On the Fence

[Isa_Almisry]

What do you mean, what’s up? Do the Orthodox commemorate post-schism Catholic martyrs?

The impression I get is that the Aydin is getting a lot of flack in a Latin church. Since Churches I’ve been to, of ethnicities known for having a blood hatred of Turks (I have to admit, I’m not very fond of them. Something I have to work on) but have actually had a number of Turkophiles, it just strikes me as odd that a Western church would have such Turkophobia.

The Greek rite (I don’t think the Vatican has a patriarchate in Constantinople or Athens) under Rome commemorates Ahmed

rumkatkilise.org/byzlinks.htm

That Ahmed is a post-schism Orthodox martyr take up with the Vatican.

 

[Aydan]

yes that’s an understatement. I am all too aware that St. Ahmed is not in communion with the church and he is Orthodox and yes I’m even aware that he was not in communion with the Vatican but at this point that doesn’t really matter to me anyway. Considering every time I turn around I have to constantly defend Turks I read his story I find them to be very inspirational and that’s all that matters to me. I mean I have to fight everything else and we have few if any in the Latin Church I figured I might as well choose him since any of them I choose people are going to be opposed anyway. Ah the joys of being a Latin rite Catholic is just easier to go pray on my own before mass to honor them.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

yes that’s an understatement. I am all too aware that St. Ahmed is not in communion with the church and he is Orthodox and yes I’m even aware that he was not in communion with the Vatican but at this point that doesn’t really matter to me anyway. Considering every time I turn around I have to constantly defend Turks I read his story I find them to be very inspirational and that’s all that matters to me. I mean I have to fight everything else and we have few if any in the Latin Church I figured I might as well choose him since any of them I choose people are going to be opposed anyway. Ah the joys of being a Latin rite Catholic is just easier to go pray on my own before mass to honor them.

It doesn’t seem to matter to those Greeks under the Vatican, because as their web site shows, he is on their calendar.

 

[Aydan]

yeah that’s how I found out about him was through the Greeks and you can bet on his feast day I will be tuning in to a Greek divine liturgy Latin Catholic not withstanding! Thanks for the info I appreciate it.

It doesn’t seem to matter to those Greeks under the Vatican, because as their web site shows, he is on their calendar.

 

[Ghosty]

St. Ahmed was an Ottoman Constinopolitan Orthodox. Why would he be on the Latin calendar?

It’s not a matter of him being unworthy, nor of Latin animosity; it’s a matter of him being totally unrelated to anything in the Latin tradition. Byzantines don’t commemorate the Nagasaki Martyrs, why would the Latins commemorate St. Ahmed?

Peace and God bless!

 

[Dennis_Ramos]

To all eastern and western rite catholics (orthodox) , instead of debating on the issue of spiritual enrichment the answer to the issue at hand is as follows: If you don’t know your past , then you can’t possibly know your future , respect all traditions through prayer and true devotion , in spirit and truth as the Lord teaches.:juggle: :juggle:

 

[Peter_J]

St. Ahmed was an Ottoman Constinopolitan Orthodox. Why would he be on the Latin calendar?

It’s not a matter of him being unworthy, nor of Latin animosity; it’s a matter of him being totally unrelated to anything in the Latin tradition. Byzantines don’t commemorate the Nagasaki Martyrs, why would the Latins commemorate St. Ahmed?

Peace and God bless!

Why not?

 

[Peter_J]

It doesn’t seem to matter to those Greeks under the Vatican, because as their web site shows, he is on their calendar.

You mean like a crypt church?

 

[ASimpleSinner]

The impression I get is that the Aydin is getting a lot of flack in a Latin church. Since Churches I’ve been to, of ethnicities known for having a blood hatred of Turks (I have to admit, I’m not very fond of them. Something I have to work on) but have actually had a number of Turkophiles, it just strikes me as odd that a Western church would have such Turkophobia.

And you base this on the anecdotal evidence presented here by one poster?

The Greek rite (I don’t think the Vatican has a patriarchate in Constantinople or Athens) under Rome commemorates Ahmed

rumkatkilise.org/byzlinks.htm

That Ahmed is a post-schism Orthodox martyr take up with the Vatican.

And I was discussing the Universal Calendar of the Roman Church.

I can name any number of Dominican, Franciscan, and Mercedarian martyrs to Islam - some in Turkey no less… And they do not make the daily Universal Calendar, (most are on the calendars of their respective religous orders)… But one is free to commemorate them.

Don’t trifle and cause needless division and controversy here Isa. There is a simple enough reason that the Turkish martyrs - like so many tens of thousands of martyrs and saints - aren’t on the calendar, and it has nothing to do with the Latin Church being “Anti-turk”… So let’s not seize upon and fan the flames of discontent over some false premise.

As to the contention that “the Latin Church” is less open than the East… I find that odd in the most extreme way. Although the reduction of “the Latins” (a throw back to the Imperium to be sure) is convienant and expedient enough, within the folds of the Catholic Church you will find manifold spiritualities that are appreciated from East to West, North to South… You will find iconography in Latin Churches, you will find Latins who pray the Jesus prayer, you will find monastics and scholars who pour over Eastern and Oriental works, you will find spiritualities and theologies brought into the Church by Evangelical converts to the Church who hasten (rightly) to encourage their brother and sisters to study, study, study the scriptures…

I mean I have to fight everything else and we have few if any in the Latin Church I figured I might as well choose him since any of them I choose people are going to be opposed anyway. Ah the joys of being a Latin rite Catholic is just easier to go pray on my own before mass to honor them.

And what else are you wanting? I am a Greek Catholic. I have a devotion to Saint Gianna Beretta Molla (1922-1962) I don’t very well expect that any time soon she will be put on the Byzantine Calendar or that (even if I were to gift it) any icons of her would be placed for veneration in my parish. So it goes, that does NOT preclude me from having spiritual friendship with her, and it does NOT cause me any alarm or sadness.

Keep spreading the word about the Martyrs of the Ottomoan empire, and keep up your private devotion to Saint Ahmat, and say all the prayers you wish to in Turkish (whose business is it what language you use? Don’t take the nosiness of the people in your parish to be the voice of “the Latin Church!”)… And by all means, I beg, offer a few of those prayers in Turkish for me.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Aydan,

I wish the Latin Church with more accepting of cultural differences like the Eastern churches are

HANDS DOWN, THE LATIN CHURCH IS THE ABSOLUTELY MOST CULTURALLY DIVERSE APOSTOLIC CHURCH IN THE ENTIRE WORLD. I readily admit that and I am not even Latin Catholic. I gather you are not aware that there is a small Latin Catholic community in Turkey.

Here’s something for you to read:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Turkey

Who made that silly comment that the Catholic Church is “Turkophobic?”

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

OK. Sorry to sound papal , but if people want to continue discussing Turkey, can you please do it on another thread.

Humbly,
Marduk

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Dear brother Aydan,

HANDS DOWN, THE LATIN CHURCH IS THE ABSOLUTELY MOST CULTURALLY DIVERSE APOSTOLIC CHURCH IN THE ENTIRE WORLD. I readily admit that and I am not even Latin Catholic. I gather you are not aware that there is a small Latin Catholic community in Turkey.

Here’s something for you to read:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Turkey

Who made that silly comment that the Catholic Church is “Turkophobic?”

Blessings,
Marduk

Amen. Amen. Amen.

I rather wish that we had Blessed Lucio of Savoy on the Universal Roman Calendar…

 

[Aydan]

no problem I’m done discussing it I’m sorry I ever brought it up franklyas I’ve said before do I expect the church to change for me no can I say I feel good about being a part of the Latin rite I used to but now I’m not so sure. Like I said it’s a private matter now

OK. Sorry to sound papal , but if people want to continue discussing Turkey, can you please do it on another thread.

Humbly,
Marduk

 

[ASimpleSinner]

no problem I’m done discussing it I’m sorry I ever brought it up franklyas I’ve said before do I expect the church to change for me no can I say I feel good about being a part of the Latin rite I used to but now I’m not so sure. Like I said it’s a private matter now

I really - having read all the thread - am confused as to why this causes you to feel ill at ease with being a part of the Western Church… Especially when the doors are wide open in the modern Catholic Church to embrace and examine pluriform traditions.

 

[Aydan]

tha’st just it I’m having doubts but I believe strongly in the papacy besides I don’t have any Eastern Churchs in my area so I really have no choice because I want to remain Catholic so I feel I have to stay in the Latin Church.But anyway let’s drop the subject because I know there are some objections here so I think it’s better that we drop the subject. The best thing I not do is just keep the Turkish stuff to myself and pray privately I feel like that is the only solution.

I really - having read all the thread - am confused as to why this causes you to feel ill at ease with being a part of the Western Church… Especially when the doors are wide open in the modern Catholic Church to embrace and examine pluriform traditions.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

You mean like a crypt church?

Acctually, having talked to some…

 

[Isa_Almisry]

And you base this on the anecdotal evidence presented here by one poster?

I am just responding to what he (?) said about his experiences. I’ve been to Latin churches in the Turkish republic, many in fact. (I am particlarly glad some Christians are in Ephesus, for instance) That’s partly why I am suprised at what I am reading.

And I was discussing the Universal Calendar of the Roman Church.

OK.

I can name any number of Dominican, Franciscan, and Mercedarian martyrs to Islam - some in Turkey no less… And they do not make the daily Universal Calendar, (most are on the calendars of their respective religous orders)… But one is free to commemorate them.

OK.

Don’t trifle and cause needless division and controversy here Isa.

I’ve done nothing of the sort.

There is a simple enough reason that the Turkish martyrs - like so many tens of thousands of martyrs and saints - aren’t on the calendar, and it has nothing to do with the Latin Church being “Anti-turk”

I didn’t say it was, just voiced my surprise at why the OP is saying is his experience in a Latin church in the US of all places.

… So let’s not seize upon and fan the flames of discontent over some false premise.

Haven’t done anything of the sort.

As to the contention that “the Latin Church” is less open than the East… I find that odd in the most extreme way. Although the reduction of “the Latins” (a throw back to the Imperium to be sure) is convienant and expedient enough, within the folds of the Catholic Church you will find manifold spiritualities that are appreciated from East to West, North to South… You will find iconography in Latin Churches, you will find Latins who pray the Jesus prayer, you will find monastics and scholars who pour over Eastern and Oriental works, you will find spiritualities and theologies brought into the Church by Evangelical converts to the Church who hasten (rightly) to encourage their brother and sisters to study, study, study the scriptures…

Are you responding to something here, because I don’t know what it is.

I hope you are not describing an Anglican or Unitarian spiritual smagosbord. I trust you aren’t, I am quite sure of that.

 

[Aydan]

Frankly I think the charge about causing a scandal or something was directed at me. with respect to the last one that you didn’t understand I think that was aimed at me because I had stated that the Latin Church does not respect different cultural traditions as much of the Eastern churches do so I think that last response was directly towards my opinion and not yours.

I am just responding to what he (?) said about his experiences. I’ve been to Latin churches in the Turkish republic, many in fact. (I am particlarly glad some Christians are in Ephesus, for instance) That’s partly why I am suprised at what I am reading.

OK.

OK.

I’ve done nothing of the sort.

I didn’t say it was, just voiced my surprise at why the OP is saying is his experience in a Latin church in the US of all places.

Haven’t done anything of the sort.

Are you responding to something here, because I don’t know what it is.

I hope you are not describing an Anglican or Unitarian spiritual smagosbord. I trust you aren’t, I am quite sure of that.

 

[Dennis_Ramos]

Let there be peace on earth , Christians , Christianity , Christ the Saviour , greek,turkish,latin,maronite,melkite,coptic ethiopian,romanian , tradition is tradition , we as Christians (orthodox-eastern catholic) , let us respect and share the respect towards each other , because it is so hard to love and obey , as the Lord taught the 12 apostles , I believe we have to listen to St.Paul , the missionary to all of the gentile believers , G+D bless St.Ahmed. :byzsoc: :knight1:

 

[Aydan]

amen to that! wow I didn’t know they had all of those little faces like that pretty cool. St. Ahmed that was a nice touch too I like that!

Let there be peace on earth , Christians , Christianity , Christ the Saviour , greek,turkish,latin,maronite,melkite,coptic ethiopian,romanian , tradition is tradition , we as Christians (orthodox-eastern catholic) , let us respect and share the respect towards each other , because it is so hard to love and obey , as the Lord taught the 12 apostles , I believe we have to listen to St.Paul , the missionary to all of the gentile believers , G+D bless St.Ahmed. :byzsoc: :knight1: