that St. Ahmet was not in communion with Rome?

 

[Aydan]

actually I’m in Virginia and we have a 1% Turkish population and I’m hoping to work with refugees in my city pretty soon we have Ahiskas here. Yes I am aware that he was not in communion with Rome but I still find this story very compelling so he’s my Turkish Saint. To me the fact that he wasn’t in communion with Rome is a very minor thing I mean it’s not something I would do myself but still doesn’t take away his bravery or diminish his martyrdom in my view.

Depends on where you are at in the US. The larger cities and East coast are your best bet. Most, I dare say, are not very keen on Turks, though.

Btw, are you are aware that St. Ahmet was not in communion with Rome?

 

[Hesychios]

. I just wish there was a Byzantine church in my area but there isn’t. Any suggestions on how I can find out more or see a Byzantine mass?

It would not be called a Mass.

The internet has some limitations. YouTube is all small snippets. You can search around for a long time and mostly get frustrated by the limitations.

There are a number of stylistic variations within the Byzantine tradition, there is the Greek (or Greece, Asia Minor Crete and Cyprus) and the Melkite Greek in Syria (which uses Arabic extensively in text and music style) and the Slavonic.

Greek Liturgical Music just an example.

Slavonic Lord’s Prayer, my favorite by Kedroff (I used to sing this). Very moving when played on the right equipment. The low tones tend to make the speakers on my computer buzz.

Aside from very small sections on YouTube I can’t find any Divine Liturgy videos at the moment. There are a lot of audio files around though, such as at this page.

An old set of introductory videos here, if your connection can handle them.

 

[Aydan]

I started a new threat and got some great resources. I found a radio station that has live broadcasts and archives yourlinformation is great to I believe it’s the Greek tradition that that particular radio station broadcasts. Thanks for the information

The internet has some limitations. YouTube is all small snippets.

There are a number of stylistic variations within the Byzantine tradition, there is the Greek (or Greece, Asia Minor Crete and Cyprus) and the Melkite Greek in Syria (which uses Arabic extensively in text and music style) and the Slavonic.

Greek Liturgical Music

Slavonic Lord’s Prayer, my favorite by Kedroff (I used to sing this).

Aside from very small sections on YouTube I can’t find any Divine Liturgy videos at the moment. There are a lot of audio files around though, such as at this page.

An old set of introductory videos here, if your connection can handle them.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

actually I’m in Virginia and we have a 1% Turkish population and I’m hoping to work with refugees in my city pretty soon we have Ahiskas here. Yes I am aware that he was not in communion with Rome but I still find this story very compelling so he’s my Turkish Saint. To me the fact that he wasn’t in communion with Rome is a very minor thing I mean it’s not something I would do myself but still doesn’t take away his bravery or diminish his martyrdom in my view.

the Ukranians have a parish Holy Trinity that is listed in Silver Spring Maryland, and a St. Michael’s in Baltimore.

The Melkites have a parish in McLean Virginia.

melkite.org/parishinfo.html

I assume you would know, from what you have written, where the Maronites are.

I may be wrong, but I think the other Easterners are too miniscule here, although some mission of some sort or another might be in D.C.

 

[Aydan]

yes I do know some basic information about the Maronites and I am somewhat familiar with their tradition. McLean Virginia is all the way on the other side of the state compared to where I am. Unfortunately

the Ukranians have a parish Holy Trinity that is listed in Silver Spring Maryland, and a St. Michael’s in Baltimore.

The Melkites have a parish in McLean Virginia.

melkite.org/parishinfo.html

I assume you would know, from what you have written, where the Maronites are.

I may be wrong, but I think the other Easterners are too miniscule here, although some mission of some sort or another might be in D.C.

 

[Aydan]

errrrr I cannot read tonight actually I’m not familiar with that tradition I am familiar with Maronites.

yes I do know some basic information about the Maronites and I am somewhat familiar with their tradition. McLean Virginia is all the way on the other side of the state compared to where I am. Unfortunately

 

[Dan-Man916]

Well, I am not about to be changing rites or converting to orthodoxy, but this particular point has had a great impact on my faith:

1. I retain the good things that are Latin, but appreciate the Eastern understanding more.

As a latin rite Catholic, I have a deeper understanding beacuse i ahve been able to learn more about Eastern Catholicism, in particular, of the Byzantines. By comparing and contrasting the ways in which both traditions express the faith, it has given me a deeper appreciation of my faith as a latin rite Catholic.

Since I was born and raised Roman Catholic, it is a part of whom I am. So eventhough I am drawn to the beauty of the eastern liturgy, i will always be western. It is just a part of my identity.