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AlNg
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You might try reading the documents at the vatican site. This is directly from a document posted there.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...s/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19930624_lebanon_en.html
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http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...s/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19930624_lebanon_en.html
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dvdjs
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I am long familiar with the Balamand Declaration. But you left out extremely important contextual elements.;
It is the missionary work, the aim to convert that is not acceptable. You fragment lends itself to the interpretation that the Eastern Catholic Churches themselves are not acceptable. That is not the case. in fact, the same document has:
Strangely, it took many years for our separated brethren to confirm this item at least in principle. Still a ways ot go on the ground.
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AlNg
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Then why did you say you haven’t heard that before? And of course, the declaration between Pope Francis and Patriarch Kirill said similar:
" It is today clear that the past method of “uniatism”, understood as the union of one community to the other, separating it from its Church, is not the way to re–establish unity. Nonetheless, the ecclesial communities which emerged in these historical circumstances have the right to exist and to undertake all that is necessary to meet the spiritual needs of their faithful, while seeking to live in peace with their neighbours."
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dvdjs
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Because i have always heard it in its full context that make the meaning clear and dispels possible false interpretations. I think if you search the archives, you will see my discussion of this declaration and this passage from years ago.
Partriarch Kyrill’s words are welcome. It took him a long, long time after Balamand to say them. I hope that he means them, and wish these words would show some fruit in his interactions with Greek Catholic Churches in Russia and Ukraine.
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AlNg
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They are?
I thought that Primate of the Greek-Catholic Church of Ukraine , Sviatoslav Shevchuk said: “Undoubtedly, the text of the joint statement has caused deep disappointment among many faithful of our Church and among conscientious citizens of Ukraine.”
It was reported that:
<<<The Archbishop Shevchuk said that many Ukrainians felt “betrayed by the Vatican” and were disappointed by the “half truths” in the document. They said they even saw it as “indirect support by the Apostolic See for Russian aggression against Ukraine.”>>>
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dvdjs
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Can you please quote in context.
Do you really think that the Archbishop was disappointed with the the statement that Greek Catholic Churches have the right to exist? Not a bit.
I could rattle off the top of my head the two key matters of contention and disappointment. Instead I ask you to do it. It is important not to proof text but to tell the whole story.
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AlNg
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OK:
Here is the link to the declaration:
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...ed-by-pope-francis-and-patriarch-kirill-61341
Here is the link to the report on the reaction of His Beatitude Sviatoslav:
Here is what is reported on the website of His Beatitude Sviatoslav:
«Встреча, которая не состоялась?» – Блаженнейший Святослав
12 февраля в главном аэропорту Гаваны имени Хосе Марти состоялась встреча Глав двух Церквей – Папы Франциска и Патриарха Кирилла. Встреча проходила в закрытом режиме. Она продолжалась более двух часов.
news.ugcc.ua
Anyone can read these and decide for themselves if what I wrote was true or not.
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Athanasiy
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The meeting of the Pontiff with Cyril in fact saved Putin’s Russia from complete isolation.
Pope Francis is a pastor, not a politician, and Moscow is well aware of it. Pontiff is formed in Latin America, and may be does not understand the situation in Eastern Europe and never came in direct contact with the “secrets of the Kremlin court”. It’s just an opinion.
It seems to me that the John Paul the Second, who like his predecessors wanted to meet Cyril, the rhetoric of communication would be much tougher in statements and evaluations.
Of course “war is evil” , “war is absolute evil” , but explain to me - is it not a sacred duty of the citizen/soldier to protect his country from invaders?
Pope Francis is a pastor, not a politician, and Moscow is well aware of it. Pontiff is formed in Latin America, and may be does not understand the situation in Eastern Europe and never came in direct contact with the “secrets of the Kremlin court”. It’s just an opinion.
It seems to me that the John Paul the Second, who like his predecessors wanted to meet Cyril, the rhetoric of communication would be much tougher in statements and evaluations.
Of course “war is evil” , “war is absolute evil” , but explain to me - is it not a sacred duty of the citizen/soldier to protect his country from invaders?
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Ridgerunner
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I imagine Pope Francis understands the reality of it, and the fact that there are two competing views of “Christian Unity”. Pope Francis undoubtedly would like to see reunion on some reasonable basis. Patriarch Kirill would like to see the Latin Church and the Catholic Byzantine Church disappear entirely, subsumed into Orthodoxy.
I doubt Pope Francis had any illusions about Patriarch Kirill. Patriarch Kirill’s own words define him.
I doubt Pope Francis had any illusions about Patriarch Kirill. Patriarch Kirill’s own words define him.
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dvdjs
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What you say is true. But you leave too much out.
There were two problems raised by those who criticized the joint statement.
- The use of the term “ecclesiastical communities”. Moscow is not ready to use the term “Church” to refer to us. Some felt the Pope should have demanded that language, as used in the Catholic church, and rejected the communication without it.
- The overall discussion expressed hope for peace in Ukraine in language that, diplomatically, avoided recognizing Russia as the wrongful and aggressor party.
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AlNg
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If you read what was said on the UGCC website you will see:
– Из нашего многолетнего опыта можно сказать: когда Ватикан и Москва организуют встречи или подписывают какие-то совместные тексты, то нам нечего ожидать от этого чего-то хорошего.
And
– Бесспорно, этот текст вызвал глубокое разочарование среди многих верующих нашей Церкви да и просто неравнодушных граждан Украины. Сегодня многие обращались ко мне по этому поводу и говорили, что чувствуют себя преданными Ватиканом, разочарованным половинчатостью правды в этом документе и даже косвенной поддержкой со стороны Апостольской Столицы агрессии России против Украины. Я, конечно, понимаю эти чувства.
Why should this be left out?
«Встреча, которая не состоялась?» – Блаженнейший Святослав
12 февраля в главном аэропорту Гаваны имени Хосе Марти состоялась встреча Глав двух Церквей – Папы Франциска и Патриарха Кирилла. Встреча проходила в закрытом режиме. Она продолжалась более двух часов.
news.ugcc.ua
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dvdjs
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And?
I think your quote illustrates the point of leaving too much out…
Why was there disappointment?
For the reasons that i mentioned and not because of the Partriarch’s long overdue statement that Greek Catholic Churches have a right to exist.
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Athanasiy
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Kirill, is not the head of world Orthodoxy, he is the head of the ROC.
For the Russian Federation is now almost the only way - to translate the war in Ukraine in the religious format. Then they opened the prospects to reject a Ukrainian identity, and Ukrainian statehood.
The majority of Christians in Ukraine consider themselves UOC-Kyivan Patriarchate, and this is the strongest factor. It is not negotiable. Moscow speaks about “schismatic groups” but in independent Ukraine there is the largest ecclesial community - the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Kyivan Patriarchate, and it is an accomplished historical fact.
Community of the UGCC is one of the largest Church communities, but not the biggest one.
For the Russian Federation is now almost the only way - to translate the war in Ukraine in the religious format. Then they opened the prospects to reject a Ukrainian identity, and Ukrainian statehood.
The majority of Christians in Ukraine consider themselves UOC-Kyivan Patriarchate, and this is the strongest factor. It is not negotiable. Moscow speaks about “schismatic groups” but in independent Ukraine there is the largest ecclesial community - the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Kyivan Patriarchate, and it is an accomplished historical fact.
Community of the UGCC is one of the largest Church communities, but not the biggest one.
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AlNg
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Is this church recognized as licit by the canonical Eastern Orthodox Churches in communion with His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew or by His Holiness Patriarch Kirill ?
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Athanasiy
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Ukrainian Orthodox Church is not recognized by the Russian Orthodox Church but the same as other communities it is included in the universal Orthodoxy.
There are also Аvtokefaliya and Autonomous Orthodox communities in Ukraine.
There are communities which are Konstantinopolsky Patriarchate and there are those who belong to the Moscow Patriarchate.
Among the Moscow Patriarchate there are moderate followers(among which there are even Ukrainian patriots) and there are those whom I call “Orthodox Taliban”. They are for Orthodox state( something kind of similar to Iran, but in Christian Orthodox application), and they are against “Euro-Sodom”(as they call the EU)
There are also Аvtokefaliya and Autonomous Orthodox communities in Ukraine.
There are communities which are Konstantinopolsky Patriarchate and there are those who belong to the Moscow Patriarchate.
Among the Moscow Patriarchate there are moderate followers(among which there are even Ukrainian patriots) and there are those whom I call “Orthodox Taliban”. They are for Orthodox state( something kind of similar to Iran, but in Christian Orthodox application), and they are against “Euro-Sodom”(as they call the EU)
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Athanasiy
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There is even a Romanian part of Ukrainian Bukovina, which belongs to the Moscow Patriarchate.
In Bukovina they have several Romanian monasteries, including one where the caregivers-monks take care of several hundred disabled children and children with AIDS.
Bancheny monastery engaged in agriculture, and has a huge farm. In addition to the old Slavonic and Russian language, there are services in Romanian.
With “charity” here, all is at the highest level, hotel and food for all pilgrims free of charge, but in the sermons here are often reminded about fraternal murderous war, that the Antichrist is coming (for the reason that Ukraine has taken a course to the West)
I personally believe that its very unhealthy when the head of the monastery calls to beware of biometric passports, constantly says about the approaching end of the world and apocalipsa, assures that Ukraine joined in a brothers-murderous war, and is in the hands of the Antichrist.
In Bukovina they have several Romanian monasteries, including one where the caregivers-monks take care of several hundred disabled children and children with AIDS.
Bancheny monastery engaged in agriculture, and has a huge farm. In addition to the old Slavonic and Russian language, there are services in Romanian.
With “charity” here, all is at the highest level, hotel and food for all pilgrims free of charge, but in the sermons here are often reminded about fraternal murderous war, that the Antichrist is coming (for the reason that Ukraine has taken a course to the West)
I personally believe that its very unhealthy when the head of the monastery calls to beware of biometric passports, constantly says about the approaching end of the world and apocalipsa, assures that Ukraine joined in a brothers-murderous war, and is in the hands of the Antichrist.
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Athanasiy
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Athanasiy
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The Economy in Kaliningrad Is So Bad That One Mayor Put His Town Hall Up for Sale
One Kaliningrad mayor found a creative way to help his town weather Western sanctions and Russia’s economic woes.
foreignpolicy.com
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Athanasiy
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Athanasiy
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The devout elderly people in Western Ukraine, Caucasus, Central Asia will tell you that historically -atheism, drunkeness, immorality, godlessness -always comes from Russia.
Even today, just look at the statistics of abandoned children, children of alcoholism, abortion, - Russia is breaking all records.
(In Eastern Ukraine such high statistics there is only where most of the Russian population, and where Communist atheism has won the greatest victories)
The Russians are the only Slavic nation that does not have their carols. And only in the early twentieth century it was created by some author and translations of carols that you can easily find on the Internet. However, the people they never met, but closer to the New year, the Russians sang “Oseni”, which is nothing to do with carols.
I understand that such information may cause some resentment, so I will refer to the authorities. "Short literary Russian encyclopedia:
«КОЛЯДКИ – святочные народные песни. К. широко распространены у украинцев, в меньшей мере у белоруссов, у русских встречаются сравнительно редко и то большей частью в виде так наз. «виноградья», т. е. в виде величальных песен с традиционным припевом: «виноградье, красно-зелено мое» (колядки у русских по-видимому вытеснены вследствие особо сильной борьбы с ними церкви и правительства)».
«Энциклопедический словарь Ф. Брокгауза и И. Ефрона»: «Коляда – цикл народных рождественских праздников, игр и песен. Малорусская колядка…. примыкает к малорусскому же узкому значению слова Коляда. Слово К. происходит от греческого καλάνδαι и латинского calendae и встречается у всех народов, находившихся под прямым или косвенным влиянием Рима».
Толковый словарь Ушакова: «Коляда – рождественский обряд, преим. на Украине, сопровождающийся песнями и обходом соседей (теперь исчезнувший»)
«Словарь иностранных слов, вошедших в состав русского языка» (Павленков Ф., 1907): «КОЛЯДА – святки в Малороссии и Белоруссии».
Энц. словарь Ф. Брокгауза и И. Ефронa: «Благосклонное внимание богов, с языческой точки зрения, обуславливалось надлежащим их угощением, жертвоприношениями; отсюда обрядовое употребление хлеба, каши, но особенно свиньи… Последнее поверье приводит нас к культу предков, который рельефно выступает в рождественской обрядности Малороссии и Белоруссии. В «свят вечир» (канун Рождества) вечерний ужин, состоящий в Лубенском уезде, главным образом, из кутьи (ячная, изредка пшеничная) и узвара (отвар сушеных плодов), имеет семейный и в частности поминальный характер».
The same applies to “shedrivka”(other Christmas carols) Russians dont have them too:
«Вне пределов Белоруссии и Малороссии нет и термина щедривка или ему соответствующего. Лучшие колядки сохранились в Галиции у карпатских горцев».
Великорусские колядки сравнительно редки»…
As we can see “a Christmas Carol” – not even belong to the Russian vocabulary.
On the video you see the carols traditions in Ukraine.
People from all over Ukraine come to Lviv and Western Ukraine for Christmas, because nowhere else celebrates Christmas like in Galicia and the Carpathians.
Even today, just look at the statistics of abandoned children, children of alcoholism, abortion, - Russia is breaking all records.
(In Eastern Ukraine such high statistics there is only where most of the Russian population, and where Communist atheism has won the greatest victories)
The Russians are the only Slavic nation that does not have their carols. And only in the early twentieth century it was created by some author and translations of carols that you can easily find on the Internet. However, the people they never met, but closer to the New year, the Russians sang “Oseni”, which is nothing to do with carols.
I understand that such information may cause some resentment, so I will refer to the authorities. "Short literary Russian encyclopedia:
«КОЛЯДКИ – святочные народные песни. К. широко распространены у украинцев, в меньшей мере у белоруссов, у русских встречаются сравнительно редко и то большей частью в виде так наз. «виноградья», т. е. в виде величальных песен с традиционным припевом: «виноградье, красно-зелено мое» (колядки у русских по-видимому вытеснены вследствие особо сильной борьбы с ними церкви и правительства)».
«Энциклопедический словарь Ф. Брокгауза и И. Ефрона»: «Коляда – цикл народных рождественских праздников, игр и песен. Малорусская колядка…. примыкает к малорусскому же узкому значению слова Коляда. Слово К. происходит от греческого καλάνδαι и латинского calendae и встречается у всех народов, находившихся под прямым или косвенным влиянием Рима».
Толковый словарь Ушакова: «Коляда – рождественский обряд, преим. на Украине, сопровождающийся песнями и обходом соседей (теперь исчезнувший»)
«Словарь иностранных слов, вошедших в состав русского языка» (Павленков Ф., 1907): «КОЛЯДА – святки в Малороссии и Белоруссии».
Энц. словарь Ф. Брокгауза и И. Ефронa: «Благосклонное внимание богов, с языческой точки зрения, обуславливалось надлежащим их угощением, жертвоприношениями; отсюда обрядовое употребление хлеба, каши, но особенно свиньи… Последнее поверье приводит нас к культу предков, который рельефно выступает в рождественской обрядности Малороссии и Белоруссии. В «свят вечир» (канун Рождества) вечерний ужин, состоящий в Лубенском уезде, главным образом, из кутьи (ячная, изредка пшеничная) и узвара (отвар сушеных плодов), имеет семейный и в частности поминальный характер».
The same applies to “shedrivka”(other Christmas carols) Russians dont have them too:
«Вне пределов Белоруссии и Малороссии нет и термина щедривка или ему соответствующего. Лучшие колядки сохранились в Галиции у карпатских горцев».
Великорусские колядки сравнительно редки»…
As we can see “a Christmas Carol” – not even belong to the Russian vocabulary.
On the video you see the carols traditions in Ukraine.
People from all over Ukraine come to Lviv and Western Ukraine for Christmas, because nowhere else celebrates Christmas like in Galicia and the Carpathians.
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